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#31 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,220
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
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An advantage of shooting at 60 with 1/60 shutter ( or 50 at 1/50 ) is that on a 60P ( 50P ) timeline the video will be smooth motion of video and on a 30P ( 25P ) timeline will be just the same as if it was shot at 30P ( 25P ). At least that is what happens in EDIUS. Arguments may change for an iFrame encode but the FS5 is all LongGOP just like the X70 for example and closer to the consumer XAVC-S format but in a MXF wrapper. Ron Evans |
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#32 |
Trustee
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1,553
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Nigel if you have the time could you possibly run a 200fps clip through MediaInfo and see what it says? Just go to View and select Text and you will have the entire clip structure in front of you
https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo Only if you have the time as I'm curious. I just checked the 700 again plus checked the footage on the timeline. The camera is definitely scanning at 200fps but it buffers it out and records it as 25p. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney |
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#33 | |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cyprus
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
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can I have a link for your vimeo ? |
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#34 | |
Major Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
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#35 |
Trustee
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney Australia
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Thanks for that Nigel. Just confirms my belief that the the overcrank settings although having the same fps available in the FS700 and FS5 are quite different as MediaInfo definitely states 25p for the 700 when running a 200fps.
Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney |
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#36 |
Trustee
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Byron Bay, Australia
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
The FS700 can record slow motion as either 25p or 50p (in PAL mode) - it is a menu setting.
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#37 |
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Location: Sydney Australia
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
John - Really? I missed that one. Please shine the light for me and show me the error of my ways :)
Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney |
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#38 |
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Got me hunting John.
Sorted it. So long since I've used the slo-mo I couldn't even remember where the menus was. Had to go back to the manual... when all else fails... page 52. I see now. If you set it to 25p in the Super Slow Motion menu at 200fps you actually get 12.5% slow and if you set it to 50p you actually get 25% slow motion. So it all depends just how slow you want it I guess. This camera was set to 25p so that's what threw me. Thanks for pointing that out. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney. |
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#39 |
Major Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Just thought I'd update folks over this. I wrote to Sony Prime Support and asked if the quality of 50P 50Mbps was degraded over 25P at 50Mbps in XAVC HD. I used the logic expressed further back in this thread, ie with a cap of 50Mbps and twice as many frames, 50P should have half the quailty compared to 25P which is getting the full 50Mbps. This is how Sony responded:
"That way of explaining would be correct in an Intra codec. However, since you record in XAVC Long GOP, there is no such "double quality" in a 25p frame compared to a 50p frame" I'm afraid that's all I got back and I'm not technical enough to know why this is true. Anyone else?
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#40 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
So no quality loss at all in (XAVC Long GOP) 50P compared to 25p? In that case I always would shoot in 50P.
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#41 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Quote:
Like Noa, I would always record 50P ( or 60P in my case ) since you can always get the slow frame rate cadence back if that is what you want, in editing. Ron Evans |
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#42 |
Major Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Thanks Ron, that's useful. So is there any visual difference (after export) of turning 50P into 25P? I assume it just throws away every other frame.
But something I have been wondering about shooting in 50P, is what about the principle of doubling the shutter speed? Shooting at 1/100 will obviously need more light? Or is it not noticable shooting at 1/50 and then converting down to 25P?
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#43 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arcata, Ca
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Yes you will lose some light shooting at the proper shutter speed for 50p. So I still say, if you're not going to go to slow motion in post, use the frame-rate of the project you're editing in.
I still don't get how, even in long gop, you're using the same amount of data per frame at 50p vs 25p. When a codec says 50mbps, is that what it's at, or is it "up to" that in the case of long gop?
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#44 |
Vortex Media
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,438
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
Here's an analogy. It's not perfect, but it sort of explains it.
Suppose you had to type 25 pages per second with a typewriter. Every page stands alone and has to be typed from top to bottom from scratch. Now suppose you only have to type 10 pages from scratch per second, and you can copy and paste another 40 pages with only a sentence or two of changes on each one. In the first scenario you are working very hard to create 25 pages, but in the second example, your output is 50 pages but the effort is actually the same. That is the root difference between XAVC-I and XAVC-L even if the numbers in my analogy aren't quite accurate.
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#45 |
Major Player
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arcata, Ca
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Re: FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?
I understand how Long GOP works (sort of) I just don't get how twice as many frames (or changes between frames) within 50mbps can have the same quality. Unless when shooting 25p you're not actually using the full 50mbps.
Anyway, if every frame of 60p footage in XAVC-L is as good of quality as a frame from 30p, that's good enough for me. Glad to know. I still won't just be shooting 60p all the time.
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