FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I want to copy some clips from one SDXC card to another. Any way to do this with cards in the camera? I checked manual, and through menu options and seems I might be out of luck. I used to be able to do this on my C100.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

No way to do that on board the camera, but it is really easy to do with Catalyst Browse. However, just be warned that the process may change your clip names if those names already exist on the first card. One of the biggest shortcomings of the camera is not having control over the clip naming. I'll never get used to that.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Wait... What?!?

I've heard of oversights with the camera, but this is yet another big oversight for people that may need to copy cards for clients and etc...

Can you in the very least copy the entire card to another in camera? If you can't even do that, it's honestly STUPID for field DIT work if you don't have access to a PC.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

No, you can't copy an entire card either. But I'd have to disagree that this a shortcoming of the camera. And don't forget that the camera offers simultaneous recording to both cards in most shooting modes.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

No, this is such a shortcoming. What if you shot with a card that has 2 separate shoots on the same card? Then the client only requests one of the two, you have no access to a PC on location (say it's ultra remote) and you have to copy those specific clips to a client card?

If people bring up the argument "then adapt" or "you should have prepared for it, stupid." I'll say why break a feature when it has it's legitimate uses and is available on the other cameras in the XDCAM series. You should have features to HELP DITs, not make their lives harder in these circumstances.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I'm not going to waste time debating whether it is a feature worth having or not. But the bottom line is that it can't do it. Period. On a list of reasons to buy or not buy the FS5 this has to be way down on most people's lists. I'd rather have it make toast than copy cards.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I can see now where you're coming from now that ALL future Sony cameras no longer have that function.

This is such a push to force Catalyst on unsuspecting camera owners.

A Nexto DI sounds about right if that's how it's going to be.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I'm definitely with Doug on this one... plus a couple more comments...

I think having the dual record option is a huge plus. (This leads directly to a dual-record 'save' story, which though not on a camera, still involved an SD card -- Last Sunday was shooting an archival of a theatre production - 3 cameras plus audio recorder. Cameras all shooting SxS cards -- no issues there -- but audio mixer recorder was saving its 10 audio tracks to SD & CF cards. 90 minute show (approx 8.8 Gigs of audio - so the Sound Devices recorder makes a new file every 3.6 Gigs) -- 3 .WAV files. Went to transfer Audio files and the 3rd file on the SD card was unreadable! (Sinking panic feeling-- we really needed all 10 tracks!!) Luckily the CF card was fully readable and saved the day. Thank You Dual Recording!!! (Will I ever know what the SD card problem was? - probably not - sound man and equip were both top notch, and he uses only recommended cards and pre-tests them.) I'm just happy we didn't lose anything because we had a dual record backup.

I do have another thought about the whole 'camera as copying deck' issue -- which is that although this is probably a feature that could be added in later firmware, I tend to worry about the possibility of losing/recording over data from users unfamiliar with 'deck menu' operation in the camera. I'd rather go with the dual-record from the start...

And Jack -- I've had a Nexto for several years, and am a big fan of the extra level of data security it brings - and of its speed and ease of operation. Not necessarily the cheapest option, but certainly convenient and easy to pack.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Yeah, if Sony's not going to include a USB 3.0 Host interface on their cameras like the Panasonic cameras currently have to even eliminate the Nexto from the equation, I'm going to have to get a Nexto if I buy a Sony in the future. The PMW-PZ1 has exactly this USB 3.0 copying function, but still doesn't have individual clip copying management. It's whole cards or nothing.

I realize it's to eliminate PEBCAK, (I cannot disagree that selective copying can lead to issues) but you can't discount the software division liked (and you could theorize, forced) this change to increase use of the "free-to-play" (video gaming term) Catalyst Browse. When used properly, the copying to another slot is so useful for making "client cards" in case you have multiple shoots on your primary card. XDCAM EX made it so easy to backup in camera. Once everything moved to XAVC, there shouldn't be a step backwards.

What they COULD do is hide the function deep in the menus, then you have to manually turn this on, and provide a warning that the user accepts responsibility for any loss of data. Or if they really wanted to make Catalyst Browse be a stopgap, they could lock the function until a serial number is generated in Catalyst Browse, and that has to be input to unlock the function in camera, and even then, it's only a switch which will warn the user each time about loss of data if switched on.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Why not just shoot two shoots on two cards? Cards are $25. I travel with no less than a dozen.

What location is so "ultra remote" that you wouldn't have a laptop but you would urgently need to copy files from one card to another so you could hand a card to a client?

