Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Hi Ron, I'm not disputing any of this, and your explanation is cogent and well-worded. And although I grew tired of having to tweak the NX5 image and do all you described to get it even close to the IQ of my little CX550V, the NX5 is a very solid cam with silky controls and a lot to love. One other thing that I did not like was the tiny 3.2" LCD that did not have as good a display as the other Sont 3.5" LCDs.

The old math guy in me can't help thinking about Nyquist's Theorem, though. I suspect that is partly the reason that cams with sensors with more elements will always have higher resolution (assuming similar DSPs, lenses, etc.) than cams that rely on interpolation with fewer elements. More raw data will win out against interpolation, no matter how fancy the algorithm.

I really like the Sony Exmor-R tech with the Bionz processor. So, this little PMW-100 out to be sharper and have better low-light performance than the NX5 - but it will not have the same telephoto performance, and no matter how good the chip, more glass up front = more light gathering power.

8 days till NAB 2012 - still holding out hope for a New NX5 ... wish I could afford to go!

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Absolutely agree Steve. One reason given for having larger sensors is better low light performance only problem is all my little Sony's have better low light performance than the NX5U !!! Like I said before the weakness in the NX5U are the sensors and I would like 60P and the other touch features of the smaller Sony cams.
Still not sure about the PMW-100. Being suspicious of Sony even though ALL my cameras are Sony , I feel the PMW-100 is another variant on the consumer line with the PMW codecs. Now a 1/2" single sensor in a NX5 body would be something else !!!

Wonder if Sony has anything else to show in the next few weeks.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Sony product brochure courtesy of SlashCam:

http://www.slashcam.de/files/PMW-100_Broschuere.pdf

Has some good details, confirms there is expanded focus and that SD cards can be used if you buy a SxS to SD adapter.

I'm really torn - the ergonomics of this cam look great, has some interesting features such as frame recording, which, if it can be combined with the interval recording *undercranking* will produce much better fast motion than other methods where each interval must contain enough frames for the Long GoP thing...

But I really like 1080 60p! (sob)

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Has full 1920x1080 sensor but like you, wish the rest of the features were like the NX30. Maybe that sensor in the NX5U !!!

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

According to the literature it's a single sensor with 1920 x 1080 pixels which is very disappointing as this means bayer or clear-vid, either way the resolution is likely to be some way below that of an EX1 or EX3.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Not to mention even some of the Sony PS cams do... TX100v/200, HX100v/200v, HX9 & whatever the replacements for that one are...

Actually 1080/60p is pretty impressive from the TX100 considering it's just a point and shoot full auto proposition!

Pretty much any higher end new release Sony has 60p, the new Alphas also have 24p, along with 60p. I believe the NEX cameras do as well.

60p has it's attractions, there's a definite "crispness" about it over 60i. Definite "being there" feeling when played back on a device that can properly handle it, and you can stop and freeze a frame in time...

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

It says effective so no way of knowing if that is the real sensor or after interpolation. Same issue with the NX30 which says 6650k gross 6140k actual, whatever that means !!! That's about 3 times 1920x1080. Be interesting to see how these cameras compare. On the surface I think the NX30 with a Nanoflash may be a better deal !!!

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

60p is also better when trying to show the humidity's affect on truss rods in older neck-through basses...

HA, just kidding. Good to see your post Dave. Long time no speak/type.
I might need to talk with you regarding my bass again. I figure it needs to see the guru once every 10 years or so...
:)

...and while I am excited to see Sony coming out with new cameras. I was really hoping for an EX5 or an NX5 with bigger chips or an FS100 kit with power zoom and a zoom rocker handle like the FS700.
But I guess we still have a few more days...

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Effective Pixels does not normally refer to post de-bayered pixel count. I'm quite sure that if the sensor had a larger pixel count Sony would be boasting about it, after all many people will buy based on getting the largest number of whatever it is.

Even if they are combining several smaller photo sites into a single pixel, the pixel count is still too low for full resolution HD with a single sensor. So as has been suggested by others it's not unreasonable to expect resolution similar to the Canon XF100/105 which also uses a single 1920x1080 sensor.
Effective or actual pixels normally refers to the pixels actually used for image capture. It's quite normal to have extra masked pixels around the edge of the light gathering part to measure sensor noise and voltage levels to asset with noise reduction and black balance. These are not normally included in the "effective" pixel count, but often included in the gross pixel count.

