Thoughts on XDCam EX
 

Hi Guys,

As an FX 7 user doing weddings and events, I have been quite disappointed with the HDV cam after many years using VX 2000's.

I have ordered a EX ( yeah I know, no final specs and no firm price, What am I doing?), but I had a credit from winning a small cam at the Sony roadshow here in Melbourne last year, so after trying out the FX 7, didn't want to order the V1.

Here's my thoughts. For wedding work, the FX 7 takes almost 10 seconds to turn on and start recording, with about 4 seconds to stop and start again because of the long GOP to tape, an extra-ordinary long time at a reception.

1. Will the EX address these two issues? Will it pre-write when in standby like when using a hard drive can?

2. The lock to turn my FX 7 ON is a reasonable idea, but you don't need to press the lock to turn it OFF.

This is really the wrong way around, as I've managed to touch the knob and turn the camera off while recording!!!!! I've also had a VX 2000 turn off when the On/Off button gets a little worn, this was not possible with a locking OFF position button (my old Panasonic DV1 had that!).

Can we have a a press lock to turn it off please?

3. The new Sony HVL-LBP light is too heavy for the FX 7. After two months it keeps working the screws holding the shoe to the camera loose, making the light wobble. The shoe probably would be better at the rear of the handle, making the camera better balanced for hand held event work.

The new Sony light needs a more secure (and better balanced) positioning on the camera.

Can these thoughts be communicated to someone (who cares) at Sony?

My thoughts from the field!!! (about 100 functions a year)!

Cheers Vaughan

Thoughts on XDCam EX
 

With regard to the screws coming loose on your shoe mount: I use the Sony HVL -20DW2 light on my PD-150 and was having the same problem with the light being too heavy, working the screws holding the shoe to the camera loose. I replaced the screws with slightly larger screws, and added a drop of super glue before inserting the new ones. This was about 4 years ago and I've never had a problem since. I use the light with the heavier 970 batteries.

Yes please on the lock!
 

I meant to reply this earlier and forgot but, you really hit the nail on the head with that $%&^ switch! On the A1U it is really easy to turn off and I after a year using the Z1 I need to really be careful where I put my thumb and not shut the cam off!

I am a wedding shooter and feel your pain with the 10 sec to start... I hit the Z1 rec button every now and then to keep it in GO mode. I like the firestore feature of "pre-recording" a few seconds before you hit the start button.. It would be unbelievable to be able to program that into the EX! The amount of spontaneous stuff I have lost to that tape spool up is rediculous.

Obviously many here are excited to see this cam. The big chips I hope improve the low light over the Z1. I dial mine to 30 and 9db 1.6 when I don't want to use the light at night but still yearn for a little more :)

I sold 4 VX2000 and really don't miss them. The A1 stinks for low light but that is not what it was built to do anyway.

I read somewhere that the codec and the chips from the other cinealta line give a more organic grain which is really the holy grail it seems. That friggin guy from 50' films made me loose sleep about the look of video :)

My shooters have the home movie effect down!... now we just need the footage to look like film and were in the money :)

Can anyone guess how this thing might be on a Glidecam? There were speculations about it being lighter than the Z1 somewhere due to the no moving parts thing. Par or maybe 5lbs would be fine even with no vest. I don't use a vest with the Z1 and the GC.

Those are my thoughts for now..

Mike

This camera certainly has a lot of potential, sort of like the VX-2000 when it first came out.

It could really be a milestone.

Although, I am waiting for the other show to drop.

When I think how much this camera is going to cost, and how much it is supposed to do, then compare to the full size XDCAMs, I have to think something is not being told yet.

Why would Sony put the exact same image quality and features into a retail ~$7,000 camera with a decent lens that the $14,000 to $20,000 cameras have without a lens?

It just does not sound like Sony!

I am still shocked that the express cards are not proprietary.

I hope I am wrong, because this camera will do a lot for an affordable price.

