Handholding an F3?
 

What is the feasibility of using the F3 as a handheld camera, assuming one uses light primes?

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I shot a full day hand held for a run and gun web spot. It can work, but just needs some fiddling with. I had a Zacuto base plate, Cineroid EVF, Zacuto shoulder pad, and a Red rock handle and cheese plate off the back. Put a Dionic on it (lasted a most of the day) and that acted as my counter balance on the back. I wanted the shoulder pad further forward, but it can be tweaked. Also had a Crosziel follow focus with reverse drive, and used a Tokina 28-70.

It was a mish mash of stuff but worked for what we needed. I think some more tweaking will help. Also I think there are some 3rd party manufacturers working on F3 specific shoulder mount systems.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Hi Nigel,
Thanks for the rely,but I was referring to handholding the camera without any attachments other than a lens. If I had to add a shoulder mount and all the other accessories seen in your photo I would scrap the idea of an F3 and simply use my PMW-350 ... it's already a shoulder mount camera.

With that in mind, how handhold-able is the F3 with only a prime lens attached. I recall from an earlier and disappointing experience with a EX1, that hand holding was not really ideal, if not downright uncomfortable.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Without accessories, the F3 is very difficult to hand-hold. If you have really massive arms, you might make it work, but eye level shooting without a brace doesn't work for me. I've ordered an EasyRig. Hopefully, that will solve the problem.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

As a strait shooter (not editor, colorist, producer or director that I am not) I can say that this camera sits in my arms much better than EX1 did. With the lenses I currently use (Tokina 20-35/2.8 and 28-70/2.8) and smallish Genus wide angle matte box on Genus GMB/A rails, Redrock follow focus and Sony 60 battery camera is more balanced and easier to hold using viewfinder or LCD. The shoot I did yesterday was a "run and gun" 2 segments custom homes renovation involving interviews and B-roll of various trades working inside and outside the house in construction. I was basically able to do the whole day of shoot with only one lens (20-35) with out really need to change lenses in "dangerous" (dusty) environment.

My new set up on tripod sits far better than EX1 did. With Genus/RR kit EX1 was always "nose heavy" and sitting funny on the tripod. F3 is much better.

I hope this helps...

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Thank you for your reply. I suspected as much, as the form and shape differs little from an EX1. I don't need another shoulder mount camera, already have one,albeit a 2/3 sensor as opposed to 35mm and am not interested in building a "rig" as was required for the EX1 and 3. I am searching for a high quality hand holdable camera ... guess I'll have to wait for NAB or the NEXCAM HD35.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Ron, there are enough videos out of the NEX FS-100 (aka S35 NXCAM), that you can get a good sense of what this camera is like. In short, it is not heavy, the viewfinder with the diopter attachment would be good if you are holding the camera mid belly height or lower, as the LCD is perched on top of the camera. Think Hasselbad in terms of form factor. However, it is lacking in built in NDs although you can use a screw on variable ND filter on their e-mount lenses that work with this camera.

Have a look around there are a number of threads on this FS-100 cam that show the camera and the ergos with relation to the viewfinder.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

The F3 can be work handheld in a very stipped down version with a light DSLR wide lens but it is far from ideal. Once a sturdy, compact third party EVF comes to market, this coudl drastically change the hand holding abilities of the F3. I am thrilled by neither of the current offerings from Zacuto or Cineroid but see a great potential in RedRockMicro's MicroEVF as long as it effectively come to market and offer HD-SDI connection with loop through.

Thierry

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Thank you all for your thoughts.
The Fs-100 might be a good choice for my stated purpose, but while I could deal with the absence of self-contained NDs, I'm not at all thrilled with its intended codec or the absence of SDI. However, I was surprised to learn that HDMI can carry a 10 bit signal. Anyway, with NAB only weeks away, it makes sense to wait and see if any surprises surface.