Of course resolution isn't everything. Noise, contrast, dynamic range etc all combine with resolution to produce the image and if all the others are very good, then slightly lower resolution may not be that big an issue. In addition there is still a massive amount of confusion over resolution and image sharpness.

The question raised by the use of a new sensor with 1920x1080 pixels is... where is the camera with 3 of them? A full 1920 x 1080 resolution 3 chip camera, maybe EX1 replacement?

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

It looks a lot like the NX70's design. Why didn't Sony add the dust- and rainproof cover as with the NX70? I do still hope Sony comes with a dust- and rainproof EX1-like camera one day. If they than would even add 50 Mbps you have an ideal Camjo cam which will get popular among camera-journalists around the world.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Or maybe a NX5 replacement.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

If it records to SxS cards using the XDCAM 4:2 :2 codec, then it will be in the XDCAM family of cameras.
If it records to AVCHD, then it will be in the NXCAM family.

I think some of you are missing the big selling point of this camera, which is the XDCAM 50mbps, 4:2:2 codec. This is a broadcast quality codec, in a small camcorder body. I would say it's revolutionary, but it's not - Panasonic and Canon have already accomplished this feat. Why Sony is so late to the game is the big mystery. Even their vaunted F3 uses a 35mbps, 4:2:0 internal codec.
I'm hoping Sony will quickly incorporate this better codec into their remaining XDCAM line. There's simply no reason not to. Imagine the EX1/3 line with this codec. It would extend the life of these cameras for years.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

The competition is the XF105 so it will be interesting to see the price comparisons when it is available. Unfortunately there isn't a XF100 version though in the product line the NX30 will now compete with the Canon XA10. Though just a little more expensive. Will have to see what the street price is when it arrives.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Put the very best codec in the world behind a sub standard sensor and you'll still get a sub standard image. To be fair to the PMW-100 we don't know how good that image is yet, but based on the specs I don't think it will meet broadcast specs. The minimum specs for BBC and Sky broadcast are 50 Mbps with a 1/2" sensor. The only exception to this rule at the moment is the XF305 and even though the sensors are only 1/3" at least they are full resolution. The XF105 is not approved for broadcast despite it's 50Mb/s codec.

I'd rather have a great sensor/lens with AVCHD than a poor sensor/lens with XDCAM 422.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Why can't we have a great sensor/lens AND a great XDCAM 4:2:2 codec? Must they be mutually exclusive?

The 3-1/3" CMOS HPX250 and HPX370 are also approved by the BBC - or so I've heard.
And we don't know the specs on the PMW-100's sensor, and no, a single 1/3" cam probably won't be approved by the BBC, regardless of the codec.

The point is, Sony CAN put a good codec into a small camcorder, something they haven't done yet. Why they chose to put it in this small camera and not the EX1/3 and F3 line is the big question. I'm guessing - hoping? - that they will soon, and this is the first of several new XDCAM, 50mbps, 4:2:2 cameras.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Allister, your pointing out that the specs state "effective picture elements" has really piqued my curiosity.

I had always assumed that the Exmor chips, even with the diagonal arrangement, still had at least 1920x1080 sensor sites, and used the diagonal thingie with the extra green sensor sites to do even better than a traditional 1920x1080 square array, such as what is used on the XF100 or the Panny AC160.

So, I have been looking closely at the specs of various Sony's. There seem to be two general categories -
1.] cams like the CX550V/MC50 and the NX70 and VG10/VG20 that have multi megapixel counts and take high-res still photos, but do some kind of down-sampling to produce the 1920x1080 video image. Uniformly on the web, and in my tests, these cams have much sharper video images than the NX5, and *seem* to look sharper than the XF100, but look identically sharp to the AC160 (which I have not tested)
2.] cams like the EX1 which use three 1/2" sensors and a splitter to direct color-specific light to the individual sensors. I must confess that the limited PWM-EX1 footage I have seen seems to have that smeary-look that I associate with the XF100 or the NX5. Perhaps I'm not looking at the right vids ...

From the official Sony specs for the EX1: "Effective picture elements 1920 (H) x 1080 (V)"

I then looked on Slashcam, and they list the pixel count for the EX1 as : " image sensor effective pixel count 16:9 2073600 Pixel ", which equals 1920 * 1080. On Slashcam, the NX5 does not have the same spec - that makes me suspicious, but in the "still" section of the review, it states: image sensor effective pixel count 16:9 1037000 Pixel" . I'm not sure where that number comes from! It seems close to 960 * 1080, which is 1036800.

