Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Btw, Pro Res HQ uses a variable bitrate of 176Mb/s at 1080 24p but it tends to fluctuate down 5-10% for normal scenes (versus high motion scenes). 10 bits uses 20% more space to record than 8 bits. So, factor in the 5-10% variance in bitrate (per Apple's whitepaper) and that gets you 158-167 Mb/s. Then, factor in the 10bit overhead and the bitrate drops down to 126-134 Mb/s (using an 8bit video source or an EX1/3 which has enough noise to mitigate the extra 2 bits). This bitrate is variable I-frame so there is less compression than Long-GOP, for example.

Now, compare this to the nanoFlash at 50Mb/s L-GOP and I conclude that both XDCAM 50 and PR HQ are equal in quality with an EX1/3.

Also, realize that the nanoFlash can go far higher than 50Mb/s so the actual image quality can go even higher than any Pro Res recorder.

In case you didn't know, all versions of Pro Res use different bitrates with each framerate and image size . For example, PR HQ uses only 88Mb/s for 720 24p and 220Mb/s for 720 60p.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I prefer the Nano over the samural even though I have not used the samural. The XDCAM Codec is great and at 50, 80, or 100 I like the lower storage needed. But if you dial in your PP right (being an american Luc), you can get by with out it often. But when I fly in the helicopter I use the Nano.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Buck, if you really need to spend some money - get Samurai;
it's hard to tell the diference between native XDCAM and Nano/Samurai footage, and there is no way anybody can tell nano from samurai; it's10 bit ( though you won't see the difference), better media, very much easier to use, comes with everything you need and it's half the price.
there is also http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/815139-REG/Blackmagic_Design_HyperDeck_Shuttle_SSD_Field.html by Blackmagic you might want to take a look at :)
best

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Sounds to me like I should give the Samural a try. Nice way to mix different cameras keeping it all ProRes.

When you say 1/2 price does that include matching CF cards to Hard drives?

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I strongly recommend you use SSD's in the Samurai and not hard drives. HDD or OK if your on a tripod most of the time, although loud music and other vibration sources can cause them to fail. But HDD's are not as robust as SSD's. Drop one and you risk loosing everything on it.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I will be giving the Samurai a try with a friend on a test shoot.

Makes sense to use SSD over HDD.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I totally agree with Alister, SSD's is the best for samurai, I just gotten my own recently and I have been doing some stress test on the unit to know how hard it can withstand shake and sudden jolt and I discovered on several occassions that it stopped working and I had to do hard restart of the unit. but I must confess i did this on old HDD lying around in my studio. At the moment I am thinking of getting SSD for peace of mind. I think HDD might be good in a situation where you might do dual recording for extra security of footage not necessarily extra advantage that comes with recording uncompressed. I also think that the introduction of Avid DnxHD codec(8 and 10 bits) will be a real game changer for Samurai vs Nano.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Anyone know a way of finding a used nanoflash at a good price?

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

What is considered a good price for a slightly used nanoFlash (including SDI & HDMI cable, usb CF reader, AC power)? I've probably only recorded 40-50 hours total on my nanoFlash aside from several hours of testing with greenscreen and a FS100. However, if I decide to start using a FS100 in more work, I will keep my nanoFlash because I really like the combo.

I have been thinking about selling mine, but I don't think I would get enough money for it to make it worthwhile. (I'm keeping my 64GB Transcend 600x and 32GB Sandisk Extreme cards since I use them with my Canon 5D & 7D)

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Hal here is the link to my ad on DVinfo classified.

Will also send you an email as we discussed on the phone yesterday.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-...sh-extras.html

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

even SSDs are cheaper than CF cards, and we're talking about spinning or hybrid drives, they are way less expensive than compact flash.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Thanks I checked and compared the pricing.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

In terms of reliability, nothing is better than the SxS cards which are designed for one purpose, and one purpose only - to record a constant stream of data.

Anyone who has been a Pro still photog knows that CF cards are not very reliable, which is why Sandisk would include recovery software with their expensive cards up until the last couple years (probably to cut costs).

Consumer SSDs are not designed to write a constant stream of data which is why many do not work reliably for video recording. However, the Enterprise SSDs which use SLC memory are designed for constant writing but cost 3-4 times as much as consumer SSDs with MLC chips.

