I guess it depends on what you do. The rental of a camera or two as a % of a budget is pretty minor. I think it might move a lot of people from 1/2 or 2/3rd up and in fact probably some higher end lower. I think even indy production companies may invest. As a % of running a business it's not that great either. In that world no one got fired for buying Sony.

Of course it depends whether it's any good. But on paper it should be demonstrably better then AF100 and dSLRs. If it's not then i'm sure sony will feel the pain accordingly.

Canon have not announced anything yet so it's a little difficult to know what their plans are. And Red, well, they're Red. There's nothing in that price range to speak of yet.

cheers
paul

Paul, I work at both ends of the industry - if I'm going to rent I'll rent Epic or Alexa or Phantom. If I'm going to buy, I'll buy Scarlet or 5D MIII or whatever new wave, low-cost technology takes my fancy in the coming months and that's my point. This camera is neither fish nor foul. If it offered RAW it would be another matter, but it doesn't, so it's not:)

All pretty interesting. Can't wait to try one. I agree that this isn't a replacement for the PDW- 800 or the EX1 or 3 . This is a whole 'nother thing. Another tool available to us. i've seen the low light capabilities of the F-35 and 9000PL in s-log at zero gain and the results were truly stunning. If the quality of this camera is even close... I'm in.

I understand where you're coming from and i think it's a little early to pigeon hole this camera because we've not seen anything from it. In theory:

- It has a seriously sensitive sensor (12micron pixels). Could be a lot more sensitive than Red.
- Sony sensors have always been pretty good at tungsten and low light
- SLog compatibility in the future for those than need that (no need for RAW)
- From above i presume that you can record to card for edit and capture SLog for finishing
- A dedicated zoom next year (and wasn't that mooted to be autofocus too?)

And this is an EX style handycam package. As i see crew sizes diminishing and mid range productions becoming more streamlined then i think this package offers something there. If you work at high and low then you're not going to notice the middle so much. That's where i think this would work best.

Scarlet and 5D MkIII don't exist to all intents and purposes - *maybe* 2011 for those. Canon is increasing megapixels not range. I read tha Canon are aiming for scaling full photo frames down to HD which is a great target. And I think Red just may concentrate on the high end and Epic. They will struggle to compete in price against dDLRs and AF100 and the strength of consumer electronics firms.

This industry is moving so fast that from a personal perspective unless i can cover the cost of a camera in one or two shows i would rent. I have a bad enough obsession with buying stills cameras and lenses!

So i think this may sit firmly in the middle. But we should all reserve judgement until we see this thing actually working!

cheers
paul

I'd prefer less of the handicam layout, the EX1 & EX3 are at the limits of that layout. I'm not too sure about how good these large sensor cameras are at reducing crew sizes, focus does become more critical and the 2/3" cameras have been doing the small crew sizes for many years, so there's nothing new in that.

The big difference has been the reduction in cost in getting a broadcast type quality camera kit in recent years. The recording codec used may depend on how well the post people are set up, I won't count doing your own editing, but going to 3rd party editors, which many producers do.

Photos of the F3 on a film shoot. Camera shown rigged up with a bunch of different lens, rails and on a steadicam. The body looks like it is pretty close to being in it's final production form. The following link is on Facebook so you may have to login to see the photo album:

On the set of "The Red Balloon": shot with the new Sony F3 | Facebook

Yes, but the thing is that this camera is for those situations where it isn't practical for an F35 or SRW9000. A balanced shoulder mount config, or even an EX3 style config would be too big for what it is intended for.

For once I like this type of form factor because it means that there is an option there for a very highly portable camera that will have virtually no compromises in picture quality. Packable down to an even smaller size than an EX1. Perfect.

I feel its a matter of having the viewfinder at the front rather than the back with a handle in front, that wouldn't affect the size. A PL prime lens could weigh as much as the camera, so everything is going to be front heavy. An alternative could be the RED Epic's double handed DSLR type arrangement, with a LCD screen for framing,.

Tomorrow!! So exciting!

view finder ...
 

I think it would be interesting to mold a removable hard plastic flange to the LCD and use my EX3 viewfinder. That would be interesting. The other way is to get a DSLR/Hoodman viewfinder for the LCD. I don't care for the back viewfinder either.