I get it that you don't like this camera, but I don't get why every minor issue you make a huge deal of on this forum. The camera you want doesn't exist at your price point. I get it man, I've been there. But why not move on?

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I want to like it so bad, but it's got so many things that made me think the R&D was so rushed... and the questionable business practice of locking features or stripping features is something I only expect from something like the PlayStation division.

The hardware is designed so well, but what runs it is so underpowered and limited.

And this feature being stripped from all future Sony cameras is frankly so stupid to force people onto Catalyst Browse. There's no reason to remove a feature if there's not some alternative method of file management that scared Sony Creative Software so much that they asked them to remove the feature to bolster Catalyst sales and installs.

I want to hear from non-objective observers: People like the OP of this thread expect this feature from every other brand of camera, and all the people that have endorsed Sony now say "This feature is the devil and we MUST change our workflows to match!" I know there's money to have people say "Catalyst is the best thing ever!" being exchanged.

If you truly want people to in the very least install Catalyst once, have it generate a serial number to unlock features in camera. If you made Catalyst Prepare free for camera owners, then locked LUT import access until you punched in a serial number into the camera that Catalyst Prepare generates after you install the software, that's a fair trade, you get your install and you get the feature, even though it's an extra step to unlock. Same can be said for Catalyst Browse. It can generate a serial number in the software to unlock file copying in camera. (Even if you had to do a compulsory registration, this is a fair deal)

Panasonic and Canon have none of these problems. XDCAM EX had none of these problems. When Content Browser surfaced and the paywall for metadata viewing started, I knew they were going on a downward trend.

If only the Nexto can get licenses to clip manage file formats (so that it can fully read camera metadata and copy over in native camera file structure) like the Odyssey gets licenses for RAW options...

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

If you would run into a situation like that and not being able to give the client what he wants means you got there totally unprepared.

First I would never mix shots from different shoots onto the same card but get a set of cards for each shoot and use them to dual record to for safety, if I was shooting on a ultra-remote location I'd also take a small lightweight laptop with me to offload my footage after every shoot for back up purposes and copy the entire card structure, I think any professional would already know if a client would need footage on the spot because that is something you talk about when you get hired for the job.

I can understand it can be a nuisance to some that Sony decided not to implement this and who knows, they might give it back with a firmware update but as it is now, it's not a reason to screw up a job because you can't blame the camera if that would happen.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Thanks Doug. I'll look to do it inside Catalyst Browse. Ideally I could paste / delete clips before archive (unneeded interviews, etc). Will see ...

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Somewhere between people who are objective and people who are non-objective are people who are realists. Here's the camera Sony has offered at a given price point. It has some features. It is missing some features. If you want more features, spend more money. If you don't want those features enough to spend more money, don't buy them.

I like chicken tacos. And I like steak tacos. Chicken tacos save me a couple bucks a plate. That's what I usually order. I don't order chicken tacos and then express outrage when I don't receive steak tacos. Furthermore, I don't try and start a riot on an online forum, and get others to match my outrage. I knew what I was getting, I bought it, here it is.

I get it that weird stuff like the "can't record HDMI out and use the onboard monitor and use SDI out all at the same time" wasn't exactly advertised, in fact was hidden until the camera shipped, But still, it was made public (very public) before the camera ever left the factory, and if it wasn't going to work for you, you could cancel your order. I ordered anyway. No regrets.

What I'm trying to get to here is that this forum is filled with people who 1) own the camera 2) are contemplating buying the camera. You are neither. You're an activist with a bone to pick. What gives? I just don't have that kind of energy, and I don't understand those that do. I'd rather spend my time on something that gives back.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

This is one reason EditReady is so nice, batch renaming to custom name.

And you can transcode or just rewrap as you copy the clips. Stripping silent tracks is great as well.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

The Sony decision to remove the copy feature pisses me off more than just the poor rushed engineering choices for processors in the FS5. Profits from removal of features and paywalling of existing features is just not worth the degradation of UX. Sony's been notorious for this on the PlayStation brand. I didn't want to see this behavior spread to the professional market, where business is based on trust and flexibility.

There are other ways to ensure you can still get revenue and install base from using your file system and the code to manage it. License it to people like Convergent Design or Nexto DI so that they can still do the same work, but you still get a cut of the use as profit cause it has to still be a purchased option. (and I will point out, it's not a paywall to an existing feature, it's an optional new feature.)