For comparison, on the Panny site for the AC160, they say this: "Pick-up Device: 1/3 Type Progressive, 2.2Mil Pixels, 3MOS Number of Effective Pixels (HxV): 1920 x 1080"
That 2.2 Mil Pixels number appears for a lot of cameras. It is bigger than 1920 * 1080 . Not sure if there is an outer edge of pixels, or if they are just rounding?

I am confused on so many levels here. One of them has to do with the fact that a 3-chipper would not seem to need any special sensors to differentiate different colors - that was already done by the splitter.

Can you penetrate my confused haze and perhaps help me understand all of this? I'm trying to understand "De-Bayerd", what I'm finding on Wikipedia is not helping much ...

I did find this:
Sony Global - Technology - CMOS Sensor "Exmor"

Thanks!

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

The single sensor small Sony's have this sort of sensor Sony Global - Technology - ClearVid CMOS Sensor and HowStuffWorks Videos "Sony ClearVid CMOS Sensor Technology for Handycam Camcorders". Cannot find now any info on the NX5 but these from the Z7 I think are the same or at least they are the same in concept. Digital HD Video Camera Recorder - HVR-Z7U/HVR-S270U. This at least shows the relationship between the sensors and the pixels which are interpolated from the sensor outputs for each of the 3 chips. The sensors are twice the area of the interpolated pixels. 960 sensor sites on each row and alternating in the vertical alignment on each of the 1080 rows. As you can see from the diagram the interpolator creates a pixel between 4 surrounding sensors and uses the center of the sensor as a pixel too. Resulting in 1920x1080 interpolated pixels. The goal being low light performance and noise reduction. For the single chip sensors this is not the case and with the "R" sensor has achieved both maybe. The video shows difference between Bayer and ClearVid array.

Now I have got used to setting up my NX5U I can make it look just as sharp as my CX700 or XR500 for instance. However in stock setup the NX5U does not look as good as the consumer cameras.

I am sure Alister has a better explanation and references.


Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

About 400,000 JPY

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Thanks, Ron. I had seen those Sony pages a while back but it was good to review them.

Aside from disabling Macro, what specific settings do you use on the NX5?

So ... if the EX1 uses the same Clear VId with diagonal pixels, why the difference in the SlashCam pixel count numbers? Wild speculation - perhaps Sony used the same sensor element size and orientation, but just put more of them on the 1/2 inch chips?

One thing I did noticed in my week of testing the NX5 - it had very good low light performance, much better than the CX550V. For the same gain and shutter, it was many stops brighter.

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Yes for the same iris and gain the NX5U is brighter than the CX700. However it shows lots of grain at 12db whereas the CX700 still has less at 21db so the end result is the CX700 has a more useable picture when it gets really dark and with LOW LIGHT setting on its even better.

As to settings I have macro and anti flicker OFF. I use a modified PP3 setting with ITU 709 gamma, master black -3, color level 2, detail +3. I have various settings around these main differences.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

I'm listening...

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Heh. A bit of a tease, Craig? I'm liking your HMQ10.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Very interesting...

Especially since Peter Bauce at HVS told me I NEEDED to go see the JVC booth at NAB after I told him what I was looking to buy three of this year...

See you Monday!

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Actually, I'm quite serious this time.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Well Craig if you are listening I will re enforce what Stephen has said too. I really like the features that my NX5U has but would like better, modern sensor(s), the touch features like spot focus from the consumer cams and all the features that Stephen has listed. The present NX5U comes close and I can't see why Sony can't/hasn't upgraded other than it would eat into the other product lines too much. I have no problem with the present LCD size and would be happy with this size for touch controls etc and a separate 4", 5" or larger monitoring LCD when on a tripod that clipped into a hot shoe, something I am surprised none of the manufacturers have done yet.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Nothing would make me happier than to put a smile on Stephen's and your face.

Sincerely,

- Craig

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Dang, my booth appointment at JVC is on Tuesday afternoon, I wonder if I can change it to Monday morning!

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Craig, I await the next few days with interest.

If you are listening, the thing that JVC have most got right is ERGONOMICS. Keep it up.

You are the only manufacturer to have actually succeeded in designing a small(ish) camera that is a pleasure to hand hold. Technically, cameras such as the EX1, XF305 are incredible in their own ways - but ergonomically they are a joke in a hand held situation. Why can't all cameras of this size/weight be designed as JVC do?

The place for the bulk and weight of a camera is on top of the shoulder - it is better from a manual handling (wrist strain) point of view, and in a scrum it's an obvious advantage to have less sticking out front. (A separate rig may help with the first point, not with the second.)