Makes me wonder who does? Why exactly do semi-pro/pro cameras have rear mounted view finders anyway?

Make it EX3ish, but removable.

A bunch of posts (not about the F3 but put here anyway) have been moved to a new thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...am-lineup.html

Remember, different topic = different thread. Thanks all,

But you are wrong sir, it does offer "RAW" in its own. It will shoot 4:4:4 Slog which is its RAW.

I say it again, this is clearly not designed by someone who actually uses cameras. This thing needs to be removed. Its in the way, unusable, and eye sore, it really is the one thing that could have done to make this camera better, and they didnt. All they had to do was not waste money on a crappy back end vf and add a port for a real vf or even just another HDMI port for connecting the new external VF's that work off HDMI.

I can see so many people breaking this off by getting it caught on something.

Giuseppe,

Yes, I saw that S-Log was mentioned. My understanding of S-log is it's a flat gamma curve, good for retaining as much dynamic range as possible, but it's not RAW - or am I misunderstanding something?

Liam.

view finder ...
 

I am not a fan of such types of view finders either. I wonder why they didn't add the EX3 view finder on this camera?

Clearance. The EX3 finder is quite a bit farther forward of the mount for it to work as an eyepiece for shoulder work.

You can't have eyepieces like that with a lot of PL lenses and accessories...the finder gets in the way.

I'm wondering how well something like the Redrock or Zacuto eyepieces will work with this, considering there's an HDMI output as a "spare". Then you can put one wherever you want.

Well it is not RAW otherwise it would be called a RAW format, but it does some things that is like a RAW format. It a negative. The slog is a curve that gives you your sensor a negative, its not going to react the same way a RAW file would with exposure, but it does have the same principal. You can affect the exposure and latitude better with S-log and its as close as you can get to what a RAW workflow would be for Sony cameras like this.

the LUTs will greatly help post and making sure that color timing will be correct and accurate, as well as retaining the most amount of information possible.

At that level of control we are talking about motion pictures and tv, making sure the end result is the best possible and the more accurate when matching to projectors.

Its not RAW but it does give you a great amount of control over the image vs. without using S-log.

Someone more articulate in these manors might be able to explain a bit clearer on the hows and whys, I just know how to use it haha

"From April 2011, a Dual Link HD-SDI option will en- able 10bit RGB 23.98/25/29.97PsF or 10 bit 4:2:2 108050P/59.94P uncompressed external recording – ideal for integration with highest quality production workflows such as HDCAM SR. The PMW-F3K also supports selectable Gamma, four levels of Hyper- Gamma and S-Log for a wide range of shooting condi- tions from standard to wide latitude. The PMW-F3K can simultaneously record LUT (Look Up Table) in- formation onto the internal media for additional work- flow flexibility."
"HDCAM SR (two modes)
Color Sampling = 4:2:2, Bandwidth = 440 Mb/s, Compression 2.7:1, Precision = 10 bit, 1920x1080
Color Sampling = 4:4:4, Bandwidth = 880 Mb/s, Compression 4.2:1, Precision = 10 bit, 1920x1080

Read more: Specs on HDcam? - Cinematography.com

Whether it will do 4.4.4 is still questionable.

It's not questionable at all, its in their specs already. It WILL do 4:4:4 to the SR recorders. You just have to pay for the duallink to be upgraded to do it.

white paper ...
 

maybe I'm blind ... but I didn't see it in the White Paper on the camera. One would assume that it could do 4.4.4 but assuming is no insurance against being wrong. Like I said ... might have missed that point in reading.

Then why did YOU call it RAW, when clearly it's not?

Also, I must be as blind as Dean, since I can only see 10bit 4:2:2 mentioned - not 4:4:4.

Anyway, that aside, does anyone know what the "upgrade" to dual link HD-SDI will encompass? Cost? Hassle?

upgrade ...
 

Middle next year or summer probably. Cost ... humm ... I don't think it will be as cheap as some would like. I wouldn't even be able to take a shot in the dark on that. My guess is that you will have to take it to Sony for the upgrade and they will add an element inside the camera ... just my guess. Oh, heck ... stab in the dark $500 to $700 or there abouts ... could even be $1,000.