I too am waiting to see the goods. I think (at least would like to think) that Sony realizes there is a hugh market for a camera like this and many of the loyal VX and PD users (even those of us that use the DSR250) are jumping ship to other brands for the tapless shooting and for obvious reasons want to keep us all in the house as it were.
Something tells me that the camera will not replace the XD330, 350 or the new one they're coming out with aand may very have a few fewer goodies and controls so therefore the lower price point (along with the smaller form factor) I HOPE they stay with it and really produce it and market it at the price point we've all heard, I think with the Express Cards they could kick butt with the gear. Lets hope.

Don

Deja Vu all Over again
 

It seems I have read these same sentiments regarding the price point and performance of new cams vs higher end cams...when the Z1 came out. Perharps we are all getting out panties in a bunch for nothing but I think (hope) this thing is going to kick booty.

The French guy from Sony on the web vid said a press release July... I really can give up tape today. Loading in real time is a PItA!

I am a little concerned with how to back up my files. Maybe a mirrored Raid.

It looks like the cards are going to be relatively affordable so a stack of cards could be an alternative. I read about the optical drive option for 3-4k but this cam is going to be a transitional cam for us and a stand alone unit just for back up plus the cam and cards is going to be tough.

Can we ramble here ? I feel a little wierd about just doing stream of conciousness writing on this cam but it says thoughts so....

Mike

Ramble on, but we covered a lot of this ground re: tapeless, archiving etc. when the Panasonic HVX200 was first announced a couple years ago. You can find a lot of good discussions about these topics in our P2 forum. We'll probably go through that entire process once again when EX starts to ship. No biggie though, as that's what we're here for.

Thanks for the invite
 

Just to see my post count one would garner that I'm new here. I probably should have put together that my concerns would have been talked about somewhere else like the P2 area but I saw a few fellow wedding videographers here so I hung out.

Specifically with weddings as one can get into hot water when things fail. I wondered if there was a redundacy built into these cards. The P2 looked very attractive but just not viable for my line.

I will go over and search for how others archive thier footage on the P2.

Thanks

Mike

I own a Z1 but regularly work with footage from a DSR-570 with a lovely, expensive Fujinon on it. It's the lens that makes the difference.

It really does.

The EX will be the 'Z1 done right', because the form factor is perfect for event work. The F-330 and 350s will sell to those who know their glass and are used to the heft of a shoulder mount camera and the budget for quality glass.

If you're really in the market for an F-350 or F-330, the EX doesn't make sense - low end glass, fiddly SxS format, low end viewfinder, key features like TimeCode Increment missing. If you're really in the market for an EX, the Fs are too big, bulky, visible, expensive to run and unautomated (gotta love shot transition) to be viable.

I think Sony have really weighed up the pros and cons sensibly. Based, of course, on the proposed specifications of course!

I'm guessing that Sony sees HDV/XDCam/Express Cards as the future of video, eventually reaching all the way down into the one chip consumer cams.
Maybe the XDCam EX is the trial run in this direction. Next maybe they'll put out a 1/4" or 1/3" 3 chip version @ $4,000 to replace the Z1/V1, then 1/3" single chip to cover the A1 market, etc., until it's all tapeless.
Home Video consumers would love it. No fiddling with tapes, firewires, etc. Just stick the card into the computer (same like your digital still camera), do a little edit, burn it out to Blu Ray and there it is- Sally's 5th birthday in Hi Def on the 60" screen for all to see.
Could be a good plan!!

Cards for storage
 

Perhaps we will be keeping cards like we keep tapes soon. "Good HDV" tapes are almost $20 for a little plastic box and rollers, guides, tape inside... moving parts etc. How old is this technology?

I could see cards becoming a complete replacement for tape. Somewhere there has to be people trying to stamp these suckers out on the cheap to make this happen.

I shot a wedding this weekend for a filmaker from GA who had a Panny P2 HVX200 and said he hates the thing because of the limitations of the cards.

I could see his point. He had shot some footage and filled the cards with no way to dump easily while away from the studio.

No flames or anything just some thoughts

Mike

I believe that 16 Gig SxS cards are around $190 each right now- and this thing is just starting. Since SxS will have broad usage, way beyond video recording, I imagine capacity will increase and prices will drop very significantly over a couple of years.
I can see a time where a shooter could have 10-15 hrs worth of cards in his pocket at an affordable price, which could be offloaded onto Blu Ray DVDs on a laptop, or an even smaller portable device made for that purpose.
Imagine 32 Gig cards @ $50, blank Blu Ray DVDs @ $1- this could be the future.
Maybe Panasonic had the right idea, but went with the wrong card.

