SDHC Reliability
 

OK, I've been reading for weeks about the various SDHC cards and adapters. It seems like some work for some and not for others and vice versa. Is there a setup that is generally regarded as the most reliable? I'm thinking of using the new Sony adapter with the Sandisk Class 6 or 10 card like they recommend....either a 16gb or 32gb.....Help?

been trying to find out the same thing ,some say yes some say no :(

I think what may be forgotten a little in all the discussion and agonising over the risk/cost analysis of media is the manufacturer's advice which essentially says anything other than SxS or SxS-1 cards are, and I quote:

"...recommended for emergency use only."

I suppose some argue it's marketing spiel designed to sure up SxS sales - the point remains if you are a professional relying on the tools and you seek support from your dealer or Sony centre in the event of problems you may have little recourse using the 'emergency media'.

What I can say, is even after the organisation I work for set-up XDCAM EX media resource, with all the recommended Sony media we still had a serious failure that forced the use of a back-up camera. I'm still working through the anomaly - disappointed it appeared, but I can guess what Sony/dealer's response would be if we'd gone SDHC or third-party adaptors.

So,

It comes back to the very same thing that was discussed when we were initially testing the SDHC solution 2 years ago.

Use the best cards you can (I use the same Sandisk Class 4 cards I bought long ago), test them, and if you are recording material that you CANNOT lose, record redundantly just like you would with any other mission critical recording. When I shoot live events, I record with more than one camera, more than one mic, and more than 1 light if light is REQUIRED.

If you walk the razors edge, eventually you'll get cut.

I can genuinely recommend the MxM - ATP Pro 32GB combo.

Been shooting on MxM lockables and ATP 16gb cards for 9 or 10 months now, and no problems at all. And 7 months of that was on the old firmware.

I should have added that I've used the MxM with both the Class 6 and Class 10 ATP Pro 32GB cards, and also with the older firmware (1.11) - no problems, either.

I am also using MxM lockables and ATP 16gb cards with old firmware on my EX3, no problems at all.
BUT I use my SxS cards first.

maybe?
 

How about the Hoodman Raw SXSXSDHC system as describe here:
YouTube - RAW SxSxSDHC Memory Adapter
Anybody try these? I read some posts a while back about how good RAW was, but cant find anything recent.

I would not recommend anyone use SD cards for day to day use. You only have to look through this and other forums to find people that have been using a reliable combination of cards and adapters for a few months only to have a sudden out of the blue failure. If you look through the consumer camcorder forums you will also come across media failures, so it's not just an EX thing.

One point to note is how hot the cards get in an EX. Prolonged use at high temperature will accelerate the degradation of any electronics. So I speculate that users using SD cards for long or continuous shots are more likely to experience failures than someone shooting occasional or sporadic shots where the card has more time to cool.

At the end of the day SD cards are consumer media where cost tends to be the overwhelming requirement. They are produced in the millions with only minimal testing. SxS on the other hand was designed from the ground up for professional video applications. In an EX they are not getting stressed at all.

The amount of threads and discussions on SD card reliability compared to the amount of threads about SxS reliability is good indicator of the way things are.

If you look across the forums there tends to be certain trends running across the failures and most of it is down to either cheap cards or bad handling practice. Alot of people are sticking any old SD card into the adaptors and others still insist on using the timebomb Transcend cards. Just because they work doesn't mean they will be reliable. From my own experience of corrupted clips I'm pretty convinced that Transcend cards are sensitive to static shock for example. There is certainly more to a card than just the raw transfer speed and that will be reflected in the price.

People have got to understand that there are just a few brands that are worth using and the limitations of the technology. They also need to be on the latest firmware. If someone doesn't understand the issues around SDHC then they shouldn't be using it.

Lockable adaptors are also important. With the "open" adaptors it is far too easy to accidentally eject a card from the adaptor. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Only buy lockable adaptors and then you can treat the card and adaptor as one. The card goes into the adaptor and stays there until the end of its life.

The ATP cards I've been using operate to a higher spec including higher resistance to ESD and temperature extremes. Yes they cost more, yes they probably are still slightly less reliable than SxS but then again they are still more reliable than the risks associated with tape.

In all the time I've been shooting with ATP cards I've had no restore media messages and no corrupted clips. I also don't recall us having any posts on here from ATP/MXM lockable users with any issues.

Certainly the ATP or Hoodman cards are the only place to look in my opinion as these cards are built to a higher spec and, as you'd expect, cost more. Just because a card "works" doesn't mean it will be reliable.

In most cases a tape issue meant drop outs or glitches in the recording. Much of the recording would still be useable. An SD card failure on the other hand often means the total loss of everything on the card.

A hoodman RAW SDHC 32Gb card and locking adapter works out at about $220 USD compared to a 32Gb SxS-1 at $520. It is a big difference admittedly, but how much do you charge for a job? How much would it cost if you have to re-shoot, what is your reputation worth?

You pays your money, you makes your choice.

That helps reinforce my decision not to buy the MxM adapters just to be able to close the stupid door, but instead to keep my six Kensington adapters.

