Sony UK to Announce PMW-F3 at 10am UTC on Facebook
 

This announcement appears to have come out of nowhere...

On Monday, November 7th, Sony UK is going to have a Q & A session on their 35mm sensored camera on Facebook at 10am UK time or 2 am pacific time (only a few short hours from now). They are now calling their creation the PMW-F3.

The announcement is here (scroll to bottom of page)...

Sony : Sony's 35mm World : United Kingdom

The Facebook home page is below. You will have to add them as a "like" them and then go to the Q & A section in the "Discussion" tab.

http://www.facebook.com/SonyProfessionalEurope

You splendid Europeans and North American night owls, please take notes and someone make sure that the Sony engineers know that developing another camera with a bottom that looks like a Henry Moore sculpture is so NOT on.

Unfortunately, the links to the F3 info don't work. I wonder if Sony decided to pull them for now.

Could be Glen but I think it is more likely to go live either tomorrow or more likely on the 17th of November when things get official with their press conference. Tomorrow I suspect is to prepare them for the onslaught of questions they will get from the tech media and film industry people that will be there on the 17th. A dry run as it were in preparation.

Links worked fine for me, but since such a toy is out of my budget and tomorrow is an early day, probably will miss it...

Sorry, to clarify: the links supplied by Andrew work fine. It's the links within the links to the PMW-F3 products pages on the Sony/UK site that don't work. For now, anyway.

I see the product page, I'm reading the specs now. Or are you guys talking about something else?

Yes, just read all the product info and full tech specs on the pages. I see Sony are sticking to 35Mbps VBR codec, at least for now. Not sure if this is "new" info, or was there before.....Interesting....but this camera is going to be well above my planned budget for my next cam!

I imagine people will be using a Nanoflash on quite a few productions.

I can't see any pricing anywhere? You'd think they'd pitch it around the EX3 range, as it looks like slotting in right about there with it's feature set, but for the larger sensor brigade. Maybe a bit more for the three T2 lens kit version. And more again for the 3G upgrade.

Excited about the zoom rocker.
 

Quote from product info PDF, "Sony F3 Original Mount for Zoom Lens Sony plans to introduce a range of zoom lenses directly compatible with the F3 mount. More details will be revealed shortly. Zoom lens compatibility expands the operational flexibility of the F3 so it can be used for almost any application."

One of the main reasons I haven't jumped on the large sensor/DSLR bandwagon is the mainly prime lens set-up. I prefer to shoot shorts and features with an ENG set-up. With the zoom rocker, I'll be very interested in what type of zoom lenses that are in developement, or already in existance. A 35mm EX1R/3 would be perfect for my shooting style.

I'm hoping there'll be a lot more details to come about the F3 mount. While having a PL mount is nice, I'd really only be interested in the camera if I could marry it up with my existing set of Nikon stills lenses.

Due to the longer FFD of PL, there are no "optics-free" adapters that will get from there to either Nikon or Canon mounts without losing focus at infinity (and essentially forcing the lenses to behave like macros).

Assuming that the F3 mount has a short enough FFD (well under 44mm), I'm hoping either Sony or third parties are planning to bring additional F3 mount adapters to market at launch or very soon after. In fact it would be great to hear from anyone at Mtf - if they have any plans on this?

Pricing and Availability
 

Latest I've found on this....

"There are two models, one PMW-F3K with three lenses (35, 50, 85mm F2.0) - Euros 20,700, PMW-F3L body only model - Euros 14500. Availability is Jan 2011. With regards to details on the zoom lens, Sony will be producing specific zoom lenses for this camcorder, which we intend to show prototypes of at NAB 2011."

I think a lot of us are excited until we see the price. 14,000 for body only is not a "second camera" for your EX-1/3. Also looks like the zoom lenses will only be prototypes at NAB which means when will they be available...

I would say this makes me think that Sony has another model which will compete with the upcoming Panasonic AF-100. They know that a lot of people are not interested in spending $15-$20,000 on this camera. But the specs are not that far off from the AF-100. It is kind of tough to see what they would cut to get the camera down in price.

2011 is going to be quite the year for camera releases.

The model with a 35, 50 & an 85mm lens set will cost in the neighbourhood of 20,700 euros. They are all F/2.0 lenses. Sold as a brick at $14,500 euros. Like the previous EX's my hunch is the street price will be lower.

The sensor is the same size as the F35 sensor which is a 35mm film academy sized sensor but spits out XDCAM EX footage to the SxS card slots, 10bit 422 out the operational HD-SDI port with a paid dual link HD-SDI option available around NAB time along with a few option pay for options. With the 3GHD-SDI option you will have access to 4:4:4 10 bit output but you will have to have a way to capture it.