It's a matter of timing. Solid state certainly was/is the right idea, but many felt that Panasonic went for it too soon, before the technology was really up to it, before it was generally viable. I disagree that P2 was "the wrong card" - it was the only way to go about it at the time. But time and technology move on, and SxS now certainly seems a far more viable route into solid state for the majority.

And XDCAM is not intended to be solid state OR disc, but either as most appropiate to the situation.

Within a few months of when the HVX200 started shipping in volume, there were high-end CompactFlash cards with the necessary throughput for a fraction of the price of P2 cards. P2 was the wrong technology from a cost-effectiveness standpoint and is the Achilles heel of the HVX camera, especially for anyone doing long-form recording or working in remote locations. Of course that hasn't stopped it from being popular and useful for some folks, but the XDCAM EX will be more practical for others. I know several people who are looking forward to the EX camera in a way they didn't respond to the HVX200, so there's a market segment waiting to be served which Panasonic missed.

That was my problem with the P2 cards from the beginning. It was based on a card bus that was on the way out when Pany released the cards. The express card interface is much faster. No need for all of the "engineering " to make a raid on a card for the speed output. That and the fact that it is going to be the standard for awhile should help with the pricing.

I may be wrong but I think the thought at Panasonic was to get out quick. Once your invested in the P2 system you might not be as likely to jump to another camera brand. If the other cards are a lot cheaper that may not work as well as they hoped.

The XDCam EX is exactly what I need for a lot of the things I do. It would be the perfect cam for me to have and rent the bigger brothers as needed. I'll just have to wait and see if it delivers the pictures.

K

Yes, but P2 predates the HVX200 by quite a long way with 2/3" SD cameras, and they were originally what it was developed for. I don't believe P2 sold many units at all until the HVX200 came out, and yes, by then P2 was already looking dated.
Again, agreed, and it's not just the memory, but factors such as 1/2" chips and a proper manual lens.

It's not just the EX either, I wait with interest to see what future SxS products may appear.

P2 alternatives?
 

Maybe someone will figure out how to slip an SXS card into the P2 housing ala memory stick duo adapter. I am assuming that it can handle the data. I know this is an oversimplification but.... It seems like there are people heavily invested in P2 and would love a cheap card option.

I'd be surprised if that ever happens, since you'd have to simulate everything including handling the P2 RAID instructions. My guess is that people who are heavily invested in P2 will keep using it for as long as their existing equipment meets their needs, and then reevaluate their options for their next camera purchase. Plus P2 prices are dropping significantly now: it's still not cheap but it's getting less outrageous.

As you may know I am a P2 user and I agree on most parts with you. What is missing imho in the P2 world - simply because it is way to expensive on the media - is a cool deck. Something like the F30 or the F70. But I do not want to buy one of these either because of the xdcam disc it uses. I would like to go directly to solid state memory.

What do you guys think. Would it (hypothetically) be a good idea if Sony came out with a Player that goes along with the XDCAM EX with all the features you have on the F70 but uses solid state memory of any kind, probably SxS.

Or is there maybe already something in the pipeline.

(Booming voice from above: "we can neither confirm nor ...")

Peter

Hypothetically the only hardware required for this would be a flash-card memory reader with an SxS slot, plus the necessary drivers for any computer to read XDCAM footage from the cards. One important consideration will be whether Sony makes the XDCAM HD codec readily accessible, as compared to DVCProHD which is a pain to play on a PC. In theory XDCAM HD could be used as a distribution codec now for watching video in this format at full quality on computers, Blu-ray discs and the Playstation 3, but will that happen?

Perhaps better stated as a common PC Express card slot.

Thanks for your reply Kevin and Chris

I was thinking more of a real deck with HD-SDI I/O and stuff like that. So i can take it anywhere and play HD Content back via component out. Just like a F70 but with SxS card capability. Like the Grass Valley Infinity media recorder that uses REV Pro and Compact Flash media. (if it ever appears on this planet)

I guess I keep on dreaming.