These have never failed me with either Sandisk Cards or Transcend Class 6 Blue Stripe OR Red Stripe cards. So the door won't close. Big deal. Better airflow.

John

You can always get an EX3 so that
the door closes with Kensingtons.

Right, this is getting silly so rather than deal in heresay and guesswork lets try a few facts:


ATP quote the following key specifications for their Class 6 16gb card:

Waterproof: Yes
Dust Proof: Yes
ESD Proof: Yes
Operating Temp: -25C to 85C
Humidity: 8 - 95 % non-condensing
Number of insertions: 10,000 minimum
Data retention: 10 years

MxM specs say their adaptors are usable in 0C to 70C between 20% and 85% humidity.

The SxS specifications list -25C to 65C and 95% humidity.


From the specs, an ATP card in an MxM adaptor can actually operate 5 degrees C hotter than an SxS but the SxS can operate in a colder environment.

In conclusion, unless you are in the jungles of Borneo or shooting below freezing, the adaptors are well within spec. If your adaptor was to get as hot as 70C, you'd soon know about it as you wouldn't be able to handle it. And if that happens, the SxS would also be operating outside its specification.

I am curious if any of the UK members have used the Samsung Premium Plus cards. They are a hardened card that appears to only be available in the UK.

Never seen them. Samsung is not regarded as a serious maker of cards over here.

Marcus, those are the environmental conditions the cards are designed to work in. They tell us nothing about how hot the die is getting. SD cards have no heat sinking and are in plastic packaging. Plastic is a good insulator. The actual chip may be running much hotter than you may think, even if it's only for fractions of a second for example when the EX tries to write both the video data, metadata and recovery package.

I've seen a SD card from an EX where the plastic has distorted due to heat. The camera had been used to shoot a play running non stop for almost 2 hours, hot swapping cards. Remarkably the data was still on the card, but it does show how hot they can get.

If you spend $1000 on 64Gb worth of SxS cards then use them for 100 projects or shooting days that's only $10 per shoot. By using SD and adapters you would save a little over $5 per shoot. Is it really worth it? For you own projects, perhaps. But for professional projects, I don't think so.

That shows just how hardy SD cards are. There are well documented cases of people putting SD cards through washing machines, dropping them in the sea or even in one case I just found on Google reversing over their stills camera smashing it to pieces and deforming the card. All the data was recovered.

I've shot many a conference that had hot swapped cards across as much as 8 hours. No issues. If there was I wouldn't be using the cards.

The environmental conditions indicate the temperatures the cards will operate up to. I can't see any cause for concern in those figures at all considering that the SD card combos appear to be slightly more resilient to heat than a SxS card.

About a year ago I did speak to a guy who had an EX1 that did get far hotter than my own. Turned out it was one of the first EX1's when they first came to market. He'd also had a number of other issues with it.

If any of my SDHC combos suddenly decide to melt, fail, explode or chase the cat, rest assured I'll post on here straight away.

And while this debate continues yet another "Help I've lost my footage to an SD card" thread gets started.

They are one of the most common threads on these boards.

I don't even think about my media, I just chuck my SxS cards in the camera knowing they will work, there's enough stress in this business as there is without having even the tiniest amount of uncertainty about media to add to the mix.

And the media in question? A Transcend card that I and other posters have been warning people about for the past 10 months. Despite popular belief, they are trash. We know they lose footage, I've seen it myself twice. If you go back and look at the people who've had problems (removing user error which is now greatly reduced with the new firmware) the majority are people using unsupported cards or Transcend units. Remember it is perfectly possible to corrupt an SxS card with user error or because of a camera problem. A quick Google search reveals it's actually a fairly common problem.

People think SDHC solutions are an excuse to "cheap out". Cheap SD cards are a bad move and a move that will bite the user on the backside. But what about those of us who want to have a large number of cards on the go at once? Clearly having 10 SxS cards is a large outlay, but a quality SDHC card in an adaptor allows you to keep that number of cards on the go for a lower cost. And if you do it right it is reliable and works really well.

Not all SDHC cards are born equal, but the Class ratings make people believe otherwise. There's far more to a card than just the speed. And if people don't understand that, you are right, they should be using SxS.

The two ugly words in all of this are 'third party'. If you use the latest EX1/EX3 firmware in which Sony made some significant timing changes with respect to SD card handling AND you use the Sony MEADS SD adapter AND you use a high quality CLASS 10 SD card such as Sandisc, you shouldn't have any problems. Sony specifically recommends using Class 10 cards. If you use a third party adapter along with a slower SD card such as a Class 4 or 6, good luck; you're going to need it. I and several associates use this combination with no problems.

Just tried the Class 10 Transcend 16GB cards. I got them from Newegg.

Newegg.com - Transcend 16GB Secure Digital High-Capacity (SDHC) Flash Card Model TS16GSDHC10

They worked flawlessly just like my Class 6 Red and Blue stripe Transcend cards do. I put them in the camera and let them roll until the time ran out. No errors.

