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New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
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Sony released a teaser for IBC. Any guesses as to what it will be?
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-n...#disqus_thread |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
I posted this in Area 51.
Initially I thought it was the 1'' fixed lens Exmor R NX100 successor with 4K, but once I found out it was E-mount, I then thought about either a EA50 replacement with a different form factor or a VG30 4K version. No clue on sensor size. APS-C? Super35? |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
on the image the ea50 and the fs7 are already shown and it says a new "fs camera" so probably the fs100 replacement.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
oops, you are right, it's a fs700.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
The outline looks like a mini FS7 with a EVF on the back. A FS3 or FS5 perhaps. think a squat little body like that would be great, the FS7 turned me off because of its size. If the FS700 is $4k and the FS7 is $8k, I'd expect this one to "fit" right at $6k. As for the rest, we'll just have to wait and see, Sony seems to surprise me more often than not with features on budget cameras like these.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Yes, the image shows:
A7S > FS700 > FS??? > FS7 Curious thing here is that they include the A7S in the FS-series line-up. That combined with another image with the text saying "Missing Piece" enhances the feeling I've had for month that the new FS camera will be full frame. That would make the series: FF > S35 > FF > S35. To me, at that position ($5-6000) a full frame camera is the only thing that really makes sense. Making something similar but better than the FS700 and you have the FS7. Making something just smaller/cheaper/less functions than the FS7 just makes it an FS700 with XAVC. With a Full Frame camera they can leave out quite a lot (high frame rates, some higher end codecs etc) to make sure it doesn't quite compete with the FS7 while still have something unique to warrant the price and cause a buzz. And they would finally have a camcorder that's a perfect fit for the 28-135 cine lens. The silhouette looks like an FS7 with a viewfinder in the back so I assume they will have many similarities. Maybe the built in shoulder pad etc is gone to make it slightly smaller? Really excited for this one! |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
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Missing Piece...
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Full Frame a7s Sensor for super high ISO
4K internal 1080 120P, 60P, 30P, 24P xavc 10-bit 422 color space SDXC cards built in 1920x1080 5" monitor with scopes looking forward to seeing what it is for real. lol |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
If it's full frame, it would make that 28-135mm lens make sense.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
The first thing that stuck out to me was the "tulip" shaped lens hood on the thing, which implies a zoom, and typically a rather wide zoom. Are we looking at a fixed lens here, or are they also announcing a companion to their 28-135 f power zoom, perhaps a 17-55 or something more useful on a super 35 sensor (which I think this is going to end up being).
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
I blogged my thoughts about it last month:
Sony FS100 discontinued, “Sony FS1” coming soon? | David Peterson |
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Oh, so a VG900 replacement it may be then, just with much better EVFs and a proper LCD placement.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
The FS100 form factor was common in it's time; I'd be shocked to see them use it again. I'd expect something more like an FS-7 form factor.
Despite my statement that it having a FF sensor would explain the 28-135, I can't see them putting a FF sensor on the "FS1" while the FS7 has a Super 35. |
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My guess is it will have much in common with the FS7. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Here are my crazy guesses for this thing:
I suspect that the "FS-?" will be Sony's answer to market against the Panasonic AG-DVX200. Yes, they are going to be very different types of cameras but they both might be in similar price points and both aimed at some degree of ENG work.(even though fighting big sensor focus is not fun for ENG work) I think Sony will draw very clear and careful lines between this "FS-?" and their current FS7. The FS7 is a huge hit for Sony and they are NOT about cannibalize themselves and put unnecessary pressure on the FS7's sales numbers. Here goes.... SENSOR: The "FS-?" will have a FF sensor - FF and Super32 are often thought of as different markets with Super35 as the true "pro" one. Sony is also investing heavily into it's new FF lens lineup. A new full frame "FS-?" will certainly help to move more Sony FF lenses from the store shelves. It also gives the Sony 28-135mm FF Cine lens a new home.Today, this lens not as not well suited to the current FS7's S35 crop. FRAME SIZE: I strongly suspect that Sony will keep this a 1080/UHD camera. I'm guessing that Sony will not allow DCI-4k as to help keep pressure away from the FS7. The Panasonic DVX200 does have DCI-4k but I just don't think Sony is willing challenge that feature. They will hold stubborn on this. Also, I HOPE is uses a sensor with a bit more resolution than the A7s. The A7s only does true UHD in FF. In Super35 mode, it's got allot less than the 8 mega pixels needed for UHD. (But then again, this might be the market separation tactic that Sony wants) FRAME RATES: 1080 will see up to 120p and UHD will have 60p. I think that Sony would rather leave UHD at 30p but I think that Panasonic will be twisting Sony's arm on this one. I think Sony might hate doing 60p on this "FS-?" but in the end they will do it. CODEC: 1080 - The Sony "FS-?" should be similar to the very cheap Sony X70 in 1080 HD and that means 10bit, 4:2:2. Sony is focusing on 4k now and is very willing to "loosen up" on the old 1080 marketing restrictions. I'm sure internal UHD will probably be locked at 8 bit, 4:2:0 with 4:2:2 over it's HDMI port. I see no chance in Hell where internal UHD will be anything more than this. I'm sure this will also be a long GOP only and no intra-frame options. CONNECTIONS: I'm betting we will see the usual 3G SDI for 1080 and HDMI 2.0 for UHD 60p. SLOG-2: I think Sony will want this camera to be limited to 12 stops of dynamic range. The Panasonic DVX200 and all the other sub $5k players do 12 stops and I think Sony will be happy to just match it. SLOG-3 and more than 12 stops of DR will be the solid domain of the current FS7 and I don't think Sony is willing to add more DR to this lower model. Plus, you really need 10bit anyway to normalize SLOG-3. If this cameras has these features and is in the $5000 range, I'm totally getting one. (Hope my wife is not reading!) I suspect,..no, I KNOW that it's going to be a FANTASTIC low light performer. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
There are three most likely calls for what the front end will be. First is using same s35 sensor as the FS7 - which I feel a bit unlikely, would make it difficult to differentiate from the FS7.