Peter

Well... the HDV tapes are less than 10bucks at a well-known store in NY state. Still not cheap, but a long way from US$20 ! Maybe export costs etc to USVI bumps price up high.

Ok
 

I hear you on that it is not quite $20 but is was close for a while on the Digital Masters. To my non technical mind it seems that tapes are more complicated and delicate than cards as far as all the little springs and rolling/moving parts.

I thought that for the most part cards are stamped out rather quickly. I know, again an over simplification but I think if the card idea gains traction in the consumer world we should see a dramatic reduction in price?

Fortunately we are in the United States VI and there is no duty on "photo/video" equipment from what I gather.

Everything else is very expensive though. Any thought on when Sony will do this press release?

MW

I'd argue that solid state cards already have gained huge traction in the consumer world for still photography, let alone music and a raft of other uses, and we have already seen huge year on year decreases in price. I don't think comparisons with tape re pricing are really valid - the little springs and moving parts within tapes are still fairly "standard" engineering, whilst memory chip manufacture needs engineering on a microscopic scale.

I see the move to solid state happening in three phases:

1. Cheap enough to happen at all - memory is effectively part of the camera.
2. Cheap enough that immediate download is no longer necessary just to free up card space. Cheap enough that enough cards can be owned so that several days shooting can take place without the need to download.
3. Cheap enough to treat like tape now. Shoot to card and put on shelf.

I think we're at (1.) now with P2, and how viable it is depends on individual circumstance. I see the real explosion happening when we get to (2.) and I also see the day coming about a lot quicker with the advent of SxS than if we had to wait for P2 pricing to naturally drop to the right level. I also think it will be significant if SxS leads not just to cheaper high capacity cards, but very cheap lower capacity ones. (It doesn't have the same fixed, high cost per card of P2,regardless of size.) For many users, 4x16GB cards may be far more useful than a single 64GB card, for the same amount of money overall.

Agreed
 

As it stands right now I think I would go with cheap 18 gig cards in the place of more expensive larger capacity cards. Mentally it would be easier to take in the "all my eggs in one basket" sense :)

Lose the big card and it hurts. For me the published time of 2 hours on two 16gig cards is perfect! Some times I need to shoot continuolsy for up to 90 min sometimes more.

That feature alone is huge for me. The DOF on the bigger chips is huge too. Even better PQ than the Z1? Sweet! Better low light? .... I really can't wait to start shooting with this thing!

Does anyone want to speculate on the LUX?

I say VX2000/PD match.

Let's hope eh?

If it is around 2 Lux they will have a absolute winner on their hands!

Vaughan

I sure wish Sony would put it out with an onboard SATA controller, an e-SATA port and a power connector for a small external hard drive.

I'd so much rather dump the data onto a $50 external 2.5" 120gb SATA hard drive than spring for another $3-5K for the XDCAM disk drive (+$40 per disk) and/or cart a laptop around with me on a shoot.

It would be even better if you had the option of capturing directly to an external HD instead of, or in addition to, the SxS card.

But, then, I suppose, Sony couldn't make sure that you buy only THEIR products.... ***sigh****

Well Brian, I'd say you've got some bad information that you're basing this stuff on. 3 to 5K? $40/disc?

The drive is supposed to retail for around $3K. Single layer discs are about $25 a piece. Haven't checked the price for dual layer discs yet.

Keep in mind that Sony went with an open format for the memory so you can buy ANYBODY'S card if it conforms to the SxS spec. So no, you don't have to buy only Sony support equipment.

-gb-

Actually it's under $30 per disk... which is much less expensive than HDCAM for the same recording length.

See http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...byte_Hard.html

And the TDK, Fuji, and Maxell discs are much cheaper and made to exactly the same standards as the Sony ones. In fact the TDK ones are probably even more robust than the Sony ones due to the Durabis coating.

No, based on minimal digital gain boost, it wil lbe between 1.8 to 2.8 stops less sensitiev than the PD/VX based on pixel count vs imager size

dont forget, larger sensors inherantly retain a cleaner image with gain used, so 12+ to 18 + should still be rather clean and definately useable compared toa 1.3rd imager

theres also the fact that sony have improved their noise reduction significantly

so a match WOULD definately be possible, but it would be based on different settings and configurations

Thanks for the info. That does ease the pain somewhat.

