Handholding an F3?

Ron Wilk · April 1st, 2011, 04:29 PM

Hi Nigel,

Thank you for the followup on the FS-100.
It may be more applicable to my shooting needs, as I already have and use a shoulder mount camera.
Guess I'll wait for its release and have a look-see.
Thanks again.

Dean Harrington · April 1st, 2011, 04:46 PM

I got a chance to hold the the F3 yesterday and I can say that it is bulkier than the EX1 and is definitely not a good idea for any extended period of time. I'd suggest a turtle over the shoulder support for this camera. That would work very well.

Jim Tittle · April 1st, 2011, 05:31 PM

Just received my Turtle-XS today. Tried it with the F3, but, unfortunately I can't make it fit me. It appears to be too short. (I'm 6'2" tall.) It does seem to bear the load of the camera OK, but that won't do me much good with the crossbar whacking me in the head...

I guess I'll have to settle for something more Zacutoish. (Zacutoid?)

Dean Harrington · April 1st, 2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Tittle

Just received my Turtle-XS today. Tried it with the F3, but, unfortunately I can't make it fit me. It appears to be too short. (I'm 6'2" tall.) It does seem to bear the load of the camera OK, but that won't do me much good with the crossbar whacking me in the head...

I guess I'll have to settle for something more Zacutoish. (Zacutoid?)

sorry to hear that ... I have a Marzpak made about 10 years ago but unfortunately no long made. I'm not sure why but the fact is that company is out of business. It's an excellent over the shoulder harness system and I've used it plenty of times where hand held is required.

Jim Tittle · April 2nd, 2011, 06:07 AM

Last week, I modified a Tiffen Steady Stick for my F3, and that worked OK. Not too robust, but usable. I'll keep using that until I figure something out.

When I looked at the photos of the Turtle-X, I thought that fit might be a problem, but I emailed Lars, and he said he's 6' 6" and it fits him. I suppose that "fit" is a relative term. But if I adjust the straps to put the crosspiece high enough, I have a belt cinched across my stomach. If I let the belt ride on my hips, the crosspiece lines up with my ear, and I can't get my eye on the viewfinder without scrunching over. Awkward.

Ben Ruffell · April 2nd, 2011, 03:03 PM

I shot a music video with the F3 this weekend. All handheld. We used the Redrock handlebars and shoulder pad mounted off 15mm narrow rods. We had a nano flash, compact primes, mmb-1 and followfocus.

The set up kinda worked. But far from ideal. A bit uncomfortable, the flip out screen was used for framing - but the quality of that image is terrible... and also very hard to see focus.

I had my Sony PVM-740 running for the director, and I relied on that to see what the image was really doing.

The camera was very sensitive, and the images nice. But the ergonomics are useless. Beyond useless even.

We had our choice of cameras on this shoot... Red MX or even the new SRW-9000 PL. We went with the F3 because of post workflow, weight, lens selection - and because I was just plain curious to try it out.

I won't be buying one, nice pictures are one thing, but the lack of design is staggering.

Clip will be posted and finished in the next few weeks - it will be up on my website.

Brian Lai · April 2nd, 2011, 06:20 PM

Don't give up yet. If you want to go minimal, use parts from IDC's U Boat system designed for the 5D - taking the knurled handle and screwing onto the tripod hole, slip a $5 bicycle handle bar grip on it, and balance the camera with your left hand on the handle. For a little added shoulder support, just screw the IDC shoulder support onto the 2nd tripod mounting hole.

Jim Tittle · April 2nd, 2011, 11:11 PM

Biggest problem is that I want to be able to use my left hand to focus, adjust aperture, maybe zoom. All the stuff I'm used to doing when I shoot handheld. Shoulder rig with counterweight is the only thing I haven't tried yet. Seems like a crime to make this camera bigger and heavier, just to be able to hand hold it.

Brian Lai · April 3rd, 2011, 12:45 AM

Ben, I totally hear and feel your pain. In Sydney I couldn't use the Cineroid EVF because the HDMI out was rendered inoperational when the Nano was receiving signal from the HD SDI out, but the footage is very impressive thanks to your advices. I now ask my AC to carry a loop and check focus on that horrible little side finder.

All the prosumer bits of the camera are annoying and I'm hoping the FS100 will be a cleaner design, but sadly read that it will not have HD SDI out, just HDMI. Sony designers should spend a day on the set to see what happens to that consumer grade connector when the cables get inevitably kicked and tripped by everyone.

Leonard Levy · April 3rd, 2011, 01:56 AM

Jim,

I'm curious - how much gear do you need when you go handheld? mattebox? followfocus?, rails?
ow much can you jettison to make it easier?