Next two most obvious would be to use either of the front ends from the A7R ii OR the new RX10/100, either combined with video oriented back end. Is it confirmed it will be "E" mount? I don't see that in the Sony tease, only the rumour sites? If true, if it IS E mount, it points most heavily to the first of those scenarios, the full frame sensor from the A7R ii with a video centric body. Personally, I can see room for both. A full frame camera with interchangeable lenses, and a camera based on the new RX10 sensor and lens, but both made far more video friendly and with full broadcast I-frame only codec etc. Quote:
In that respect I'd think something based on the RX10 chipset (with built in zoom lens) was a more direct competitor to the DVX200, but I'd be more inclined to guess it's going to be the full frame model. Who knows - we may get both at the same time? Quote:
Compare 2/3" with full frame, and the latter I believe is very roughly 16x the area of the former. On a like for like comparison, it may therefore be expected to be about 4 stops more sensitive. (Because of the larger photosites.) So assuming all else equal, then for an f2 lens on 2/3", you can expect identical performance to a f8 lens on the FF sensor, of 4x the focal length. Identical low light performance, identical depth of field. Work it through and even the size/weight of the lenses are likely to be very similar. Large sensors CAN mean shallow depth of field, but ONLY if used with fast lenses. |
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I also don't think that the AG-DVX200 is the competition, that's a fixed lens ENG/event camera. Sony has their own cameras in this segment fighting that battle. The competition here is mostly the C100mkII (and the Black Magic cameras). While the FS7 fights the C300 (and soon mkII) at a significantly lower price the FS??? will come at a rather similar price as the C100mkII, which means it will have to beat it in features. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Here are my guesses
Sony PXW-FS5 4K XDCAM XAVC No Grip extension Handle Some of the menus grayed out Super 35mm Single-Chip Exmor CMOS No loupe on LCD XAVC-L QFHD 50 3840 x 2160/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p XAVC-L 35 1920 x 1080/59.94p, 50p, 59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p XAVC-L QFHD MPEG-4 H.264/AVC 59.94p/50p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 150 Mb/s 29.97p/23.98p/25p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 100 Mb/s XAVC-L HD 50 MPEG-4 H.264/AVC VBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mb/s MPEG-2 Long GOP 1920 x 1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p 1280 x 720/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25 MPEG-2 Long GOP CBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mbps, MPEG-2 422P@HL Audio Input 2 x 3-pin XLR Line/mic/mic +48 Mic Reference: -40. -50. -60 dBu SDI Output 2 x BNC HD/3G-SDI SMTPE292M/424M/425M HDMI 2.0 1 x Type A USB USB device, miniB Headphone 1 x Stereo mini jack -16 dBu 16 Ω Remote Stereo mini jack (Φ2.5 mm) |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
I expect 8 bit 4:2:0 only in the XAVC-L QFHD mode. And the lower bitrate option has to be 60mbps. You'll have an option of 60mbps, 100mbps for framerates up to 30p and 150mbps for 50p or 60p. No 4:2:2 option in 4K except out the HDMI.
Also, it may be full frame, but be aware of weird crop factors if they choose this route. If it's the same Super35 sensor, expect all the framerates and crop factors to be normal, but no RAW options whatsoever. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Am I missing something, or is UHD so close to 4K that the differences are insignificant (literally a few hundred pixels)? This is not like 720p and 1080p; you're talking one being 95% or so as large as the other. Even if you had to scale up to real 4K for delivery, would you even notice?
