Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Doug, reread the post. I think you misinterpreted what I said to me a LUT was going to be a final grade. It just gives you an idea where you're going. A few comments are in order:

1) Everything is milky in S-log unless you have a LUT somewhere between the camera and the monitor. If you have a LUT that's close to what you want you'll have a much better idea what you're doing.

2) In a very real sense a LUT is like your picture profile. You have a half a dozen favorite PPs in your camera. You pick one that's going to be suitable for that situation. You then do a color grade from there. A LUT does not eliminate color correction or grading.

3) You'll be able to record 4.2.2 from port A with S-Log and from port B with a LUT to the monitor.

4) There is a reason that LUTs are used with Red cameras, Sony 900's, etc. when you need more out of them. The fastest turn arounds isn't the reason.

@Lenny, I think you're still stuck with 5600k and 3200k.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Another benefit of combining S-Log and a LUT is being able to record that LUT'd image. You can create a custom LUT that looks like a simple grade and yet, still keep the extra DR of S-Log. If you want a flat image for complete manipulation in post, then just record the S-Log without a LUT. But if you want a *final* image while using S-Log, then create a custom LUT with Sony's software, download into the F3 and record the monitor output with LUT applied.

Doug, if you try the custom LUT method, then you might get your desired result of not needing to grade.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Duke, I did reread your first post and I stand by my reply.

Quote: "But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done . . . minor tweaking to finish."

When you say "grading is pretty much done." that sure sounds to me like you expect the LUT to provide your final look. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you could have phrased it differently. I stand by my reply.

BTW, I do have an F3 with S-LOG so I am well aware of the workflow and the purpose of LUTs. Thanks for the refresher!!!

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Steve, you seem to know a lot about creating custom LUTs, so let me ask you a few questions:

1) Can Cinegammas be incorporated into a custom LUT or not?

2) Can you create a LUT that will match every single setting of a Picture Profile?

3) Can you perfectly expose simultaneously for a custom LUT and S-LOG at the same time?

4) How will zebras be effected by the custom LUT? Or in other words, how how will I determine the correct exposure for S-LOG (assuming I am not dragging around a waveform monitor) if I am viewing a LUT in the viewfinder?

5) How will I be able to set a custom white balance for the LUT while S-LOG is activated?

Thank you in advance. Your answers will save me a lot of time testing.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Hi Doug,

I haven't had a chance to play around with the Sony LUT software but will do so sometime soon.

1) About cinegammas: I do know that 2 of the included LUTs are designed to replicate a Hypergamma with a grey point of 40 or 33. Also, the "P1: 709" is a very useful LUT which gives a decent S curve while still keeping the entire 13-14 stops of DR. Based off what I have seen and read about these LUTs and my personal experience with LUTs in vfx, I believe it should be possible to make custom LUTs to eliminate grading. For me, I think a simple Curves adjustment in my NLE makes the image look great, which should be simple to make into a LUT.

2) A 3D LUT only affects color; so, no ability to change detail and sharpness settings like a PP.

3) With a LUT applied, the image in the LCD changes; so, if you record from the monitor output, then exposing should be straightforward.

4) I'm not 100% sure about zebras and a LUT because my experience so far has been recording to non-LUT S-Log and I used a TVLogic for judging exposure.

I hope some of this helps :) I am not an *expert* on S-Log, but I like it so much that I am happy to help in any way including conducting tests on my own. So, keep the questions coming, and if I can't answer now, I will make a list and try to test them later this week when I get together with my friend and his F3.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Yes, I probably could have phrased it better. Sorry. It just sounded like you don't like S-Log with a LUT. But perhaps you're still evaluating because of the lack of Mac software.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Any word on when in November this new firmware will be released?

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

I'll be speaking with my Sony contacts this week. Last they told me was: "Very very soon"

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Pardon me if this was answered already in earlier pages, but in Version 1.3 will the image with the LUT applied also be outputted through the HDMI out if that was chosen instead of SDI for the regular output.
That would be important for those of us owning or contemplating buying an HDMI EVF.
Thanks

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Hard to say until it is actually available, but as of right now, there is no HDMI output at all when S-LOG is turned on.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Can't wait to see comparisons of our pimped up F3's to the Canon C300, especially after EI S-Log enabled. Gonna to be a heated battle and indeed interesting times for all.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