I originally had ordered blue stripe Class 6 Transcend cards from the BUYDIG website, but they sent Red Stripe ones instead.
http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=TS16GSDHC6
I sent them back just in case newer Red stripe ones have been the issue here. The Class 10 cards were around the same price anyway. They worked for me in my Kensington adapters with firmware 1.11 on my EX1.

This is just to add to the record. I am not one of these people who likes to suggest that if I am not having a problem you shouldn't either.

Of course let's not forget what started all this a few years ago. It was Sony's attempt at price gouging the cost of SxS media that started the search for a more reasonable solution. If a Transcend or Sandisk 16GB card costs $40 - $80 what should a 16GB Sony SxS card cost? Twice as much? Maybe three times as much? But no, they were 20 times as much when they first came out.

I don't always believe in "You get what you pay for" as a reliable credo. It also depends upon monopolies and "whatever the market will bear". Genuine Inkjet cartridges are a classic example of this.

John

Marcus had written a superb piece that encapsulates the whole SDHC scene as of now. I am not sure how to direct anyone to it but his website will no doubt refer to his blog.

Amen to that! Their pricing is over the top. The issue of using SD cards is all about margins. I'm sure there are other solutions that do the job. The Sony SD MEADS adapter coupled with SanDisk Class 10 cards along with the latest firmware is a safe solution with sufficient performance margin to perform reliably.

Let's not forget that the SxS cards were 1/3 the cost of Panasonic's P2 cards when they arrived on the scene. 1hr of SxS was about $900, while 1hr's worth of P2 was ~$3k. Even comparing on a per/GB basis, SxS was cheaper.

So yes, doing SDHC was tons cheaper, and I went that way immediately, I also appreciated the fact that Sony had released a media that was so much cheaper than it's competition's, it forced Panasonic to cut their margins drastically on those cards.

It's abit buried away on the site. The article URL is currently - SDHC Choice for the Sony EX1 | Media2u Video Production Blog

This might have to change in the near future as I want to ditch Wordpress and have just one site (the Wordpress bit is all rather badly bolted on). If I do this I'll shout on here as it's amazing how many phonecalls and emails I get regarding the SDHC stuff, sadly usually from people who have had problems due to using the wrong media.

I have not tried the Sony adaptor as yet, but last time I looked it wasn't widely available. I will test it at somepoint.

People need to make their own decisions when it comes to shooting on SDHC or other media. All I'm trying to do is guide people through the minefield of SDHC so they don't have the same problems finding information that I did when I first got my EX1.

With your guidance Marcus I for one went with the MxM ATP combo.

One could also interpret that as: "Who was the bigger thief" ?

Both ended up cutting the margins with the advent of SDHC solutions. I have no idea what the markup was / is for SxS and P2 cards. But I don't think it would be a stretch to surmise that it was outrageous and possibly still is.

John

You should be fine - my own experience with MxM and ATP is also flawless.

Glad to hear that Piotr.

Sony are still up to their tricks with their SDHC adaptor as I was looking at buying one in for review purposes.

£70 ex VAT UK price compared to £35 for an MxM from the same retailer. I was prepared for £45 or £50, but £70? Either there is a substantial difference in the internals of these adaptors or they have very high markup.

And I don't accept the "cost of research and development line", MxR & MxM have done all the R+D on this occasion and yet they are selling their adaptors for half the price.

I only paid £14 each for my four Kensington adapters. Never had any problems with them either. £35 for a holder is also bit steep, no public comment on the Sony one at £70

I can attest to the reliability of the MxM and ATP 16GB class 6 combo. I've shot about 10 weddings on these cards, which basically involves running the camera for 8 hours straight and filling up each card. I've given them a pretty good workout and had ZERO problems.

I can't speak about the Kensington adaptors, but the latest MxM adaptors I've tested were faster than the first adaptors I purchased. My tests on the old firmware revealed a difference of between 6 to 8 frames per second which meant more headroom.

I'm sure either of the two adaptor manufacturers for the EX series can probably confirm their latest cards probably have subtle differences from the Kensington's in performance and in the internal design.

As for price, Kensington will have a far larger market and can leverage this for a low price point. It's like when you have DVD's produced, a large quantity is far cheaper per unit.

It is quite conceivable that a user will not be able to afford enough SxS cards to shoot long enough to go without downloading until they are in good conditions. That could force a download situation in circumstances where attention would be better spent on other matters. Using SDHC may allow enough memory to be bought to avoid that situation, it can also enable the possibility of workflows such as shoot to SDHC, hand over card with rushes at end of shoot.

When "reliability" is spoken of, it's things such as equipment failure which always get thought of first, it's extremely important to also consider human factors. In this case, I suspect more material gets lost through human error than card failure, be they SxS or SDHC.

At least anyone with an SxS camera has the choice of which to use, you don't with P2.

I have to follow up on this. After testing these Class 10 16GB Transcend cards at home with no errors I took them on vacation last week and BOTH gave me repeated Media Restore errors. I ended up using my other cards. I am returning them and I would recommend that you not buy them at all.

John

Thanks for letting us know. Out of interest, which firmware are you on?

Thanks for letting us know. Out of interest, which firmware are you on?
======================
Firmware 1.11

John