There is a reason why Arri chose SxS cards for its internal recording and not CF cards or SSDs. Also, look at C-D's Gemini and their custom made SSDs and Red with their custom designed SSDs.

For the utmost reliability, you can't beat a memory device that is custom built for a single purpose.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Good point Steve,

I have recorded over 30 TB with my SxS and not one dropped frame on 6 different cameras. But with CF cards and high quality ones I have had a 30% failure with cards. One of the may reasons to always dual record unless it is SXS cards.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I tend to disagree with this: I've been a professional press and concert photographer, using digital camera's since the very beginning in the year 2000 (Nikon 1D), and on a total of more than 100,000 clicks, I have had only one instance where a CF-card let me down. Unfortunately it was the shoot of the start of the Tour de France in Antwerp, so that was a disaster. But otherwise, I have never had any problems, although some of my shoots were in rather difficult circumstances. 100 pix lost on a total of approx. 100,000... I would call that very reliable anytime.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

You can't base reliability off of your own experience and neither can I. I know a few wedding photographers who use only 4GB cards due to the problems they have experienced and do not want to risk losing more than 4GB of data at a time. For high end video, there are many people who use 2 recording systems because all forms of electronic recording fail - its not a matter of 'IF', its a matter of 'WHEN'. This is one of the main reasons why I use my nanoFlash.

Its very telling when CF manufacturers include recovery software with their products. Now, to save money, they tell their users to download the recovery software from their website rather than include mini CDs with the CF cards.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I have based this opinion not only on my experience, but on that of numerous colleagues and friends, press photographers who also describe the CF-cards they use in their hi-end Canon's and Nikon's as 'very reliable'. Trust me, just as me they earn(ed) their living with these cards and the industry wouldn't tolerate major and frequent failures. Moreover: I would hardly compare a wedding photographer who shoots once a week (if he's lucky) to newspaper guys who shoot every day. Even the cheaper Transcend cards (without recovery software) have never let me down. The only card that ever failed was a Lexar.

That said, SD-cards are a completely different matter: they were designed for amateur use and I wouldn't trust these at all for any professional job: too flimsy.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

You really need to go and look at some of the websites that stress test SD cards for fun some time before making sweeping statements. Just even a cursory search on Youtube shows some very extreme testing. In the sample below while the Sandisk fails at the first hurdle (which granted was firing a bullet at it which shouldn't concern most of us), the Panasonic survives the bullet, being driven over and being baked.

The Most Brutal SD Card Torture Test Ever - YouTube
There were also some very interesting tests I saw last year regarding ATP cards and radiation and magnetism. The cards survived to a level that if the data was erased, frankly your footage would be the last thing you would be worrying about.

"Flimsy" is something that breaks in your hand easily, not something that breaks because it has a bullet fired at it!

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

SD-cards, compared to CF-cards, are very flimsy. Try to break a CF card in two and do the same with an SD card, you'll see what I mean. In my shirt- or back-pocket, an SD-card wouldn't live long. Moreover, SD cards have exposed contacts which makes them even more vulnerable. It's not a coincidence that all pro still camera's use CF-cards for more than a decade now. Only very rarely they also have an SD-slot, for backup, like some Canon 1D's. I do not know one of my friends and colleagues press photographers who would trust an SD card in his camera's. But that's in real everyday life, not a single test.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

"Flimsy" is exactly how I would describe SD cards. In fact, three weeks ago I had a 32GB SDHC card from a major manufacturer literally fall apart. I was using my finger tip (not fingernail) to insert it into a reader when the card split into two halves (like two slices of bread) and my finger went right into the card. After that, the card would not work and I lost about 40 clips. Luckily the camera and lighting was still setup in the studio so it only took a couple of hours to reshoot, but now I am even more wary of using SDHC cards.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Please can you provide details of the card so that others can avoid them?

I must say my EX1 cards never leave their MxM adaptors. Once locked in place they stay in there. But I do have to handle SDHC cards directly for some of my other cameras and can't say that the brands I'm using (mainly ATP with a few Sandisk Extreme's thrown in) have ever felt flimsy. I'm not mad keen on handling them, but that is more down to size. Frankly I'm worried enough when handling any media master, let alone something the size of a postage stamp.