That said, it seems that the manufacturers, either by design or absent the comprehension of the needs and desires of the purchasing public, have endeavored to excel at imperfection. Either they offer a camera with great or almost great specifications, while ignoring ergonomics or do just the opposite. I would love to have 5 minutes with any of their design teams just to get a handle on what they are or are not thinking. Of course, somewhere in the equation sits cost of production and, the holy grail—profit—but I would venture to guess that most, myself included, would be willing to pay for a better and more complete product. After all, would you find solace in the availability of high quality aftermarket racing tires for your just purchased Ferrari that came with factory supplied bicycle tires? Not me. It should never have left the factory with such inadequate rubber. I'm certain you get the metaphor
Sorry for the rant, but I just don't get it. Why make excuses for these inadequacies by siding with the manufacturers with one inane excuse or another? We know they can do better, but if we continue to accept less than what we need or desire, then that's all they will give us.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Ron, if one complains all the time people stop listening. Don't think that we are letting the manufacturers off. For many of us, it is a combination of feigned resignation, choosing one's battles and getting on with it. I agree with what you are saying.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Of course, criticism and complaining are two different things. The best way to show disapproval is to take your money elsewhere. Or, just make something that's better.

There's a reason why there are so many Red cameras out there (not trying to make camera comparisons--just making a general point.)

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

A lot of little annoyances in design are usually rooted in costs and practical mass production decisions that are totally hidden and opaque to the end user. The accountant says you have to re-use that production line to save X millions in retooling, the engineer says but if we retool we can make the product X centimetres longer at the back and it won't fall off the tripod when the user blinks, and so on.

Companies like Sony are an entire ecosystem of design, resources and production. The decision they make may sometimes bewilder us, but I'd bet there is always a reason why, and sometimes it might be the simple but complex butterfly effect.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

[QUOTE=Jim Tittle;1633870]Of course, criticism and complaining are two different things. The best way to show disapproval is to take your money elsewhere. Or, just make something that's better..."

I agree in totality!
But there are a bevy of individuals who, for reasons beyond comprehension, persist in supplying excuses on behalf of the manufacturers. While an explanation for a given producer's (manufacturer) omissions would make for a nice read, as an enduser, I care only for the product in my hands. And any device, camera or otherwise, that requires a conglomeration of add-ons to bring it to the state that it should have been from the get-go seems senseless to me. You just have to take a gander at the photo several posts above this one to see what I mean. The user has taken a less than 6 lb. camera and created what I would guess to be at least a 20 lb. behemoth. Is that what Sony envisioned when they commissioned this product? It reminds me of days gone by when some VW Beetle owners installed Rolls Royce facsimile grilles on the front of their tiny vehicles.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

"...it might be the simple but complex butterfly effect."

I suspect the butterfly flew off before anyone actually got to test the finished product!

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Ron

Just got a chance to handhold the FS 100 at the EC Pro video event in NYC yesterday. Much better than the F3, and lots more ways to use it in that configuration, viewfinder, LCD, hand grip and small package. It worked much better than a DSLR, and felt comfortable with only the camera and lens

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Hi Nigel,

Thank you for the followup on the FS-100.
It may be more applicable to my shooting needs, as I already have and use a shoulder mount camera.
Guess I'll wait for its release and have a look-see.
Thanks again.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I got a chance to hold the the F3 yesterday and I can say that it is bulkier than the EX1 and is definitely not a good idea for any extended period of time. I'd suggest a turtle over the shoulder support for this camera. That would work very well.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Just received my Turtle-XS today. Tried it with the F3, but, unfortunately I can't make it fit me. It appears to be too short. (I'm 6'2" tall.) It does seem to bear the load of the camera OK, but that won't do me much good with the crossbar whacking me in the head...

I guess I'll have to settle for something more Zacutoish. (Zacutoid?)

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

sorry to hear that ... I have a Marzpak made about 10 years ago but unfortunately no long made. I'm not sure why but the fact is that company is out of business. It's an excellent over the shoulder harness system and I've used it plenty of times where hand held is required.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Last week, I modified a Tiffen Steady Stick for my F3, and that worked OK. Not too robust, but usable. I'll keep using that until I figure something out.

When I looked at the photos of the Turtle-X, I thought that fit might be a problem, but I emailed Lars, and he said he's 6' 6" and it fits him. I suppose that "fit" is a relative term. But if I adjust the straps to put the crosspiece high enough, I have a belt cinched across my stomach. If I let the belt ride on my hips, the crosspiece lines up with my ear, and I can't get my eye on the viewfinder without scrunching over. Awkward.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I shot a music video with the F3 this weekend. All handheld. We used the Redrock handlebars and shoulder pad mounted off 15mm narrow rods. We had a nano flash, compact primes, mmb-1 and followfocus.

