Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

FS5 is the model name now being reported. Still waiting on spec.

Sony PXW-FS5 is The Name of the New FS 4K Camera Coming to IBC 2015 | Cinescopophilia

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

So many conflicting reports, this site reports Full Frame while SAR reports S35... Guess we'll have to stay up tonight to find out, and I will be tuning out of there is no 60p. I know others will tune out if there is no 10bit output capability.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

No handle and no loupe? Better be less than $5k.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I'll bet it's a FF sensor. Sony is putting all it has into FF lens development right now. A PXW-FS5 Full Frame camera will help separate it from The FS7 nicely.

Remember...the curent A7s sensor will NOT do 4k in Super35 mode! This will very much help protect the FS7's market place from this new FS5

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Excuse my ignorance.

I had assumed a larger sensor was "better". (Greater control of depth of field, greater sensitivity, etc.)

In reading this thread over the last few days, it appears that this is not necessarily so.

I personally can't see putting a smaller sensor on a more expensive camera, then putting a full frame sensor on its baby brother.

Can someone educate me?

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Full frame will unfortunately not be able to scan as fast as it's Super35 counterpart due to current limitations in technology. This is partly where the 30p limitation could come from. (which would be a gigantic disappointment, but this is due to tech limits, not that they don't want to)

So it would be closer to a VG900 in terms of tech but a step up in terms it's actually super sampling the image. However, it will not have the scan rates as the FS7. At this current state of tech it would not be possible at all to scan that full frame sensor at 60p and still supersample for 4K if it is indeed a full frame sensor.

What would really suck is a lack of XLR inputs.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

The 30p thing is not a deal breaker for me.

The XLR thing is a deal breaker for me.

As goofy as it is, the loupe and handle thing might be a deal breaker. I'm tired of putting together a hundred pieces that were jerry-rigged after the release of the camera. I shot with a magnetic loupe on a 5D MkII for a year, and that thing fell off the camera a thousand times. Never again.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I seriously doubt Sony would exclude XLR inputs on an FS camera. On a VG series camera, sure. But the FS line is professional level. It fits between the FS700 and FS7.
Of course it will have XLR inputs.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I don't think it's so much the physical size of the sensor, it's the size of the data it dumps to the processing. The A7S with 10 megapixels in 16x9 is not allot of data throughput by today's standard. The A7R-II and the RX10-II certainly produce allot more data for each read cycle. The read clock speeds are slowed down to keep heat down. They have to drive these sensors as cool as possible to keep them clean. The A7s body with passive cooling doesn't help the heat problem much...so yeah, They are forced to give us rolling shutter jello.

SONY doesnt mind though. Rolling shutter jello helps keep the models further apart for marketing reasons.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

The VG900 has barely any active cooling and that sensor is likely entirely passively cooled.

So we can expect really bad rolling shutter from this cam as well? It's the HPX300 all over again then.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

The point that so often gets missed is that greater dof, better sensitivity of the larger sensor is only true *IF WE TALK ABOUT THE SAME F STOP IN BOTH CASES*

And excuse my capitals, but that is often not the case, so the assumption goes out the window.

Think of a bit of basic optics. If the sensor in camera A has 4x the area of camera B, then it will follow that for equivalence (angle of view) it needs a lens of twice the focal length. It then follows that if both are to be (say) f2, the lens of camera A must be twice the diameter of camera B. Or 4x the area.

Conversely, if instead they each have the same diameter lens, then if for camera A it's f4, for camera B it will be f2.

The bigger sensor will have a higher base ISO rating for cam A than cam B (all else equal), and it should be 2 stops better. But f2 at ISO 400 should give exactly the same lowlight performance as f4 at ISO 1600, yes? So unless the diameter of the front element is larger there is no advantage in sensitivity OR dof terms in going to the bigger sensor.