Brian Drysdale · April 3rd, 2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Tittle

Shoulder rig with counterweight is the only thing I haven't tried yet. Seems like a crime to make this camera bigger and heavier, just to be able to hand hold it.

Balance tends to be more important than the weight or pure bulk. There are instances where operators have used 1000ft loads on a 35mm film camera to balance out the camera.

I suspect putting an accessory eyepiece V/F around the lens mount line or a bit forward of that location would balance the camera without adding much extra weight or bulk. Some camera assistants in an early video of the F3 suggested this as they rigged out the camera for a shoot.

Jim Tittle · April 3rd, 2011, 06:03 AM

The amount of gear I need depends on the situation. Most commonly, I just need camera and lens. If I have the luxury of a focus-puller, then I need the rails and everything else. Right now, I'd be happy with just being able to hand hold the naked camera & lens.

I think having an EVF near the lens would be great, if a decent one existed. I keep wanting to put the camera body on my shoulder, where it belongs. The other option, with a rig that makes the camera 2x as long, with a counter weight, seems more likely right now.

Peter Mykusz · April 22nd, 2011, 08:16 AM

An interesting solution is in the works as a rental house (www.joesutherland.com) is in the process of building an ergonomic package. Joe originaly designed the EX-3 mounts that were built by SA and sold by EFGadgets here in Toronto. He is waiting for an EVF to make his F-3s suitable for handheld work.

Ron Wilk · April 22nd, 2011, 09:58 AM

I've been viewing the various camera porting solutions with amazement, and wonder just how these obviously shoulder-facilitated contraptions would qualify as hand-holding devices? Doesn't the very fact that they are designed to be placed on one's shoulder defy the definition of same?

Brian Drysdale · April 22nd, 2011, 10:44 AM

Hand held has traditionally meant using a camera without a tripod or similar and body stabilization systems

For the best quality hand held camera work you usually need two or three points of support, this becomes more important as the cameras become heavier and especially if the cameras don't have an image stabilization systems.

Hand held means more than holding the camera in your hand, it's a short hand for operating the camera without an other means of support, just using your body. Of course, you move the camera using your hand, but it's also stabilized using parts of your body.

The advantage of your shoulder is that you can hold the camera for longer periods of time compared to just using your hand. Cameras like the F3, with 35mm cine lenses, are getting beyond the handicam PD 150 type form - the Canon XF 300 is probably is just about the limit, although I wouldn't like to hold that like a handicam for too long.

April 1st, 2011, 04:29 PM	#16
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	Re: Handholding an F3? Hi Nigel, Thank you for the followup on the FS-100. It may be more applicable to my shooting needs, as I already have and use a shoulder mount camera. Guess I'll wait for its release and have a look-see. Thanks again.

April 1st, 2011, 04:46 PM	#17
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Re: Handholding an F3? I got a chance to hold the the F3 yesterday and I can say that it is bulkier than the EX1 and is definitely not a good idea for any extended period of time. I'd suggest a turtle over the shoulder support for this camera. That would work very well. __________________ Sony EX3, Panasonic DVX 100, SG Blade, Nanoflash, FCP 7, MacBookPro intel. http://www.deanharringtonvisual.com/

April 1st, 2011, 05:31 PM	#18
Jim Tittle Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 114	Re: Handholding an F3? Just received my Turtle-XS today. Tried it with the F3, but, unfortunately I can't make it fit me. It appears to be too short. (I'm 6'2" tall.) It does seem to bear the load of the camera OK, but that won't do me much good with the crossbar whacking me in the head... I guess I'll have to settle for something more Zacutoish. (Zacutoid?)

April 2nd, 2011, 06:07 AM	#20
Jim Tittle Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 114	Re: Handholding an F3? Last week, I modified a Tiffen Steady Stick for my F3, and that worked OK. Not too robust, but usable. I'll keep using that until I figure something out. When I looked at the photos of the Turtle-X, I thought that fit might be a problem, but I emailed Lars, and he said he's 6' 6" and it fits him. I suppose that "fit" is a relative term. But if I adjust the straps to put the crosspiece high enough, I have a belt cinched across my stomach. If I let the belt ride on my hips, the crosspiece lines up with my ear, and I can't get my eye on the viewfinder without scrunching over. Awkward.