In terms of real world shooting, the extra resolution of the C300 *might* be noticeable (its only ~150 more lines of res); however, the C300 cannot come close to the current 13.5 stops of DR of the F3 + S-Log and 14 stops of DR with EI S-Log. The C300 is limited by its 8 bit codec so squeezing more than 11 stops of DR would cause problems in post. Alister has written extensively about the problem of combining 11+ stops of DR with an 8 bit codec (thanks to Alister - I have learned more from you about signal processing than anyone else :)

Moreover, using a flat gamma, such as Canon's log, with an 8 bit codec can cause even more problems IF it lifts shadows and compresses highlights too much. I haven't seen Canon's log gamma; so, I don't know how it looks. The smart guys over at FXPHD/FXGUIDE.com have taught and discussed the Canon DSLRs extensively, and they were one of the first to show concern over the Technicolor profile because it compressed the image too much for an 8 bit codec.

However, I wonder if Canon will state that their Log gamma is to be used only for recording via SDI. Although, I vaguely recall reading that Canon is touting their log gamma as not needing anything extra like the Sony S-Log; so, I presume they designed the log gamma for internal recording.

UPDATE: I just read that the C300 is *only* 8 bit via SDI. Sorry, but $20k for an 8bit camera is absolute nonsense in 2011/12.

When are Canon and Sony going to realize that Red is the only company providing customers with all of the necessary features we actually WANT such as internal 10-12 bit recording. (although, you must spend another $10k for the SSDs) If the Scarlet can come close to the low noise of the F3 AND the claimed 13.5 stops of DR, the F3 + S-Log + external recorder is not looking so great. Most people don't need RAW or 4k capture (people, STOP SAYING 4k RESOLUTION when it refers ONLY to the # of pixels), but having an internal 10 bit recording would be hugely popular. Sony really needs to make the F3 with S-Log and SR1 built into the body. They could provide the HDCAM-SR Lite for free and unlock the 440 & 880MB/s HDCAM SR via a paid upgrade key. With a 220Mb/s, 10bit AVC codec, the HDCAM Lite is better than Pro Res HQ.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

8 bit through SDI kills the C300.

We'll have to see when the Scarlet is in people's hands, but it remains to be seen how many people will accept its compromises.

As you point out 4k acquisition is ~3.6k resolution. What will most people do with that? Down rez it to 2k?

Variable frame rates, but at the expense of sensor cropping, which will affect FOV, surface area of the sensor for loss of light sensitivity, and in effect make your lenses tele's.

Whereas the F3 stays at S35. If you really need 4k I think most people will rent a Red One.

It will be interesting when there is actually use and comparisons going on.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Actually, 4k acquisition equals far less resolution, about 2400-2600 TVL due to being a Bayer sensor.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

I have my hands on the latest firmware, EI mode and all. Looks like EI adjusts the LUT applied to the different outputs, but the S-Log output always remains the same. This makes sense when we think of Exposure Index as being just like a post push. I'll test the actual dynamic range tomorrow. Should be interesting.

Andy

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Uhg. The Red approach. I was hoping this is what EI mode *wasn't*.

I've been shooting S-log to SxS with great success, at 0, 6, 12, and 18. This is going to compromise that now. Also it's going to mean you need multiple S-Log LUTs in color correction, one for each ASA. But with no metadata to tell the colorist which he should use? The Red way works because the ISO metadata travels in the R3D.

If this is all the case, I hope EI mode I can turn off and go back to the current S-Log method with 1.1?

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

You can switch EI mode on/off

Ned

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

And you can still add in camera gain to EI S-log using the gain switch. The base ISO is reduced to 400/800 as opposed to the current 800/1600, but you can still use the gain switch to increase the S-Log ISO even with EI S-Log enabled, so you have the best of both worlds. Add gain direct to the S-Log or just to the LUT output.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Whew.

:-)

Thanks for that very important info.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Alister

That's odd, the firmware I have doesn't seem to work that way. I'll do some more testing. When EI mode is on the gain switch does nothing.

Andy

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

OK, the only firmware I played with did allow the use of the gain switch. Perhaps it's different on the release version.

Either way you can turn EI mode on and off so you can choose either method.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Andy, did you get the S-Log with EI tested for actual DR?

I'm very grateful that you test on the scope so your tests are comparable to one another, unlike some other testers. Keep up the good work.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Quote from Andy "When EI mode is on the gain switch does nothing."

Yes, I can confirm that.

Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"
 

Wrong. I have to correct myself on this. You can use HDMI if you don't mind giving up SDI. In other words, when S-LOG is turned on you have to choose SDI or HDMI output, you cannot have both turned on at the same time like you normally can. This adds a wrinkle to the output configuration if you use an HDMI EVF as I do.