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

I'll be there on Monday morning, Chris.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Craig, I think you hit one of the improvements Stephen and I were looking for, new sensors. For me still missing 1920x1080 P60, touch focus control that I love on the smaller Sony cams I have and is now a must for any move from the NX5U. The NX5U has 7 programmable buttons not sure if the HM600 has any, need to look a little closer at the spec maybe some of the buttons are reprogrammable. Sony are really missing an opportunity I think as a new NX5 with new sensors and 1920x1080P60 would be great for them.

People now have a similar choice between Canon, Panasonic, JVC and Sony depending on the particular needs. Great

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

@Craig Yanagi

Hi Craig!

Guess what - I just returned a Panny AG-AC160 to B&H. I had it for less than a day before I rejected it.

Although it looked good on paper, with the promise of AVCHD 2.0 1080/60p, variable frame rates, and a nice 22x wide-to-superzoom lens, it is a deeply flawed camera. For openers, the build quality was terrible. The buttons and switches rattle horribly; the sound comes through on the audio. The focus and iris rings feel scratchy and not smooth compared to Sony's. It also has zoom servo motors that whine with (compared to all the Sony's I have owned or tested) what seems like a banshee scream at all zoom speeds other than slow creep. I could hear them on every shot! The final straw came when I was sitting with it in a quiet room and realized I could hear the whoosh of the cooling fans!

So I boxed it up and sent it back. Another $50.00 shipping charge to UPS, and I am one return closer to B&H cutting me off from any purchases. ( This makes the 6th cam I have bought from them and then returned since October 2011.)

While on the B&H site I happened to notice this - the JVC GY-HM600U :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/856596-REG/JVC_GY_HM600U_GY_HM600_ProHD_Camcorder.html
I thought - WOW - is this real? Finally the cam for me?!? Everything looked perfect, it seemed to have everything I want ....

Then I saw the specs and it only does AVCHD 1.0 - 1080/60i !!!

waaaaaah .... yet again I am sobbing with frustration!!

Craig, surely this is a mistake? I mean, everyone is doing AVCHD 2.0 Progressive with 1080/60p these days. I am flabbergasted that this otherwise fantastic-on-paper cam is crippled with 1080/60i. The GY-HM600U is so close to what I need ...

Is there anything you can do to fix this? Say you can and I am prepared to sit on my $5K until October 2012!

thanks,

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

I can't make up my mind. as to go with: PMW-100 or Canon XF105.

Which one will give me better quality for doing weddings/reception?
Canon XF105 has: 58mm Filter Diameter
Sony PMW-100 has: 37 mm Filter Diameter

How does that play a role?

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Hi;

The XF 105 has been out for a while, so there are plenty of vids on YouTube and Vimeo to review. (The XF100 has the same optics). I thought this one showed sharp images, and in general is a beautiful film:


However, other vids I have seen seem soft, compared to, for example, the Sony VG20 or FS100. I've also seen some that show vignetting at the corners at zoom - that would drive me up the wall!

If I were trying to decide between the two, I would wait until the PWM-100 has been out for a while and there are sample vids to consider, also need to look at resolution charts, etc. Slashcam often posts such results.

You will not be able to determine image quality from a spec list.

Steve

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

I was just watching this preview of a preproduction PMW-100 and the reviewer said there were no built in ND filters. Is that true?!!

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

It does seem to share some specs with the NX70... which has no NDs, despite what some people claim. They seem to have wrapped he NX70 innards, lens etc. in an XDCAM package.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Mike it uses a new lens. 40-400 effective focal length and f1.8-2.0 from wide to tight, so it doesn't have as much light drop off as you zoom in compared to the NX70's 26.3-263 effective focal length with f1.8-3.4 wide to tight.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Matt,

I stand corrected... I just saw the 1/2.9" sensor part and assumed it was the same. Oops!

I still think a bigger lens than 37mm, and switchable NDs would make it a much more attractive camera.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Yes, there are no ND filters.

I also just noticed that you can NOT shoot on both cards at sametime.
That is bad for me. As I want to make sure that the events that I am recording have a backup.
What if the card gets corrupted? Then, im screwed.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Well, that excludes the camera for me then.

Re: New Sony XDCAM - the PMW-100
 

Well, it seems that it has ND filters according to B&H :)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/854243-REG/Sony_PMW_100_PMW_100_XDCAM_Camcorder.html