It weighs 2.4 kilos without lens or battery, standard ISO equivalent is 800 as opposed to an EX1/3 at 320, the tripod mount is a standard screw thread mount... didn't say whether or not the bottom was curved like the EX3, 12 stops of latitude, apparently the rolling shutter is not as bad due to a sped up refresh rate, zoom lens ANNOUNCED at NAB (didn't they just announce it today?), it has a PL mount so cine lenses are the order of the day like Zeiss Primes.

One significant benefit of this camera is the sped up workflow in relation to RED and the decreased risk of things going sideways in post. Producers and clients who deal with RED are going to be interested in this. But...

One significant downer on this, unless you have a nanoFlash or the would to be maybe possibly Ki Pro Mini is it doesn't do appreciable overcrank out of the box even at 720. Sony are you looking at your competition? This where Sony could create instant deal breakers in a lot of people who are ready to drop money on this unit that has a lot going for it. To get 60 frames of overcrank at 720p you have to buy the dual-link HD-SDI option. I'm guessing this is going to be a multi grand option given it will give you access to 4:4:4 output. It won't do appreciable overcrank in 1080 whereas Panasonic's AF100 will do 1080p60 albeit at 24bit on their souped up AVC codec but at least it is there and ostensibly usable in a lot of applications.

It is kind of odd that they have priced this within reach of people in the lower end of the pro market, that being where the huge sales unit numbers would come from but they have hobbled it by effectively excluding overcrank. I understand the size the processor has something to do with it but the reality is a large part of the decision is based on a small hardware piece and acess to software within the camera to give the user overcrank through the dual-link HD-SDI ports.

Sony is trying to play both sides of the fence by going after the low end of the pro market with the price point of the body but charging film industry rates for add ons like some forms of overcrank that are now considered standard fare. Those days are over at the low end of the market. Panasonic has figured this out and they are going to mop up with the AF100, if Sony doesn't get with the program.

The lenses they are going to offer are going to be in the 2 to 2.5 thousand dollar range each which is less than Zeiss Primes but you might want to look at the compact primes that Zeiss offers as they are within shooting range of the Sony lenses. User reports on these lenses I suppose will determine whether or not the Sony lenses are close enough in quality to the Zeiss lenses or not.

All things are pointing towards Sony announcing a camera to compete with the AF-100 but you have to remember that Sony has been showing off prototypes of what we now call the PMW-F3 for the last eight months. Absolutely NOTHING has been shown or talked about an AF100 competitor.

We will know on the 17th of November. Hopefully.

Sorry for the multiple posts. Trying to triangulate between what was said in the Sony's online chat session in Facebook and the marketing material on their website. There is a bit of conflicting information.

The following paragraph from Sony's UK website leads one to a lot of hope and enthusiasm about this camera:

So according to this marketing material the camera does shoot 1080p60 (or thereabouts of course). It is possible, it got yanked and the Marketing Manager was off message on Facebook. Hope not.

S-Log recording is huge. It is like shooting RAW. S-Log is available on Sony's very high end F35 and it is being brought down to this camera. It shoots a very flat image but will contain the greatest amount of latitude for yanking the image in post.

Here is a bit on it from the F35 product page on the Sony UK site:

What will be interesting to see, if this camera has the colour tool box of the F35 as it is being positioned by Sony as a B-camera to their high end product line.

Other considerations, the LCD screen is effectively the same as the EX1R so the Hoodman Pro Diopter attachment should work on this camera for those times when attaching a Marshall isn't in the cards. The F3 has genlock and timecode, like the EX3. It uses 24 watts when recording but with the LCD off. You will want to be running something like an Anton Bauer Dionic 90 off this puppy. In pounds this camera weighs 5.3. A Zeiss compact prime is about 2 pounds, a Dionic is 1.9 lbs, a nanoflash is .8 lbs, bringing it to around 10 pounds. Rails, FF and mattebox would bring it to 12 to 14 pounds. Steadicam Ops using motors would be in the 20 pound range.

Apparently the US street price at this point in time is $16,000. Remember how the price of the EX3 came down on launch but this price does sound about right - if it had overcrank to the SxS cards!

A DVinfo member, Paul Joy, has some very useful and insightful info and images on the F3 through his website:

http://www.pauljoy.com/sony-f3/

This link shows the camera from all angles and has descriptions.

Sony F3 ? closeups & thoughts | Paul Joy

Looks like a cross between a VX2000 and a RED ONE. Hopefully direct SDI will yield quality closer to the SI-2K or the SI-2K Mini.

Another press release/brief news article that is worth checking out:

Sony's PMW-F3 Targets Indie Filmmakers | Studio Daily

Sounds good, but cost way to much for my budget. too bad. I'd love to play with one.

