FS5 - R U shooting 25/30p or 50/60p?

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Chad Johnson

only the image quality takes a hit.

I edit in a 25p timeline, I"m also sure you cannot take out any shot out of my video that looks lower res because it's a 50fps to 25fps conversion, just like you cannot separate 25fps from 50fps.

My point is that shooting 50fps only has advantages once you deal with it in post, you can slow your footage down, you have much less judder while panning and you mix it with 25fps footage and no-one can tell the difference.

I"m sure if I pixel peep I can see differences, I"m not arguing that, but I see no reason not to shoot in 50P.

[Chad Johnson]

Another thing to note:

Vimeo does not play back videos at 60p or 50p. Vimeo is caped at 30p max. So if you upload a video at 50p, Vimeo throws away every other frame. So it's as if you shot at 25 or 30p, only your video takes a noise hit. In your wedding video I see noise in the shadows. If you shoot at 25p (and the proper shutter speed of 50) you are allowing more light to come into the camera, which means you can use less gain/iso and achieve the same exposure. Less gain means less noise, which usually shows in shadow areas. So the only reason to shoot at 50 or 60p is if you plan on slowing down the footage, like when the bride throws the bouquet. If you are editing at 25p, and do not plan on slowing down any footage, there is absolutely no benefit to shooting at 50 or 60p. I would shoot the ceremony at 25p (in my case 30p) and maybe the bouquet toss at 60p.

Try putting your camera up on a tripod in a low light situation, aiming at a wall with varying light levels. Shoot at 60p or 50p (with the appropriate shutter of 100 - 120) with a gain that that looks to be the right brightness. Now don't move the camera and shoot the wall again at 25p with a shutter of 50. Your wall is now over exposed, so turn your gain/iso down to get to the appropriate exposure level. Shoot a sample of that. Put both shots on a 25p timeline and look at the shadow areas at full screen. You undoubtedly see less noise in the footage shot at 50p.

[Noa Put]

only your video takes a noise hit.

I export my videos in 25p as well to vimeo and the noise you see in my videos on vimeo are there in the native files, it's because I"m not shooting with a c100 or a7sII. :)

If you shoot at 25p (and the proper shutter speed of 50

I shoot at 50fps at 1/50 shutter so the same amount of light comes in but with extra benefits, there is no light loss in this case and again, show me one shot in above video where shooting at 50fps and 1/50shutter would somehow be worse then 25fps and 1/50shutter because there are plenty of shots like that.

I would shoot the ceremony at 25p (in my case 30p) and maybe the bouquet toss at 60p.

I never change framerates on the same camera at a wedding unless I absolutely have to, it only makes my job more difficult for no reason or benefit. If I would forget to change the framerate I might regret it later on if I want to slow footage down and it was shot at 25fps.

[Noa Put]

I am not saying you are wrong, you are not, but all I am saying is that for me rules are there to be broken as long as it doesn't influence the end result in a way that a client might complain about it, it would take a trained eye and some pixelpeeping to see a difference from my way or the right way of working. I only see benefits by working the way I do and shooting in 50fps is one of them.

[Chad Johnson]

Maybe the OP Nigel Davey will absorb some of this knowledge and use it to get higher quality video out of his FS5.

[Nigel Davey]

Thanks Chad, I am indeed absorbing both arguments.

I also did some reading around this topic in other archive threads. For example whether the difference (in terms of data/information based on movement in the frame) between 50 fps is significantly less than that at 25 fps (where more movement has occurred)... and how this effects the compression/equation.

Quite honestly I'm not enough of an engineer to know the answer....even if I mostly understand the arguments.

So re 25p vs 50p I think I'll need to try some controlled filming using both options as well as a couple of real world projects and then compare the final output. My wife and son are very attuned to all things video, so I'll also get their input once I've completed this.

But of course the other key factor is how much extra work either version adds or removes in Post, particularly with grading. Again such tests will hopefully give me an answer.

[Chad Johnson]

There is no increased workflow in post to deal with 25 or 50p, unless you have a very very old computer.

[Nigel Davey]

An interesting variation on this theme is what's better for super slow motion? Obviously setting it to 60p over 30p and using the same fps setting will mean the playback is twice as quick. But is 60p the smoother and thus better overall option iro slow motion? Obviously the 'cinematic' look shouldn't be a factor here.

240fps at 60p would give you the same playback speed as 120fps at 30p. So provided you don't need anything below 25% slow motion (ie anything above 240fps incurs a lose of quality), then I assume 60p is the better way to go?

But you know what they say about 'assume'...

[Glen Vandermolen]

24P, 30P and 60i. The client dictates the frame rate.

[Nigel Davey]

Hmm, most of my clients wouldn't even know there was a frame rate.... they just want a video.

Must lure in more technical clients in the future;-)

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Nigel Davey

240fps at 60p would give you the same playback speed as 120fps at 30p. So provided you don't need anything below 25% slow motion (ie anything above 240fps incurs a lose of quality), then I assume 60p is the better way to go?

But you know what they say about 'assume'...

Assume:) we are talking about 240fps. On the Sony FS700 you can be shooting using 60p as your chosen setting but the minute you switch to 120 or 240fps or higher the camera defaults to 24p it will not stay in 60p.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Nigel Davey]

To be honest Chris I'm not 100% sure about 240fps on the FS5 since I shoot in PAL. But since most of the users here (I assume) are Americas based I converted the numbers. But it works re the PAL equivalents on my FS5.

[Christopher Young]

Same here Nigel we shoot in PAL. If I go to Super Slow 200fps the camera reverts from 50p to 25p though. If it doesn't do that on the FS5 then that is a BIG difference between and FS700's slo-mo and the FS5's. Interesting... will need to check this out.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

[Nigel Davey]

Just double checked and on my FS5 it is definitely showing (and I assume recording) 50p at 200fps in XACVHD at 50mbps.

When I get in the office I'll drop a test clip into Premiere and check the camera is not lying.

[Nigel Davey]

Yep, in Premiere it is showing the clip recorded as being 50p (when recorded in camera at 200fps 50p). However keep in mind that it will play back on the timeline twice as fast as if it had been recorded at 200fps in 25p.

Presumably if you only want to slomo something down to 25%, 200fps at 50p is the way to go.