The set up kinda worked. But far from ideal. A bit uncomfortable, the flip out screen was used for framing - but the quality of that image is terrible... and also very hard to see focus.

I had my Sony PVM-740 running for the director, and I relied on that to see what the image was really doing.

The camera was very sensitive, and the images nice. But the ergonomics are useless. Beyond useless even.

We had our choice of cameras on this shoot... Red MX or even the new SRW-9000 PL. We went with the F3 because of post workflow, weight, lens selection - and because I was just plain curious to try it out.

I won't be buying one, nice pictures are one thing, but the lack of design is staggering.

Clip will be posted and finished in the next few weeks - it will be up on my website.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Don't give up yet. If you want to go minimal, use parts from IDC's U Boat system designed for the 5D - taking the knurled handle and screwing onto the tripod hole, slip a $5 bicycle handle bar grip on it, and balance the camera with your left hand on the handle. For a little added shoulder support, just screw the IDC shoulder support onto the 2nd tripod mounting hole.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Biggest problem is that I want to be able to use my left hand to focus, adjust aperture, maybe zoom. All the stuff I'm used to doing when I shoot handheld. Shoulder rig with counterweight is the only thing I haven't tried yet. Seems like a crime to make this camera bigger and heavier, just to be able to hand hold it.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Ben, I totally hear and feel your pain. In Sydney I couldn't use the Cineroid EVF because the HDMI out was rendered inoperational when the Nano was receiving signal from the HD SDI out, but the footage is very impressive thanks to your advices. I now ask my AC to carry a loop and check focus on that horrible little side finder.

All the prosumer bits of the camera are annoying and I'm hoping the FS100 will be a cleaner design, but sadly read that it will not have HD SDI out, just HDMI. Sony designers should spend a day on the set to see what happens to that consumer grade connector when the cables get inevitably kicked and tripped by everyone.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Jim,

I'm curious - how much gear do you need when you go handheld? mattebox? followfocus?, rails?
ow much can you jettison to make it easier?

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Balance tends to be more important than the weight or pure bulk. There are instances where operators have used 1000ft loads on a 35mm film camera to balance out the camera.

I suspect putting an accessory eyepiece V/F around the lens mount line or a bit forward of that location would balance the camera without adding much extra weight or bulk. Some camera assistants in an early video of the F3 suggested this as they rigged out the camera for a shoot.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

The amount of gear I need depends on the situation. Most commonly, I just need camera and lens. If I have the luxury of a focus-puller, then I need the rails and everything else. Right now, I'd be happy with just being able to hand hold the naked camera & lens.

I think having an EVF near the lens would be great, if a decent one existed. I keep wanting to put the camera body on my shoulder, where it belongs. The other option, with a rig that makes the camera 2x as long, with a counter weight, seems more likely right now.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

An interesting solution is in the works as a rental house (www.joesutherland.com) is in the process of building an ergonomic package. Joe originaly designed the EX-3 mounts that were built by SA and sold by EFGadgets here in Toronto. He is waiting for an EVF to make his F-3s suitable for handheld work.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I've been viewing the various camera porting solutions with amazement, and wonder just how these obviously shoulder-facilitated contraptions would qualify as hand-holding devices? Doesn't the very fact that they are designed to be placed on one's shoulder defy the definition of same?

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Hand held has traditionally meant using a camera without a tripod or similar and body stabilization systems

For the best quality hand held camera work you usually need two or three points of support, this becomes more important as the cameras become heavier and especially if the cameras don't have an image stabilization systems.

Hand held means more than holding the camera in your hand, it's a short hand for operating the camera without an other means of support, just using your body. Of course, you move the camera using your hand, but it's also stabilized using parts of your body.