Practically, what a larger sensor does is give the POSSIBILITY of using bigger diameter lenses, as it's increasingly difficult to make lenses with apertures bigger than around f2, certainly f1.4.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

The VG900 has a visible heat sink area around the front end of that camera. Also, it line skips, so it's not reading all the pixels on that sensor. It might only be reading 1 line out of every 5 lines on the sensor grid. Well?... only a handful of people in the world can really tell you those read out numbers. (a few Sony engineers in Japan)

The VG900 only does 1080 and not 4k. So, it only needs about 2 million pixels per read cycle. 4k requires a minimum of 8 million and today, Sony often over samples to get down to 8. So by today's 4k standards, the VG900 has a very easy job at 1080.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

FS5 HD Sydney footage


FS5 4K version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BLf...ature=youtu.be

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

At $6699 body only (suggested list price including taxes) this FS5 seems priced very high relative to the FS7...but a C100MkII killer for sure as it offers 4K and a few other things that lacks. Not sure it lived up to the "missing link" hype though...my English cynicism means am I not surprised!

Love the lighter weight and smallish size compared to the FS7 plus some of the cool variable/auto ND and flexible recording features. Pity 4K codec is only 4.2.0 and 100Mbps XAVC-Long GOP but at least it has some good external connections and they needed some differentiation to protect the FS7, understandably. I also like that it has 10 bit 4.2.2 HD, and that the HFR and burst options keep this quality.

I see this as a worthy successor to my C100 and the fact it takes relatively cheap SDXC cards and the same batteries as my PMW-300 and my former EX3 is a bonus as I have loads of them!

Official Sony info page below:


http://blog.sony.com/press/sony-expa...super35-model/


As soon as one of my favoured UK dealers gets a pre-order link up I'm probably going to hit their link :-)

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I've just pre-ordered a PXW-FS5 with CVP who have it (currently) listed at an opening price of £4,100 ex VAT and will price match. H Preston Media also have it (currently) listed very slightly less, £4,082 ex VAT. I've bough cameras from both of these very well respected UK dealers in the past (my C100 and PMW-300 respectively).

Now begins the waiting game...

Also, for the record, CVP currently list the C100 MkII at £3048.33 ex VAT (and I expect that might move downwards a bit after November, assuming the FS5 starts shipping on time!)

Just hoping the FS5 street price falls a bit before mine gets shipped - as the price sure does seem a bit high relative to the FS7 (which I've considered in the past but which don't want to lug around all day...). I ruled out the C100 MkII at it's launch as I'm not buying any more cams that don't have some kind of 4K capability anymore - even though I expect it will be several years before my clients want anything in 4K. Sure, the FS5 will only come with "entry level" 4K, i.e. 100Mbps 4.2.0 at 8-bit, but I think it'll be a terrific 4.2.2 10-bit XAVC 50Mbps HD cam.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

B&H Photo's prices:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185425-REG/sony_pxw_fs5k_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I'm assuming that's body only, Andy?
Fully agree with the last bit, but as far as 4K goes, I think the codec is less important than other factors. For UHD, 4K means 4096x2160, QFHD means 3840x2160 (16:9). It's worth noting the FS5 is QFHD only - not "cinema" 4K - which may or may not be important, depending on usage.

Secondly, in QFHD the max framerate is 30 fps - not 60. Does that matter to you? Worth thinking about.

As far as the codec goes, then yes, 10 bit would be nice, but may be expecting too much in a camera in this price range? But 4:2:0 for 4K progressive is no problem at all - 4:2:2 has only been insisted upon in the past because of interlace. Now we're solely talking about progressive formats, there is no problem with 4:2:0.

If you don't believe me look at the latest version of the EBU tiering document - https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r118.pdf . (Table on page 12) For UHD (very highest end production) they specify a minimum bitrate for long-GOP of 200Mbs, but for colour space "4:2:0 but 4:4:4 preferred". In other words, 4:2:0 is fine, but if only the best will do, go to 4:4:4 - 4:2:2 needs to be left behind with interlace.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

How does XAVC-L 10-bit, 4:2:2 50mbps compare to MPEG2 8-bit, 4:2:2, 50mbps? In 1080 30P.
The FS5 does not have MPEG2.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Hi David,

Yes, body only.