Heck, if they combined the Nexto DI NSB-25 and the Odyssey 7Q+ in one device, then add licenses for managing Canon, Panasonic and Sony file structures and previewing formats, that thing would sell like hotcakes. You'd have a RAW recorder, Monitor, 6G-SDI, 4x 3G-SDI, and HDMI 1.4 recorder, Backup device, File Manager, Optional 4 camera switcher & recorder, Preview device for camera clips, Multi-card reader, and then if you include a USB port that supports Wi-Fi and/or Ethernet adapters, you can receive IP streams or setup a portable FTP server.

And BTW, the only thing I'm holding off on the Odyssey is DNxHD and DNxHR support.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

+1. Totally agree.
I've only used the FS700's "copy" function once to and from the 128GB Flash Memory, and that was to see if it worked. It did but it was as slow as a wet week and while copying is happening you can't use the camera. Not surprised Sony has dropped the function. Just having more sets of cards works for me.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Oh so the inability to use the camera is what feedback they took from this, huh? I guess this is a clear difference between freelance and episodic. Freelancers have the time for a copy while episodic need to go back out to shoot immediately.

Still, Catalyst should NOT be the only piece of software able to manage Sony's camera original file structures. Nexto devices should be able to as well, on individual clips with full metadata copying as well with camera file structure. This point I will say is very feasible if you licensed a option for the device that is available for optional purchase to manage in native camera file structure. They already have a purchasable 4K transcode option on the NSB-25, so there is a framework for this in the device itself.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

It's about being a professional, a professional uses a camera that supports his workflow, if copying clips in-camera is crucial to your client, then buy or rent a camera that supports this, period.

Also, if copying in-camera is as slow as Christopher said and if you can't use the camera during this process, who do you think is first to go out and shoot immediately again, the one that just replaces his cards with new ones and leaves the old card with the client or the one that is waiting with the client while his camera is copying data? :D

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Fair enough, but modern PCI-E and SATA interfaces are faster than what Chris experienced with the FMU128, which is USB 2.0 based.

In any case, I'll make sure to invest in a Nexto device if I make a new Sony camera purchase, cause both Macs and PCs are getting ridiculous for their own reasons, and Vanilla Linux installs still have crude support for exFAT.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Even if the copy process is fast, taking a sd card out, hand it over and stick a new card in is still way faster, you can be out shooting again in a matter of seconds while they can use the card to start editing right away. Just calculate the cheap price of the sd cards the fs5 uses in your invoice and you might question why you would ever use a incamera copy function if time is critical.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

The FMU is USB 2.0 when used externally to a computer but when it's in the camera it uses its own multi-pin interface which is way faster to move clips with than using the USB when connected to a PC.

In spite of it being much faster internally, being flash memory, than its USB port it is painfully slow when you try to transfer a 90 min shoot in camera. It at least does see the 90 mins as one event but it is still 2GB files transferred one by painful one.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I guess this is yet another generational gap where we're now facing the prospect of media prices finally being cheap enough to store on a shelf rather than you have to re-use it each time. (At least for SD cards)

I came from the days when P2 and SxS was ridiculously expensive, and you didn't have many P2 or SxS cards because they were ridiculously expensive. XQD and SxS still is too expensive to archive for a single use, they are to this day media that has to be re-used a lot. My memory card purchasing strategy has reflected this. I still own only one full-size 64GB Sandisk Extreme for backups and transfers as a companion to my XQD S series card. A gigantic initial investment to go all in and re-use for as long as the card still works.

Freelancers are always underpaid. I don't have the luxury of getting a 6 or 12 pack of SD cards or XQD cards willy nilly. You work with what you have and can afford, hence why the initial investment was so important. Slot to Slot Clip and Card copying works for me, because I don't want to connect my camera via USB all the time to a PC. (I'm slowly moving away from Windows, so I need maximum flexibility with clip management minus Windows and without purchasing ridiculously expensive and port limiting Macs.)

If I'm upgrading Sony cameras though, with this new development, my initial investment for the new Sony workflow will have to be steeper.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Who's connecting the camera to a computer???? That's even more lame than card to card copying.

An SD card reader is less than $20, and the last time I checked an XQD reader was about $35. Why would anyone in their right mind use the camera as a card reader?

On the rare times when I need to off-load cards on a shoot (usually on a road trip) I use Shotput Pro to make multiple backups to USB3.0 drives. They are cheap, fast, and reliable. So much better than just cloning a card. Jack, you really have to stop thinking about how things were done in the past and change your methods.