The advantage of your shoulder is that you can hold the camera for longer periods of time compared to just using your hand. Cameras like the F3, with 35mm cine lenses, are getting beyond the handicam PD 150 type form - the Canon XF 300 is probably is just about the limit, although I wouldn't like to hold that like a handicam for too long.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

QUOTE: "Hand held has traditionally meant using a camera without a tripod or similar and body stabilization systems

For the best quality hand held camera work you usually need two or three points of support, this becomes more important as the cameras become heavier and especially if the cameras don't have an image stabilization systems.

Hand held means more than holding the camera in your hand, it's a short hand for operating the camera without an other means of support, just using your body. Of course, you move the camera using your hand, but it's also stabilized using parts of your body.

The advantage of your shoulder is that you can hold the camera for longer periods of time compared to just using your hand. Cameras like the F3, with 35mm cine lenses, are getting beyond the handicam PD 150 type form - the Canon XF 300 is probably is just about the limit, although I wouldn't like to hold that like a handicam for too long."

First of all, let me say that I not a photographic neophyte, and to arrive at such an assumption without knowledge aforethought is a tad insulting. That said, I am fully aware of the advantage of a shoulder mounted camera, since I currently own and use a TRUE shoulder mount (PMW-350) and have owned numerous others over the years. However, to imply that hand-holding is anything more than the phrase literally implies is grossly misleading, regardless of its jargon usage. If that were the case, all shoulder mount cameras should likewise be considered hand-holdable cameras and while I guess, in some very specific circumstances, they can be used as such for POV grabs when held by the handle—that was not the intent of their design. It's unfortunate that a large sector of today's younger population has chosen to alter the English language to the extent that literal comprehension cannot be easily accomplished. So if your lexicon portrays hand-holding as anything that is not tripod mounted, I guess I understand why. However, I personally will continue to view the phrase in the literal, and for me, a shoulder mount is a shoulder mount, not a handheld mount.

BTW, I currently own an F3 and can say that it is by design a hand-holdable camera. I must admit, however, that it is not the best rendition of the aforementioned—given its ergonomics—but it was clearly not intended to be a shoulder mounted device.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

For years I've had the same solution for an HVX, EX-1 and now for the F3. A monopod with a cheap manfrotto tilt plate sitting in a fanny pack on my waist. I've been shooting with it though not with a rails or matte box and its been fine. Comfortable, flexible and not exhausting. TVLogic has been essential for focus though and I would prefer a decent EVF since the hoodman doesn't seem safe on this flip out.

It seems fine to me though I'm long overdue for comparing it to a shoulder rig I have around here to see if I really am as stable as it feels. Maybe I've been fooling myself.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I apologise if my post appears insulting it wasn't intended to be.

Personally, I prefer clean designs that are ergonomically well thought out and given that Sony are intending to people to use PL mount lens, which can weigh 4 lbs without accessories, and the camera alone weighs just over 5lbs, the handicam form factor isn't the best.

I would say that people are seriously discussing modifying it into a shoulder camera and you can see one mod in the S-log behind the scenes video.
Abel Cine have made prototypes with ET and are discussing the mod with Sony. ET did a lot to make the RED One a more usable camera.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

I just used the F3 again on a commercial. Full crew, mostly working off sliders and jibs. (Tiny bit of handheld). I have to say, it's not a well designed camera. In terms of true design the F3 is terrible.

We ran with Zeiss CP2's, Zacuto baseplate, Arri MMB-1, Arri Followfocus, Small HD Monitor for me to operate from, NanoFlash, and a V Mount Battery at the back.

Not having a fully orientable viewfinder slowed us down. It's a huge step backwards. Very similar to working with a DSLR. The balance and the bulk of the rig was awkward.

It just seems to me that so many things have to be added to the camera to make it work. Things that should be included and designed into the camera.

If you have a look at Dieter Rams 10 principles for good design: Dieter Rams: ten principles for good design

I don't think that the F3 ticks any of the boxes!

I am sure that I will continue to use the F3 (I have jobs booked with it next week), but I won't be buying one.

At least with a Red it's designed as a camera, with a viewfinder, and a body that does not need bits added to it. It's heavy, but by the time all of these bit's are added to an F3 I was wondering why I didn't just go ahead and rent in a Red MX? I have had great results from it with less hassle.

However, the only camera on the market at the moment that actually seems to have been designed is the Alexa. It is head an shoulders above the competition. (unfortunately the price also reflects that!)