Regarding the QFHD versus 4K UHD thing - then it seems that 4096x2160 4K will be available at some point in the future (along with Raw output) as a "paid for firmware upgrade". Not bothered about that now, but maybe one day I will be. I learnt a long time ago to buy techie things on what they will do out of the box, not on what might be promised but never arrive (or arrive eventually at some unknown price point).

Regarding 4K at 50/60 FPS, sure that would be great - this thing will only do 30 FPS in QFHD, but as far as I'm aware the only "4K" cam that is offering that at anywhere near this price point is the DVX-200...another cam I thought hard about. I'm passing on the DVX-200 as I'm not convinced by some of the footage I've seen during it's long drawn out (and IMHO badly handled) "launch".

I think I'll be fine with the HFR options in Full HD for a while (1080p50 was a must for some sports work I occasionally film) and the "burst modes" in Full HD might be great for certain things.

Thanks also for the clarification around 4.2.0 and 4.2.2 regarding 4K. I've read that elsewhere by you and others so, note to self, I won't get too hung up on it anymore.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Glen,

My Sony PMW-300 can shoot in a 4.2.2 at 50 Mbps XAVC at 10-bit (not sure what flavour of XAVC at that bit rate - off hand - but it will do higher XAVC bit rates). It will also do the XDCAM MPEG-2 in 4.2.2 at 50 Mbps. I've worked with both.

I think most would agree that, assuming your NLE can handle it (Adobe CC on my new Mac Pro can but CS6 on my old Mac Pro can't), XAVC is (generally considered) the superior, more efficient and modern codec (but is more computer intensive to edit with) whilst the XDCAM MPEG-2 codec is much easier to edit - but I'll let others such as David who have deep knowledge of these things comment.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

It's not so much that I'm hung up on 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0.
It's my broadcast clients who are insisting upon at least a 50mbps, 4:2:2 in 1080/60i or 30P codec for a camera.
That's why I'm wondering if XAVC-L 50mbps, 10-bit, 4:2:2 is the same as or better than XDCAM 50mbps, 8-bit, 4:2:2. Can I sell it to my clients?
I can explain the difference between 4:2:0 in progressive and interlaced to them until I'm blue in the face, but they won't budge. The producers i deal with are rarely camera pros and only go by what they've been told by their engineers.
I have never had a broadcast client (or any client) request 1080/60P. Not once.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

And for HD (1080) I think the insistence on 4:2:2 is fair enough - my previous post was about UHD - 4K and QFHD, when 4:2:0 should be fine for the vast majority of work. (And when it's not, it's likely to need 4:4:4.) Even if the HD material starts off progressive, it may end up treated psf - and it's the psf/interlace factor that led broadcasters to insist on no vertical subsampling.

But all the UHD variants are progressive - end of story.
I suspect in strict quality terms the answer is likely to be "better". But the question is whether it will fit into their workflow? The bigger the organisation, the more rigid their workflows may be, and the less they may want any codec or delivery method that they're not used to.

And whilst there is a lot about the FS5 to admire, then why oh why not take more account of legacy issues and include the legacy XDCAM codecs? You may not choose to use such rather than XAVC if you have full control of the production path, but what to do if your client has XDCAM as their in-house format and can't handle XAVC?
That doesn't surprise me too much as 1080p/60 isn't a broadcast format, and now UHD is here is never likely to be - I'd expect a leapfrog to 2160p/50(60).

May be it's a case of Rome not being built in a day - but everybody expects it to be! Wanting everything all at once. Together with what Andy says about true 4K (4096x2160) likely coming to the FS5 as an upgrade, that makes me feel a lot better about the FS5. I can see it being highly popular with the low budget cinema people, and they're the ones who are most likely to want the cinema aspect ratio. For a lot of the other work, QFHD is fine.

And for the "cinema" applications, the announcement that it will gain RAW for external recording is only likely enhance it's appeal here.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Yeah, I'm surprised they don't have XDCAM HD. Especially when it has XDCAM written right on the side of the camera body. There are lots of broadcast clients who use this and it's integrated into their workflow.
Hopefully it can be added in a future upgrade. Is it possible, for some reason, you can't record this codec onto SD cards?