If Sony brings a consumer model of this camera, - without the TC in, TC out and genlock, and a price of less than half what it costs now, then they have a winner. Very intelligent to use the well-proven, easy-to-edit MPEG2-Long GOP, as well.

Given all the pro features, I suspect Sony are leaving the consumer market to the DSLRs. How it fairs against the Panasonic AF100 will be another matter, which could have the "good enough" factor for those people wanting a larger sensor, but with less of the DSLR artefacts.

It seems to be aiming at those professionals who want a large sensor camera without having to use the RAW that'll be used on the 35mm sensor Scarlet (which seems drifting further into the future).

Don't forget the NEX-VG10, which is consumer video. It has HDMI out (perhaps uncompressed), APS-C sensor etc,.

Of course it suffers aliasing and poor build quality.

But isn't there a rumour of a prosumer version of the NEX series in the new year? Perhaps that is for the AF100?

I suspect the F3 would have a better image than the AF100, it's a dedicated sensor, not a retrofitted dSLR sensor. As always the proof is in the pudding, so lets wait and see some footage.

At that price it would make for a reasonably priced rental camera.

cheers
paul

I agree that all indications so far suggest Sony are directly targeting that slice of the market with this camera (particularly with the lens options at launch). Question is, priced as is currently announced, will a rental-oriented camera "sell like hot cakes" and do Sony need/want it to (perhaps a silly question) ?

The initial pricing does seem to leave a gaping hole in the lineup between the VG10 and the F3. Trouble is, from first look at the specs there are very few places where Sony have left room to carve out a camera that fits the "middle-ground" while still allowing them to justify such a (relatively) high price for the F3.


- Guess work of what a "F-VG-3-10" might comprise:

Codec: No room to move below the 35Mbps XDCAM-EX or improve much on the 24Mbps AVCHD, I would expect the former to still be offered at the prosumer level.

Sensor: Either a (1080p)S35 or a (14.2MP)APS-C size - perhaps a native 1080p APS-C sensor seems the logical compromise to offer, and perhaps with a step down in sensitivity against the F3.

Pro-connections: Perhaps lose the highest HD-SDI options, but would otherwise need to be EX3 comparable on this front.

Pro-functions: I think most EX3-like functions should still remain. Perhaps lose the cache record (if only for "cripple factor").

The only other obvious variables are build quality (materials) and ergonomic design compromises.

This will keep me scratchng my head until the 17th, and perhaps beyond!

It seems based around the sensor. either the mass produced NEX sensor or a custom sensor like the F3.

The details on the F3 however aren't available, it is bayer? is it something else? Are they taking a NEX sensor and reading out *every* line and downsampling? (very cool if that's the case but unlikely). If they're going to the extreme of creating a new 1080p APS-C sensor then they must be expecting some reasonable numbers or high margin and it looks like high margin.

I think the compromise for a lower end will be in the sensor. If they stick a video OLPF in front of the NEX sensor that might do it. AVCHD with video based NEX sensor and uncompressed HDMI and XLRs would be my guess. And E mount. The cost of that NEX sensor must be almost nothing. If they do that then that's a bit better than the AF100.

perhaps, who knows

cheers
paul

Replying to myself, first sign of madness?

It seems that F3 sensor is a dedicated new 1080p video sensor which much larger pixel sizes (12 micron). So that's the big difference and i look forward to seeing it in action. I suspect the quality will be very high, compared to AF100 and NEX and dSLRs in general.

cheers
paul

I think this is the critical thing. Those who damn this camera for it's price point are doing so before seeing what that new sensor can deliver. My guess is that it'll totally blow people away because of the technical advance that this new sensor may bring - the few specs that are known sound exciting (maybe exceptional low light performance? ....much better than even a 5D MkII maybe?)

But let's see it in action first before judging if it's worth it's price tag!!!

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I think this is the critical thing. Those who damn this camera for it's price point are doing so before seeing what that new sensor can deliver.
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Oh i definetly think that this camera will blow the Af-100 out of the water in terms of sheer picture quality, BUT...

i think the real problem is that at that price range its going to have to go toe to toe with the Red One and Alexa, even in the rental market. I see those two cams as its legitimate competition, as the price puts it far away from the market the AF-100/Scarlet/HDSLR curretnly appeal to. Based purely on specs (which we can't really know how it performs until it...performs) it doesn't look like this cam will able to hold its own. R1's with the Mysterium sensor are a beauty to behold.

Mind you, this is NOT taking into consideration the S35 Scarlet or Epic, which either by itself could be a total game changer.

I would only approach this camera as an option for rental, and given that, I'd likely rather rent R1 or Alexa. I doubt a staggering many would swing the other way.