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Understood and apology accepted.
I agree. It appears that the Sony design team has given little consideration to ergonomics with this camera format. First it was the ungainly duo, consisting of the EX1 and EX3, and now the F3. And I agree as well, that when used with PL lenses the camera quickly departs from the realm of hand-holdability.

I have been using the MTF adapter along with a bevy of old NIkon AI-S primes—they tend to add very little front-end weight. I plan to add a few Zeiss ZF lenses as well, and wish there was an adapter for the box of Leica M lenses that I have sitting on a shelf and which I use with a Leica M8.

As for Mr. Levy's mention of a monopod, on my supplier's recommendation, I have been using a Manfrotto monopod with detachable plate as well, and have found it to be a great alternative to a heavy tripod, albeit not quite as good for stability, but still better than nothing.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Although I've used just about every kind of camera in the business over the past 20 years, I own a DVX100 and EX3 and prefer smaller cameras as they generally are better for run&gun situations. That said, I have used a modified support plate on the EX3 with a Marzpak over-hang camera system for hand-held shots for the past 7 years for both the DVX100 and the EX3 that has kept my back in good order. The Marzpak is no longer being sold or built for that matter. I'm glad I got one when it was as it can easily carry 25 pounds (or more maybe ... haven't tried that yet) of weight in a balanced way. I have several mono-pods that I use in crowded situations that more or less works ... stability factors not the best ... that allows for the smaller cameras to be lifted above the crowd. I sweat each time I do this for fear of the camera falling but what the hey ... hasn't so far. Smaller cameras require some creative effort on the hand-held level ... I can see that the F3 is going to push this shoulder support effort to new heights
Peter Mykusz shows a photo of a tripod mounted system that will translate into a shoulder mount with some ease that I like very much.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

It's horses for courses, but I've always prefered any of my ENG-style 2/3" cameras for run-and-gun. With fast servo zoom, sharp B&W viewfinders, excellent shoulder balance and ergonomics, they are ideal for R&G.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

When it came out the RED One was wasn't a good hand held camera, you can find many threads on a number of cinematography sites about the subject. It was ET and other 3rd party manufacturers who produced the accessories needed to make the RED better.

It seems that some RED One owners are losing business to both the F3 and the Alexa. There could be an element of new kid on the block, but also the non RAW workflow seems to be a cost factor for some producers.

Strangely, the cheaper FS100 looks like a better modular design.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

Just shot my friends blues band in small cramped dark club. F3 on monopod with TVLogic 5.6 and Nikon 17-35 and 28-70 f2.8 shutter off, 18 DB.
Shot for 2 hours steady and I'm still standing.
I could shoot eye- level, waist-level, knee-level and a foot above my head. Hold the camera over the drums while moving it around or swinging underneath and 2' away from an incredible blues guitarist, and all the while watching focus with the TVlogic and changing those different levels in moments. Monopod took the weight most of the time.

Its got its flaws and I would love a decent EVF , but this camera can rock

Actually started to see a use for the god forsaken rear viewfinder . If you run with it in B&W the peaking is still red and stands out.
My beef is exteriors because there's no decent EVF and the hinge on the flip out seems to weak to support a hoodman.

All in all I think for run and gun there are advantages to little cameras with flip out or add on monitors, and to traditional shoulder mount cameras - depends what you're shooting.

Re: Handholding an F3?
 

On the 3D commercial shoot I did the other week the focus puller was able to look at the LCD on the side of the F3 with peaking on, to confirm focus, while the DoP and myself worked with a transvideo 3D monitor.

The F3 really isn't a run and gun camera in the traditional handycam sense. The lack of high range, servo zooms (for now) and the inherent shallow DoF and maybe even auto iris or one-push iris make it hard work compared to an EX1 or similar.

The FS-100 was designed to be modular. When I and others were invited to Sony to meet the design team it was one of the recurring messages that we gave and clearly they listened. It will be interesting to see whether other future designs follow the FS-100 style or continue to follow the more traditional F3 style.

I've been using a monopod with my F3 as because I no longer need my left hand to support the weight, that hand is free to concentrate of focus and iris etc. I also think that the F3 is a good candidate for a Turtle Rig or similar.