Even so, coming from a SD DV world, I'm still coming to grips with the idea of archival media that's ten times as expensive as DV tape.

I still think an e-SATA port would be a nice addition to this cam. Why hasn't anyone done this yet? It seems like such an obvious solution to storage problems.

How so? Hard drives are down to under 25 cents/GB and XDCAM HD footage is roughly 16 GB/hour at full quality, so that's $4 per hour of source material compared to at least that much for a good DV tape. If you make redundant copies on separate hard drives for security that's $8/hour, which still isn't bad.

So do you reckon that one can use a +12db in HD and get a decent acceptable picture? In SD a +12db is the limit for event videos for an acceptable picture.

Another point is that one should not talk about lux levels but rather sensitivity when one is considering minimum illumination. The F-330 is rated as f/9 at 2000lux whilst the DSR-300 series were rated as f/11 at 2000 lux. At the same time the F-330 is rated as minimum lux of 0.13 whilst the DSR-300 was rated as 0.5lux.

Unless Sony put in some real sensitivity in the EX, it would not be suitable for event videos where filming in very low light levels ids the norm.

Brian

It is the same for all high def cameras (bar the HPX-500 which is very good in low light due to the low res CCD's).

There are people doing event videography with Z1's quite happily, and that camera is rated at f7. In fact f9 would be a big step forward for a camera with the EX style form factor.

Things will probably get better with time. With HD cameras we are at the same stage we were with SD cameras a number of years ago. But with the technology available to the public this is as good as it gets.

Z1
 

I shoot weddings with my Z1 and love it. I rarely use a light. I tell my clients that I can shoot the night "as it was" and there will be a slight "grain" in the picture or I can use a light.

I show them a sample of no light 1.6 shutter at 15 and 30 and 18db gain.

99% say looks great do that!!!

If the reception was dark it was dark and not lit like a set. That is the way it was. Slow shutter makes dancers look better than they are anyway and that always helps.

That having been said I personally would like a slightly cleander image but the consensus is that for the most part what the Z1 can do is fine for the clients I deal with. MId to High end couples.

Mike

Well it kind of is two different markets you are talking about here. For HDV you can still use tapes just as cheap as DV. XDCAMHD with the EX is more on the pro side and it would be compared more to DVCAM tapes which are also $28.00 +. I'm so used to shooting with large DVCAM tapes that the cost of shooting XDCAM HD or XDCAM HD EX and then backing up doesn't really phase me. I can see how the extra cost may concern some people used to just DV but really it is a whole new level of quality and market reach we are talking about.

In fact with the EX cost of backup is the least of my concerns. My only concern is the time and effort it will take to transfer the media and create the backup. Sure transferring to hard drive should be pretty quick and it will fit lots of video but I don't exactly want to have a shelf of 100 hard drives sitting around. I'm also a little concerned about the shelf life of a hard drive. Backing up to optical media makes a lot more sense for long term storage but that will be a slow and tedious process.

The XDCAM EX will have the largest sensor of any HD camera under $10K, which should make it useful for event work unless Sony botches the design. Many event videographers are getting by for now using HD cameras with 1/3" sensors, and of those who have been holding out the EX is generating a lot of interest based on the specs.

By the way, I regularly run my FX1s with gain up to 18db and don't find the results to be objectionable, although there is a fine grain which is noticeable in the resulting images. Few event video customers would pay more for using better cameras, and the EX is at the outer edge of the normal price range for event cameras.

I would say hard drives are the way to go these days for backing up large amounts of video data, since they're cheaper and faster than blue-laser media for this purpose and can be accessed directly to edit the stored files. The questionable reliability of hard drives is an issue, but one answer to this would be to copy your source footage to a mirrored two-drive array to get an instant backup. The chances of both drives failing while sitting on a shelf are slim, and if you really have something critical then make another backup to a tape drive or optical media. Two 500GB hard drives cost about $200 now and would hold duplicate copies of roughly 30 hours of XDCAM HD footage, at a cost of ~$7 per hour of source video. Seems tolerable to me, for those willing to make the effort to do that.