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Good point, and I think you may have got it.

Personally, I'd have been happy with XAVC and XDCAM 35Mbs - the latters pretty popular in the UK for the likes of news etc, and normally to SDHC cards via an SxS adaptor.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

4:2:0 in 4K on the FS5? Really? Still shooting certain things with PXW-X200, I will wait for more 4k offerings, I hate that darn grip on the FS7 plus that slow power zoom lens.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I wonder if that kit lens is any good? Having a power zoom might be nice.
I might consider this, but really need to give thought to lens selection, could get carried away and get pricey. Would probably need something wide and something fast to go with it.
Since I can't find any specs on stabilization, I assume there's nothing internal and all down to lens etc. I like the 'Active' mode on my X70 for HD shooting, too bad there's nothing like that.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

The SELP18105G is a nice compromise. I use it on an FS100 and I don't even mind the insane distortion (which is compensated for on everything except the FS100). The zoom isn't fast when using the knob on the lens, but it's quick if you whip the dial.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

This camera might serve whatever demographic it's intended for. Not for 4K digital cinema shooting, unless you add an external recorder etc. to get 4K 10bit or RAW it seems. The DVX200, URSA Mini and the newly teased RED camera look more enticing for my purposes and probably some others. Good to wait some more.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I like it. Right size so I can fit into a carry on pelican case (FS7 was HUGE!), good price, codec bitrate that won't destroy my storage solution at the moment. The ND filter is cool and the modular form factor works for me. Grip looks comfortable and the LCD is in the right place for my shooting style. RAW would be a perk down the line. The EVF looks like the one from the AX100 which is small but high quality.

I was hoping for 150Mbps and I got 100Mbps. That'll work for the moment. SDXC storage is nice compared to the spendy options that are developing right now. I was looking for a 4K C100 and I think we got it. As a stopgap to the next level (RAW, 60p, etc) I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Curious about auto focus abilities and wondering if the ISO can be changed via dial without having to set individual values to the L/M/H switch.

EDIT: ISO can be adjusted via hand grip joystick.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

There is a reason Sony is not investing the time into looking into UHS-II SD technology: 1. Panasonic is already doing it with MicroP2 2. It has potential to cannibalize XQD sales.

This camera is PERFECTLY capable of outputting 60p in 4K, they just want you to get the RAW upgrade to do so (wishful thinking here) or they just want you to stick to UHS-I cards.

Had support been added for UHS-II, 150mbps 60p would have been possible on SDXC.

As it stands right now, I'm not interested. No 60p (which is supposed to be the next broadcast standard) is a deal breaker. Also, did you notice how the XLR positioning kind of harkens to Panasonic's odd XLR positioning?

Plus, the XDCAM branding should not be on a camera which supports ZERO legacy codecs.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

What's my best bet to put my hands on one of these without flying to Amsterdam? Particularly on the left coast?

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Arguably S35 is the "optimal" size, and it is by far the most common size in Hollywood.

For many reasons such as: most cinema lenses used are designed for it, it gives shallow DoF but not so shallow it makes the focus puller's job impossible and takes get ruined, it isn't too prohibitively expensive to build sensors for (as sensor size goes up, costs rise even more sharply!), lenses are not too prohibitively expensive either (ditto the same point), and the same points apply to weight/portability too (compare the size of Pentax 645Z with a lens, a smallish medium format camera, with a Sony NEX camera with a pancake lens!).

In short, S35 can be seen by many as the current "sweet spot". Thus the bigger a sensor gets as it gets closer to S35, that is a good thing, but once it gets bigger than S35 that is bad.