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
You crop away the extra pixels for Cinema 4K to "Broadcast" 4K. A 16:9 safe essentially. Most broadcast will be 3840 sourced anyways, only if you need to deliver to Digital Cinema will 4096 matter.
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Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Alexa's older non-4k resolution has been upscaled drastically for 4k projection with no visible artifacts. Not comparing Alexa to this new cam but an UHD image does not need "as much" stretching
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UHD is defined as an umbrella term, defined by the CES as referring to a system with a resolution of at least 3840x2160, so can be used to refer to 4K UHD and 8K UHD etc - in other words "better than normal HD". QFHD uniquely refers to 3840x2160. Both QFHD and "cinema 4K" have a pixel height of 2160. The difference (as you imply) is solely in width - 4096 for 4k, and 3840 for QFHD. So yes, a few hundred pixels in one sense, but it means 4K is a wider aspect ratio than QFHD. Converting QFHD to 4K means cropping the image and then rescaling up - yes, possible, but it's generally better to avoid any rescaling if possible. Shooting true 4K (4096x2160) and outputting QFHD is far better - a simple crop horizontally and no rescale. So if uncertain which aspect ratio you want to end up with (or you may want cinema and TV versions), it's more desirable to originate 4K and crop to QFHD than the other way round. |
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You're right though, starting with a full raster DCI 4K will always be better taking into consideration that we're actually finishing in 4K. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Can we hope it supports SD cards? I've finally gotten a surplus of SD cards in 32 and 64GB... it'd be nice if I didn't have to start over.
Oh, and F970 batteries. I have years worth of 970 batteries. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
Thanks. But in real world practical terms, if you, say, had a cam that only shot QFHD and client wanted their final delivery in "real" 4K, so you had to upscale, would the image quality suffer noticeably or only to pixel peepers?
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So the new camera sits between the cheaper FS700 and the more expensive FS7? I predict it will be called the FS70.
But this speculation belongs in the Area51 section, not the Industry News section. It won't be "news" until we see the first official announcements and spec sheets. Remind me, when does IBC start? |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
IBC is next week. I'd expect news before Monday morning, Amsterdam time.
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Sony's IBC2015 News & Press Centre : Broadcast & Professional A/V: Products : United Kingdom : Sony Professional |
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Other elements like the dynamic range, color rendition, sampling, etc. of the camera come into play when upscaling so it's always advised to start with a high quality image to begin with. The more you pay, the more you play. With all the new cameras coming out by less known "giants" who hold their own as far as latitude, RAW processing and color sampling, we don't have to worry about it as much anymore. |
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I think the answer has to be that if you think there's much likelihood of getting paying work that specifies 4K (rather than QFHD), then just make sure you get a "true" 4K camera in the first place. |
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC
1am Pacific time on Friday - I'll be there!
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More rumor info from SAR:
Quote: "New Sony F cam Friday is S35, not FF. 4K internally, but 8 bit XAVC-L (note the L) 100 Mbit max. No HFR as far as I can tell, 30fps max in 4K. Looks like a baby FS7. Price will be between old FS700 and current FS7, likely $5,000-6,500 USD. Differentiation on FS7 is much better CODEC, higher frame rates (incl 60p 4K), option for RAW and ProRes, bigger build." Not confirmed, remember. |
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I saw this same rumor. I gotta believe that Sony is going to ether give more (like UHD 60p) for a $5000+ price. If these really the specs than I must believe that the price will be lower.
If it really is a small FS7 that is SOOO heavily crippled?...I don't know but those rumored specs don't seem very interesting. |
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They BETTER not limit 4K to 30 frames. Production and the new broadcast standard is 60 frames and to cripple the "missing piece" that badly makes no sense, especially since the DVX200 can to 60 frames (albeit with a massive crop factor) and can output at least 4K 8bit 4:2:2 out the HDMI with that framerate. 100mbps though worries me, cause that is the bitrate of XAVC-S 4K30p.
Give it the Long-GOP options of the FDR-AX1 and FS7 and I'll be happy. WITH 60p. Leave out 60p and I instantly am not interested. |
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Damn, hope they don't limit it to only 8 bit. I'd personally rather give up 4K 60fps and keep 10 bit!
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I am with Jack. No QFHD 60P and I am not interested. Do not see why they would discontinue the FDR-AX1 that I have and introduce a model with lower spec. Doesn't make any sense. I still think it will be a e-mount with similar spec to my FDR-AX1 but maybe XAVC-L rather than XAVC-S. That would leave spec room to the Z100 and the FS7 and room for a real replacement for the FDR_AX1 with XAVC-S.
Ron Evans |
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