BTW, I disagree with your comment that freelancers are underpaid. Not the good ones.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Correct me if I am wrong but unlike the fs7, the fs5 does not require more expensive XQD and SxS cards? If I look at what bitrates the fs5 shoots I"d say any regular sd card will do so not sure why you keep referring to those more expensive cards considering we are talking about the fs5 here?

Also you don't need to have a bag full of cards, if your clients expects footage on a card right after a shoot then just factor that cost into your invoice if it would mean buying extra cards, or rent a camera that has a in-camera copy capability and add the rent cost to your invoice, I really don't see what the problem is here.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

In another thread you referred to the "generation gap" as the difference between youtube amateurs and professionals, not sure what you mean by it now?

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I am considering the FS7 so this would be a completely valid concern since that camera uses XQD.

When I talk in context about this feature being gone, it's going to be gone from ALL current and future Sony cameras, for which some still use expensive media. I'm not talking solely about the FS5.

And yes, I am getting a Nexto DI device to offload cards if I eventually move to use the FS7 or a cheaper 1'' 4K 60p fixed lens camera in the HXR-NX100 form factor.

Freelancers usually don't have the money after initial investment, but have tons of time. They can wait for a file copy, but their initial investment in cards stays with them and they re-use them till they need to be replaced. When cards were super expensive, freelancers hold on to expensive memory cards like they were their babies. Episodic has tons of money, but zero-tolerance for downtime. Card buying in bulk (AT ANY PRICE) is very feasible, so are ridiculously speced backup solutions and workflows.

As cards got cheaper, you have a new generation growing up on ridiculously cheap flash memory that know nothing about the pains of initial investment in recording media.

I'm also coming from a perspective of living in one of the top 5 most unaffordable cities in the world on Disability. I have Asperger's. I've been chronically unemployed for 3 years.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Considering you do have a limited budget I take it you are a freelancer? Since freelancers have tons of time then surely getting your footage to your client is also not so urgent then so you might as well do that at your home behind your pc. Like you said, "They can wait for a file copy" so what's the big deal then with that missing copy feature?

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

When I meant time, I meant the patience for an on site file copy. I'm often restricted to the field and run with one large capacity card per type. The XQD for my EX1R remains in camera, while the SD backup might be needed by the client right then and there. And I only have that one SD card matching the size of my XQD card that the client has to return. If I had to shoot directly on the SD card, I'd run into unbelievable reliability risk and that being my only high capacity SD card and me only having one MEAD-SD01, it's counter-intuitive. The EX1R also doesn't have dual record.

Things get interesting if they provide me with a client card AFTER the event concludes on site, then I have to copy the footage to it. With all future Sony cameras, I'd be screwed. I'll need that Nexto to save my behind. Most of my clients don't want to arrange additional meetings after an event has concluded unless absolutely necessary. (If you haven't guessed, I do event and convention videography)

I know stuff can so be remedied with dual record, but my current camera doesn't have that. In fact, the only purpose of 2 slots in all future Sony cameras is card spanning and dual record now. I've managed to live so long barely touching Clip Browser cause the copy function does everything I need for it to do. I only use Clip Browser to transfer to a card and have the camera VTR rendered clips and edits on a card.

I'm moving away from the PC as my initial file transfer location. Windows is getting kind of ridiculous. Mac likes spewing DS_Store files on the card if your media has no write protect, (which XQD doesn't!) and Vanilla Linux out of the box has no exFAT support. (Plus Catalyst and any Sony suite software will not run on Linux)

If you're reading this and thinking "What a mess this guy runs..." That's my Asperger's. I'm terrible at communicating through negotiation, advertising skills, and cold calling. I excel at the actual skill of camera operating though.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Why is that? I have been transferring data from sd cards to a pc every since I got my first dslr, a 550d, from windows xp up to windows 7 without a problem.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

The communications thing isn't that big of a deal, Jack. You've mentioned the Asperger's thing before, and it really helps me understand you. I still can't comprehend the need to worry about stuff that just doesn't matter, but I probably don't understand Asperger's like you do, and I'm sorry if I'm a jerk to you sometimes over something that you can't control.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Windows 10. MS is trying to ram it down everyone's throat. First with the aggressive and excessively nagging adware they installed with Windows Update, now they're disqualifying Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 for ALL security updates on all new Intel, AMD, and ARM processors.