April 2nd, 2011, 03:03 PM	#21
Ben Ruffell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Queenstown, New Zealand Posts: 117	Re: Handholding an F3? I shot a music video with the F3 this weekend. All handheld. We used the Redrock handlebars and shoulder pad mounted off 15mm narrow rods. We had a nano flash, compact primes, mmb-1 and followfocus. The set up kinda worked. But far from ideal. A bit uncomfortable, the flip out screen was used for framing - but the quality of that image is terrible... and also very hard to see focus. I had my Sony PVM-740 running for the director, and I relied on that to see what the image was really doing. The camera was very sensitive, and the images nice. But the ergonomics are useless. Beyond useless even. We had our choice of cameras on this shoot... Red MX or even the new SRW-9000 PL. We went with the F3 because of post workflow, weight, lens selection - and because I was just plain curious to try it out. I won't be buying one, nice pictures are one thing, but the lack of design is staggering. Clip will be posted and finished in the next few weeks - it will be up on my website.

April 2nd, 2011, 06:20 PM	#22
Brian Lai Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 61	Re: Handholding an F3? Don't give up yet. If you want to go minimal, use parts from IDC's U Boat system designed for the 5D - taking the knurled handle and screwing onto the tripod hole, slip a $5 bicycle handle bar grip on it, and balance the camera with your left hand on the handle. For a little added shoulder support, just screw the IDC shoulder support onto the 2nd tripod mounting hole. Attached Thumbnails

April 2nd, 2011, 11:11 PM	#23
Jim Tittle Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 114	Re: Handholding an F3? Biggest problem is that I want to be able to use my left hand to focus, adjust aperture, maybe zoom. All the stuff I'm used to doing when I shoot handheld. Shoulder rig with counterweight is the only thing I haven't tried yet. Seems like a crime to make this camera bigger and heavier, just to be able to hand hold it.

April 3rd, 2011, 12:45 AM	#24
Brian Lai Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 61	Re: Handholding an F3? Ben, I totally hear and feel your pain. In Sydney I couldn't use the Cineroid EVF because the HDMI out was rendered inoperational when the Nano was receiving signal from the HD SDI out, but the footage is very impressive thanks to your advices. I now ask my AC to carry a loop and check focus on that horrible little side finder. All the prosumer bits of the camera are annoying and I'm hoping the FS100 will be a cleaner design, but sadly read that it will not have HD SDI out, just HDMI. Sony designers should spend a day on the set to see what happens to that consumer grade connector when the cables get inevitably kicked and tripped by everyone.

April 3rd, 2011, 01:56 AM	#25
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Re: Handholding an F3? Jim, I'm curious - how much gear do you need when you go handheld? mattebox? followfocus?, rails? ow much can you jettison to make it easier?

April 3rd, 2011, 06:03 AM	#27
Jim Tittle Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 114	Re: Handholding an F3? The amount of gear I need depends on the situation. Most commonly, I just need camera and lens. If I have the luxury of a focus-puller, then I need the rails and everything else. Right now, I'd be happy with just being able to hand hold the naked camera & lens. I think having an EVF near the lens would be great, if a decent one existed. I keep wanting to put the camera body on my shoulder, where it belongs. The other option, with a rig that makes the camera 2x as long, with a counter weight, seems more likely right now.

April 22nd, 2011, 08:16 AM	#28
Peter Mykusz Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 52 Images: 8	Re: Handholding an F3? An interesting solution is in the works as a rental house (www.joesutherland.com) is in the process of building an ergonomic package. Joe originaly designed the EX-3 mounts that were built by SA and sold by EFGadgets here in Toronto. He is waiting for an EVF to make his F-3s suitable for handheld work. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Peter Mykusz; April 22nd, 2011 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Photos

April 22nd, 2011, 09:58 AM	#29
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	Re: Handholding an F3? I've been viewing the various camera porting solutions with amazement, and wonder just how these obviously shoulder-facilitated contraptions would qualify as hand-holding devices? Doesn't the very fact that they are designed to be placed on one's shoulder defy the definition of same?

April 22nd, 2011, 10:44 AM	#30
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Handholding an F3? Hand held has traditionally meant using a camera without a tripod or similar and body stabilization systems For the best quality hand held camera work you usually need two or three points of support, this becomes more important as the cameras become heavier and especially if the cameras don't have an image stabilization systems. Hand held means more than holding the camera in your hand, it's a short hand for operating the camera without an other means of support, just using your body. Of course, you move the camera using your hand, but it's also stabilized using parts of your body. The advantage of your shoulder is that you can hold the camera for longer periods of time compared to just using your hand. Cameras like the F3, with 35mm cine lenses, are getting beyond the handicam PD 150 type form - the Canon XF 300 is probably is just about the limit, although I wouldn't like to hold that like a handicam for too long.