Note: some of these points are inherently subjective, thus a few people will instead argue FF/VistaVision is instead the "sweet spot". A few mad folks will even argue for medium format! :-P

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I own that lens, it is a really nice run and gun lens, and far cheap/wider/lighter than the Sony 28-135mm f/4

Get a few primes with this, and a longer lens for your tale needs (plus perhaps a Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 in Nikon F Mount for your UWA uses) and then you're quite well sorted with lenses.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

For those of us who have pre-ordered the FS5 or eager for news I've just seen this comment by Alister Chapman on his FB page. Sound promising…

Direct quote below:

"Spent the evening shooting with the FS5 last night. Not ideal weather as it rained, but I'm impressed. It's a very easy camera to use. The 18-105 power zoom works surprisingly well and it's almost like having a PMW-200/EX1 type camera where you can just run and gun, zoom in, zoom out with ease. The small EVF is actually pretty good, it's OLED so has really good contrast and is sharp, just a little on the small side. Variable ND is great for coping with changing light without altering the DoF. Not had a chance to closely examine the footage yet, I shot a mix of S-log3 and Cinegammas but at the first look, it appears to be very good. At 3200 ISO it is very sensitive and noise is well managed. There are LUT's for the VF and LCD but not the SDI/HDMI output. Really nice to have the same super slowmo functions as the FS700 again, appears to be less prone to aliasing."

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

And just to add to this…I was filming in a Boxing Club last night with my C100 in minimal kit mode (without my Ninja Blade mounted), just using the poor EVF and mostly the LCD screen for focusing/framing etc. It was fun dancing around the action trying not to get in the way/on the end of a stray punch!!!

Couldn't help think whilst I was filming it all (for HD web delivery) just how useful 1080p50 (and even 1080p240 bursts, now and again) would have been to have had as options :-)

A much better EVF than the C100's really poor one would have helped too (even with my C-Cup it's barely adequate…) although I mainly used the LCD screen as I needed to keep aware of the fast moving action in my surroundings!

The one thing I think I'll struggle with on the FS5 is the lack of Wave Form Monitor - I use it really often on my C100.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

What do you guys think about doing ENG style shoots (following faster moving subjects, or uncontrolled subjects) with these style cams (i.e. sensor size/shallow DOF, lens zoom range limitations compared to fixed lens ENG cams) in general? I have only used C100 a few times and it was for talking heads or situations where I was quite far from subject so focus plane was more compressed.

One thing I like about the ENG cams is that you DON'T have to futz with switching lenses all the time. I shot B-cam on some interviews the other day with a 5DM3 and 24-105. I was probably 4 feet or less from the subject to get a tight CU at the end of the zoom range. If I understand correctly, with an S35 sensor cam I could have backed up to all of about 6 ft away.

Do you guys find you can stop down enough/crank up your ISO enough to get enough DOF to not be manually tracking focus all the time (especially on a BOXING MATCH. Sheesh!)?

I love the look of those types of cams but worry about the practicality in the field.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Using the FS-100, I found the servo focus ring to be more of a problem than the shallow DOF. Using a mechanical focus ring, I could keep them in focus most of the time.

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Hmm. Good point. I guess I'm spoiled by almost always using manual rings. I tried out the X70 at a local store and that ring was one of the things that put me off it (though maybe more 'cause of the long throw than the servo-ness of it).

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

I get on pretty well with the C100 for run-n-gun BUT the main limitation is the very short focus throw on my (Canon stills) lenses...which is why I also have a PMW-300 and use that in certain work. Horses for courses.

It is possible to get a pretty decent "keep" rate for shots using cameras like the C100 once you know the limitations but there is no doubt it's a lot easier sometimes on my PMW-300. However, that won't go as wide as the C100 with an ultra wide angle on it, won't produce such pretty pictures (especially in low light where the Sony will get soft when shot wide open) and of course does not allow such control over DOF, when you want that - especially in controlled interviews etc. Skin tones also look a lot better on the Canon.

I suspect the FS5 will be a similar beast to the C100 for ENG - although with the servo controlled (via camera zoom rocker) 18-105mm Sony G kit lens it'll perhaps allow one to operate it a bit more like an ENG camera (Alister Chapman inferred as much in a Facebook comment this morning).

Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
 

Just to clarify some information that I posted yesterday on this thread. Initial reports said there was not a Waveform Monitor on the FS5 - which worried me a little as I use the WFM on my C100 and Ninja Blade a lot.