Microsoft won't support many Skylake PCs without Windows 10 | InfoWorld

Enterprises aren't even ready, and now you're disqualifying all new PCs with new processors from getting legacy OSes with proper security patches? That was the final nail in the coffin. I'm moving to Mac, a Hackintosh, or Linux.

----

Mike, that's the absolutely right response to someone having said issues. I'm glad you said that. (and this is not sarcasm. I wish more people were understanding like that)

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I actually dislike Catalyst and wish Sony had kept developing Content Browser. But with that said, Catalyst works very well as a viewer and utility to copy individual clips when I need to do those things. But other than those two uses, I have no need for all the other things it tries to do.

And as I said before -- YOU DO NOT EVEN NEED CATALYST -- if you just want to backup cards.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I"m still on win 7 pro with my editing software, I have not updated the OS in months, don't need to as it's not connected to the internet and it works like a charm, I installed win 10 pro on my wifes pc (mainly with photo software) some weeks back and beside the fact that some thing work differently and take time getting used to she has had no issues either so far. You don't hear me complain.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Noa, you still have risk connecting other people's flash drives if you run Windows, even if you're offline. I adopted Steve Gibson's TNO computer security strategy and always transfer files in a Linux Live CD sandbox if I have no clue what viruses they may have picked up on their thumb drives. The Nexto also doesn't have major vulnerabilities for device based copying. That's going to be my first copy/sandbox once I purchase a new Sony camera.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I have a image from my OS with macrium reflect from my entire system that is virus free, if I would end up with a virus that came with a file that I got from a client I can get a virus free system within 15 minutes. Instead of only looking at possible problems I look for easy solutions and it works for me.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

Okay, that's thinking ahead Noa, I can commend you for that. I personally stick to Live CD sessions of Linux, since only CDs and DVDs can be trusted as a read only piece of media. You can always flip the bit on a USB key or SD card so that it's write capable again even if you set the whole drive or card to read only.

Since I'm out in the field or it's difficult to get permission for use of others' computers (and it breaks the TNO strategy), I need the Nexto.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

I recently went out to a remote location with several cameras, including the FS7, and my plan was to dump my XQD cards to my laptop. I misunderstood the "recording times" for S&Q mode though, and instead of getting 135 minutes per 128GB card, I only got 22 minutes. That's a problem when you only have two cards. So, I plugged the laptop into my AC power inverter in the car and started copying the card to an external HDD. Took some 13 minutes. Turns out 135 minutes is the playback time, in slow motion. Anyways, lessons learned. Ordered two more cards, the NEXTO NSB 25 and ten 1TB WD Red bare HDDs. Should arrive within a couple of days. Hopefully this problem will be solved.

I didn't like the laptop solution; using it in my car with adapters plugged into it. Just seemed too fragile. It's great if I'm in a hotel. With only 22 minutes recording time per card, I think the NEXTO is better than investing in a bunch more cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159870-REG/nexto_di_nsb_25_xqd_storage_bridge_nsb_25_modular.html

Mark

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

See, that's what I'm talking about where sometimes a laptop isn't the best for field copying. If you bump the USB cable just the slightest, your footage copy can go south. I'm glad you went the Nexto route. If you use a SWIT battery or V-mount batteries, you can power the Nexto with a D-tap.

Re: FS5 - Cut/Paste Clips from One Card to Another
 

LOL, don't make it sound like you've seen the dinosaurs walk the earth. ;-)
It's not that long ago. (Or am I in denial of my age? ;-) )
It is not about generations, it about adapting to the new situation. Noa got the FS5, FS5 uses relatively cheap SD cards. So his proposed workflow works in that situation. And you argue it can't while you secretly swapped the FS5 for the FS7.
While other think you are also talking about bananas, you already are discussing oranges without saying so.

That is your believe system.
Some people say life is a mirror and it will show you what you believe.
In my situation what you say is certainly not true: I get paid fairly and I hardly have any time to do everything. (At the moment 3 training videos, 2 corporate interviews and a short promo in post, a crowdfunding video campain in preproduction.)

Relax, Jack. We got the point you are trying to make.
Go do yoga. I always helps me to relax, focus and let go of tension, anger and negative believes.
As soon as you believe you are not supposed to be underpaid, you will find yourself in a situation you will negotiate better.

Use your strong points: go make something incredible that will help sell your skills.
Negotiating is easier when the prospects has seen something they really want.

PS.
Yeah sometimes features disappear while we liked them... c'est la vie.
It's ok to let the manufacturer know you miss it, but there is no need for so much emotions.