If you are that concerned about the cards breaking I'd suggest one of the professional cards as demoed in that video, possibly the Hoodman which has a steel plate through the middle.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

The card that fell apart on me was an older blue 32GB Hoodman. It is my understanding the new Hoodman's being sold today have been redesigned. I keep each SD card in it's own adapter too, but I have to take them out to go into my reader. That is where the damage occurred.

Also, just for the record, I should say that I generally do not recommend shooting anything important on SDHC cards. I use SxS cards 99% of the time but this just happened to be a long day where I decided to use an SD card instead of erasing an SxS card. That decision cost me two hours of reshooting . . . but I knew that was the risk. If it was for something that could not be done over again, I never would have used the SD card at all.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I think this is also a good reason why large memory cards add more risk such as 64GB SxS cards or 128GB CF cards.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I have been using the 64gb SXS cards since they arrived on the scene and I have not had one bit of information lost. I can't say that about the CF cards I use in my Nanoflash. In fact, on more than occasion once the 64 SXS saved me from totally losing images on the corrupted CF cards.

Luc said that losing in a 100 or a 1000 is great odds. I disagree, because you know that "one shot" is going to be irreplaceable.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

An adaptor costing just a few dollars prevents any direct handling of the card being needed at all and will allow the SDHC adaptor to be plugged directly into the USB port. Hence why my cards have never left their MxM adaptors since they were first put into use.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

[QUOTE=Steve Kalle;1721099]In terms of reliability, nothing is better than the SxS cards which are designed for one purpose, and one purpose only - to record a constant stream of data.

I use PMW-350 and record simultaneous to nano flash and sxs cards and last job i have done the nano flash saved my life because i lost all data on sxs card, nothing in there and when i put it in camera it said (unknown media)... lost everything, and the 450 euro sxs card can be thrown in the trash:-(...
And that's after two years of usage, sxs was beaten by CF in my case. now i have also the FS-100 and i will continue using my trusty nano flash with CF cards and record on both nano and sd on fs100.
Samer

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Marcus,

Thanks for suggestion. However, I have no desire to shoot on any SDHC cards in the future so it doesn't matter at this point. It's SxS or nothing.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Same here. As I bought the PMW-320 only for my hobby, and it's never going to make me any money, I thought buying two adapters and some SDHC cards would save me some money. It did, but I found the use of these flimsy cards so inconsistent with my love and respect for professional solutions, that I invested in 4 SxS cards + a Sony SxS card reader anyway, albeit second hand ones. Now I can use the camera with peace of mind and in a reliable manner. I sold eight of the SDHC cards and kept two for use in pure amateur equipment. That's what they were designed for.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Which CF cards?

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Flash memory wears out. While we were used to older flash memory with 100,000 write cycles, the best flash available in CF cards is now in the sub-10,000 write cycle range. Recent flash cell implementations have 1000-5000 write cycles and , very recently, even 100 write cycles. Flash memory performance (some stalls are 1/3 second) and reliability drop as the card reaches 90% of its capacity. The answer is to use a larger card and avoid filling it up, and that also addresses your concerns with placing more video data on a large card. In practice, it's hard to wear out a card, but my mind is not at ease after reading the tech specs for flash cells.

I could see a market for the industrial grade flash (Single Level Cell - SLC) to be placed in flash cards for customers willing to pay for reliability, but my industry friends tell me that no flash cards (CF, SDHC, etc.) use SLC anymore. Would you be willing to pay 2-3x the price of a top-of-the-line SanDisk Extreme? That would be the same as replacing all of your flash cards more often.

From Sony, I would like to see parallel recording to two cards as an option given that two flash card slots are available on the EX-series.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Dear Friends,

There are special techniques in designing both the hardware and software to ensure that both CompactFlash and SSD's do not slow down as they are filling up.

We have implemented these techniques in both the nanoFlash and Gemini 4:4:4.

When we test both CompactFlash cards and SSD's we test them to very close to 100% capacity.
(In the nanoFlash we reserve just a small amount of memory, since some cards routinely fail if you fill them up 100%.)