If this camera is in the 16k category and set to go against RED, shouldn't it bring something better than a 4:2:0 color space? and something better than sub 2k resolution? Who is this camera targeted at?

Not angry, heartbroken. I was hoping to own one, now I know I can't. Simply as that.

Why do you think you can't own one? it takes money to make money, and this is the kind of equipment that can vault you into a new level of production. Don't assume you can't make a camera like the F3 make you a ton of money if you learn to master it.
My first camera package back in 1984 (a Sony M3A and VO-4800 recorder) cost me about $20,000 back then on a lease at 18% interest. I was just out of college and had no money. I took the leap and never looked back. Don't make the mistake of not investing in gear that will make you money. The gear comes first, and then the money second. That is the truth. Too money people don't recognize that you must have the right tools for the trade or you'll never advance.

I might be one of the few people that post here that do this solely as a hobby. I have no plans to make money doing any of this. I make fan films and dune videos, that's about it. I also have this thing about shooting at night. I love it for some reason. I am always on the look out for the perfect night camera. I bought the EX3 (and love it) mostly for it's low light abilities. The F3 has probably the best sensor for shooting at night that will ever come out.. ha ha..

There is hope yet. Sony may use that sensor in something more for the hobbyist like me. I'm not a fan of DSLRs I like Video cameras.

Sony seem to be pushing the F3 as a B camera for the F35 and the F9000, I assume they researched that market and discovered a need for a compact 35mm sensor camera that can fulfil that requirement. This is different market to the AF100.

Not everyone want to shoot on RAW and a lot of investment has been made in HDCAM SR for television production.

I agree, this comment got me thinking about that second mysterious lump under the red shroud...

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachme...erycameraw.jpg

While a lot of us might be hoping that Sony could have a surprise new lower-budget F3 sister-model under there, my gut tells me it might instead be a new HDCAM-SR portable recorder unit built specificallly with the F3 in mind (probably to use the new solid state SR media). Or it's just a selection of PL lenses - as has also been suggested here.

I think it does make more sense for Sony to offer a full SR-ready package to entice the market they are targeting than to split the market in two (not to mention the margin) by offering two cameras sharing "similar" tech specs at conflicting price points.

I think we probably will see (or at least hear about) Sony's answer to the AF100 some time next year, but at the initial suggested price point the F3 isn't it. I'm afraid we may well have to wait until NAB or perhaps even IBC for better news on that front.

Side note: three threads pretty much about the same thing is a bit difficult to follow.

I'd thought I'd note a couple of things. People are mentioning HDCAM-SR but note that dual link apparently will NOT be ready when the camera is released. It will be an EX codec camera with HD-SDI connected to whatever (AJA KiPro Mini, etc).

When Panasonic came out with the HVX200, the EX1 came a long while later. It may be many months before Sony answers the AF100 in that market.

Doug, a lot has changed in the market since 1984. Product life cycles are much shorter now as new gear with significant improvements can happen almost annually. Return On Investment may need to be much shorter as well.

Granted one needs to have the gear to make the money but one must look at your potential jobs coming in. If you see that having gear "x" can get you the job then get the job, buy the gear ASAP knowing the job will start to cover the cost of the job.

Too often though, people buy the gear thinking that will bring in the jobs. That was certainly the case when certain quality gear was "uncommon" but that's not as big a factor now. It's become the "good enough" factor now relative to shrinking budgets. If the client can't see the difference between an HDSLR, AF100, F3 but can see the difference in the rate you bill, they're going to gravitate towards "good enough."

EX1 and EX3 are being used as a B cameras on HDCAM SR productions (as are DSLR)s, I assume there's a demand for a small camera which is a closer match to the Super 35mm sensors on the main cameras. Having only HD-SDI would be fine for much of this type of work. The price may reflect that Sony don't expect to sell huge numbers of these cameras and it fits in with the price pattern for their other professional cameras.

For a lot of productions this camera will be overkill, however, there seems to be another camera hidden from view under the red cloth, which may be the lower cost option people are asking for.

http://www.fdtimes.com/news/?p=2914

Just spotted this production in progress - looks like a first real-world test for the (prototype?) F3... should be worthwhile and interesting to keep an eye on their findings!

There are also some great close-ups of the camera on location - giving a good indication of it's actual size - it somehow looks smaller than I imagined...
Short Film Featuring the Newly Announced Sony F3-Coming Soon!! | Stargate Studios VFX Channel

(BTW - I'm not connected to this production in anyway, other than having a shared interest in the capabilities of the camera!)

Gah. Sam & Stargate are just down the street from me, next door to my fav coffee house.

Get down there and demand a hands-on test!

...and grab me one of those Kaldi cappucinos while you're there!