Anybody else want to take a guess?

Dual link usually carries 4.2.2 in one link and 0.2.2. in the other so I don't understand the value if it doesn't work that way?

I said "its RAW" meaning its own version of RAW, sure its not RAW files that are 1's and 0's but its something of a negative. If you're that worried about having to have a RAW signal then you're not in the same range of wanting this camera anyway.

As for the 4:4:4 please use google and read the tons of reviews from credible sources all saying the same exact thing it supports 10bit 4:4:4 raw, including I believe sony members talking about this on video. Just because its not in the white papers you have doesn't mean it wasnt announced after the white papers came out.

I'll do some digging to get you the answer directly from a sony source if I have to.

This is a quote from Film & Digital Times post HOSTED on the Sony Pro site

"At the rear of the F3, there are 2 Sony SxS ExpressCard slots.
The F3 records natively onto SxS Cards at 35 Mbps in 4:2:0 8-bit
XDCAM EX format. The SxS Cards are formatted in standard
FAT file format; a 32 GB Card will record 100 minutes in highest
quality. Many users will be happy with this. But, like Oliver Twist,
many will want more. And they can have more–with the ability
to use the onboard SxS Cards as immediately editable proxies,
while simultaneously recording to a higher standard. That might
include 4:4:4 10-bit S-Log HD-SDI dual link to an SRW-1 /SRPC-
1 SRW tape recorder at visually lossless 440 and 880 Mbps or
(next year) 1 TB Solid State Memory Cards at 220 and 440 Mbps.
There are HD-SDI dual-link outputs at the rear of the F3 for
external recording (4:2:2 1080 50/59.94P normal; and RGB 1080
23.98/25/29.97PsF as an option)."

The RGB upgrade is a full 4:4:4 stream, you just have to wait for it to be available for the upgrade. There would be no point for the dual link unless it supported 4:4:4 the HD-SDI output already does 10bit 4:2:2 out standard. the Dual link is for shooting in S-Log RGB at 4:4:4 theres no other reason to have it.


Also answer to the whole RAW ordeal, pretty much what I said before, this is its "RAW":

"You’ll be able to select S-Log and
Hyper Gamma to seriously increase the dynamic range. S-Log is
Sony’s take on RAW “Digital Negatives.” The image, uncorrected,
looks pale and washed out (like a negative), but when a Look-Up
Table (LUT) is applied, shows the full dynamic range of the image,
giving you greater flexibility for color and contrast correction in
post"

I found a confirmation from Sony stating once upgraded it will support 10bit 4:4:4 out .

HD Warrior Blog Archiv SONY F3 Press Launch in London

go to the video and skip to 11mins and listen to the questions and answers.

He said it will support 4:4:4 as long as you had the upgrade, otherwise its 10bit 4:2:2 standard.

I found it odd that it wasn't in the tech specs. 4:4:4 is a big deal, you'd think they'd flag that up! Maybe they just assumed we'd know it would be 4:4:4 due to the dual link - since that's what it's for...

The S-Log gamma curve, as it's name suggests is a logarithmic "S" shaped gamma curve. The Hypergammas and Cinegammas used in the EX and XDCAM camcorders are also logarithmic, but only in the highlights. S-log compresses both highlights and shadow areas leaving the mid range flat and linear. It is still important that you get your exposure correct as you want to use the linear part of the curve as much as possible. The linear area will grade better as more bits of data are used per luma/chroma change than in the compressed Hi and Low areas. The big advantage S-Log brings is the ability to record 12 stops using standard video recorders. This gives you more headroom in the edit for overall exposure tweaks, inn effect you can extract the 8 to 9 stops normally used for natural video display from the 12 stop range. If you do start using the compressed ends of the curve you will see issues as in the extreme low lights and highlights the luma/chroma is very compressed. Trying to stretch these back out to a linear (natural) looking image will introduce stair stepping if taken too far.