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

I have been waiting patiently, but despite dealer suggestions to wait, the expected developments at NAB don't seems to have happened. The only significant change being the software updates allowing the HyperDeck Shuttle to write to ProRes HQ and the Atomos devices to write natively to Avid

Alister's YouTube clip XDCAM 35Mb/s compared to Samurai ProRes HQ - YouTube conclusively shows the benefits of these devices, so herein lies the oft asked question: which recorder to go for?

Currently I'm using an EX3, but an F3 / FS700 is looming. The logical decision on performance with EX3 is the NanoFlash and this would be my choice. However, the price here in the UK is still way out of line (the US$1000 reduction does not seem to have translated) at GBP1995. By comparison, the Samurai comes in at GBP1050 and the HyperDeckShuttle (with battery etc) is GBP450.

All these units need CF / SSD to make them work adding around GBP200-250 to the price of each.

The arguments about 8bit / 10 bit, data rates etc all have validity, especially with the new cameras, but the key point with all these devices is 4:2:2 colour and reduced compression.

Does anyone have experience of the HyperDeck Shuttle with Sony cameras. On specs and price it seems to be the sensible option, if not the most compact.

Nick

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Hi Nick,

I have looked at the Hyperdeck to use with an F3 but the main reason why I do not like it is because it requires a computer to change its settings and to monitor what it is doing.

One important feature to look into is 3:2 pulldown removal. The nanoFlash supports it but other recorders have not like the Ninja.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

As a PAL user pulldown isn't an issue, something I've never had to worry about.

Nick, I think ProRes is only on Hyperdeck studio not the shuttle.

I'm using an EX1 and looking seriously at the FS100, I don't need super slowmo for an additional £2000...
I know it's got SDI and NDs, but a variable ND is actually more flexible I think.
Also the 4k chip means it's likely to be a little worse off in low light.

What about the new Ninja 2? the HDMI out, metadata integration and new screen look great.

(BTW creativevideo have the NF at £1700 all in!)

Duncan.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Thanks Steve and Duncan,

As Duncan says, the pulldown is not a problem. I spoke to BM yesterday and the PR HQ is on Studio and Shuttle 2, so it is an option, but as Steve mentioned usability and also I suspect, dust resistance may not be the finest.

FS100 is interesting, but the SDI and NDs on the FS 700 would be the deal-breaker for me - planning on a zoom + CP2s and they have no thread for Vari-ND. SDI also means Samurai not Ninja. I notice that Alister uses Samurai a lot with his F3

Interested to hear the CV have the price down at last - I was quoted 1900 + VAT by the UK importer today.

Too many choices!

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Nick, I can't find ProRes on the Shuttle2 being mentioned anywhere but here.
Eager to know more.

Is it a future firmware update?

Duncan.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Hi Duncan,

There may be a painful, pregnant pause here: I am sure I read it as Shuttle2 on Monday and product specific email discussions with BM support have not contradicted that. However the release notes say clearly 'Studio' - I am checking with support now

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Actually, the difference between the FS100 and FS700 seems to be £3000... going by the best prices I've found so far.

I'd buy an Atomos HDMI-SDI convertor (runs on SonyNP batteries too), a 4x4 VariND, Screw-on VariND and live with 60p conformed down to 25p for my slo-mo. And still have over £2000 in my pocket (that's $3200 or so)

What else does the FS700 offer... 4k (makes it less sensitive), a better handle... Dunno.

Duncan.

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

Duncan,

My humble apology - I was wrong: the 3.0 software provides ProRes HQ for the Studio model - I'd swear I saw it applied to the Shuttle. Oh well.

Your points about FS100 / 700 are valid and in this climate, £3k is not to be sniffed at. The killer for me is the ability to shoot real stills with the latter (although I need to see examples to be convinced).

Looking forward to comparing the two.

Nick

Re: EX3 nanoflash vs samurai?
 

My initial look at the 100/700 at NAB seems to indicate that the effective speed of both sensors is about the same, in spite of the pixel count difference.
In addition to adding an HD-SDI connector (which will at some point in the future be the 3G source of 4K data) and the ND filters, the 700 has a way of recording a burst of slow motion full 1920/1080 res at 120 or 240fps, as well as at 480 or 960 fps at reduced resolutions.