The big deal with S-Log is the use of 10 bits and RGB to record it. Buy using 10 bits you gain more discreet steps in the compressed areas so you can push 10 bit S-Log or even 10 bit Hypergammas much harder before introducing artefacts, provided the cameras noise level is low enough. The F3's noise floor is plenty low enough to really make use of 10 bit recording. By keeping the sensors R G and B outputs discreet and recording 4:4:4 you eliminate cross colour and other interactions, again further improving the image and it's adjustability.

While S-Log is not the same as raw, recorded at 4:4:4 RGB 10 bit it will be extremely flexible, but it's not going to cover up badly shot footage. S-Log onto SxS at 35Mb/s is not something I would do for mastering as you are forced to grade the footage (or apply a LUT) to make the image look half decent. 8 Bit 35Mb/s is not going to be good enough for S-Log, you absolutely want 10 bit. However by the time the F3 becomes available there should be plenty of 10 bit recorder choice, may be even some affordable uncompressed recorders or maybe even a Ninja recording ProRes for $1000 US.

The cameras are officially listed at B&H. Price: $16,000 base, $23,000 w/ primes. Available in February.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/743863-REG/Sony_PMW_F3L_PMW_F3L_Super_35mm_Full_HD.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/743866-REG/Sony_PMW_F3K_PMW_F3K_Super_35mm_Full_HD.html

Somebody please give me 16,000 dollars.

Alister ...
 

thanks for the info on S-Log. It seems that dual HD/SDI out of the F3 will allow for 4.4.4 ... if I'm wrong about that please inform.

You are correct, from all the sony reps talking there are multiple videos with sony confirming 4:4:4 out of the dual HD-SDI. It just not in the specs pdf's yet.

ah ...
 

This is good news and certainly makes this camera very enticing!!!

Alister - what do you think of S log or Hypergammas at the 4:2:2 10 bit setting. I'm no tech but guessing that 10 bit is the real gift here more important than the 4:2:2 over 4:2:0.

By the way I finally saw your review on the web which answered lots of questions I've been asking.

As I understand it you won't have the option of S-Log or Hypergammas unless you get the 4:4:4 option. Certainly on the cameras doing the rounds at the moment you only have Cinegammas.

S-Log over 10 bit 4:2:2 could still be useful but the extreme compression at the ends of the gamma curve will give banding issues in colours when it's sub sampled to 4:2:2 and then pushed hard in the grade. It's correct that with the low noise of this camera that 10 bit is key but if you have shelled out on the 4:4:4 option then I would want to use a 4:4:4 recorder as well. I'm sure that by next April there will be some interesting 4:4:4 recorders available at sensible prices.

When I click on the links I see prices of $13,300 and $18,950. Talk about drooling over something that is just outside of my reach. I need to find some grant money for my documentary so I can justify getting one of these. Anybody have any test footage of one of these with the Sony Primes paired with a nanoFlash yet? I'd love to see how that looks.

-Garrett

Looks like 24 minutes from the Australian conference. Maybe something interesting in this...

I was at the Melbourne showing, and one question I made sure to put to Nick was the sensor type. He confirmed it's a standard Bayer pattern, not the new Q67 pattern.

Also asked about the 4:4:4 S-Log upgrade. He couldn't give a price or if it was hardware or firmware. Same with the SR solid state deck and media, no firm price other than affordable and less than SxS per gig.

He did give one indication of an overall price target Sony were thinking of for a fully kitted F3 with S-Log and the SR deck, and that was around $40K AU. Not firm, but a rough estimate.

It tried the thing with 18db gain, and on the SmallHD monitor I could see zero noise. Very impressive, that's 6400ASA.

We saw Jason Wingrove's short projected on a cinema screen. It held up pretty well considering it was mostly shot in 720, graded in Baselight, compressed to a mov and played back from a Macbook.

Did you get any more details about the sensor specs, David? The general hope and expectation seems to be 4 megapixel, but did you get that confirmed?

I didn't ask as I'd already read else where it's a 3.5K chip. Can't remember where or who said it, but it was a Sony source. It matches the Alexa basically, so Sony's math came to the same conclusion I guess.

Thanks, David. Yes, somewhere around the 4 megapixel mark is optimal for normal 1080 HD from a single chip - it gives roughly the same number of green sensors as max recorded luminance pixels. A good balance between resolution and S/N and sensitivity, and keeping the processing relatively easy.