Leigh,
Close, but you got them backwards...

'Missionary' is the "normal" operating position (hence the name) there you shoot in front of you with the rig. (though normally a little to your side, not directly in front where you'll kick the battery)

'Don Juan' (DJ) is the reverse position, this is wher eyou pan the rig 180' from normal so that you are shootign backwards, over/past your shoulder at somethign behind you.

On my website http://mikko.n3.net in the Photo Album i have pics of me operating in the section "Mikko Wilson: Steadicam Operator"
In most of the pictures, including the first one, i'm in the Missionary position.
But there's also a picture "don_juan_low-mode" which shows the DJ position - though in this case, also in low mode so i'm shooting past my ancle, not my shoulder.

The shot wher eyou circle aroudn a subject (shooting off to the side, not forward or back) is half way between the two.

So the positions refer teh othe placement of the camera, not yoru direction of movement. Shooting DJ and walking forwards i teh same as shooting Missionary and walking backwards.
(just as you *could* shoot DJ and walk backwards to achive a forwards shot.. though i don't know why you would...)

- Mikko.

Matthew:

I'm not sure who has Flyers for rent in the LA area, but you can go to the Tiffen facility in Burbank and test-fly one there, I believe. The number is 818 843 4600, ask for Frank Rush.

Thanks for the explanation Mikko. Cool Website. From what I've read, you are really impressed with the flyer also.

Thanks for the info Charles, I think I'll try to get over to Tiffen and try one out.

much appreciated

Hey all, I heard from John at Animagique this morning. He just got back from NAB last night so I appreciated the quick response. He saw the video of the gimbal problem I am having and said that something was definitely wrong, it should not be that way. He asked me to send the gimbal back to him and he would get it fixed ASAP. Everything sounded very positive and hopefully will get worked out quickly. If it does, I suspect that the rig will be a good investment.

Here's a little sample of some stuff I shot for a friend yesterday (sorry it's so big (24Mb, I'm having a little trouble getting smaller file sizes). This was just for fun and there's plenty of operator error, but, for less than 3 weeks of flying and the mechanical trouble I've had, I see that there is potential for it being quite useful.

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...all-sample.mov

I would have to say that if John comes through, I think Kevin may still have made the right choice.

Ed, I will let you know how this gets resolved. I think that if yours is the same as mine, John will fix it. I'm sure it will fix your balancing problems. One thing I have learned quickly is that the better it's balanced, the easier it is it to fly.

hi matthew,
certainly is good news. appreciate if you could update us with the out come. thanks again.

ed

Hey Matthew,

Yes indeed it is good news and I do appreciate your keeping us in the loop. Although I’ve never spoken to John personally, I have had a nice conversation with his wife. From all the comments I read about them, most are very positive and they sound like great people to work with. I know all to well how difficult running a cottage industry can be. Particularly the after sale customer service end of the stick. It can be so time consuming that it makes moving the business forward difficult to impossible. So I applaud Animagique for sticking by their product and supporting post sales in a timely way. It also sounds like this problem is isolated somewhat and perhaps not chiastic of all their new gimbals.

Your new sample footage is a vast improvement! You were able to track 180 degrees around a subject while maintaining a level horizon. IMHO very well done for just a few hours on the stick! Clearly you have spent due diligence in balancing your rig and been practicing not over controlling it. Looks like your shadow made a few cameos as well. LOL. OK, now you need to flip over to low mode and track real tight so we can see the dirt flying off the girls feet in slowmo as they run base lines! Somebody cue up the Chariots of Fire music! ;)

Seriously though, just out of curiosity what lens were you flying on your XL2 for those shots? Was it the Canon 3X or something else?

Yeah the footage looks good Matthew!
I ordered the Magiqcam so I was worried for a sec there, but it looks good and that is with the busted gimbal and couple hours of practice. Good job!

-Gev

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I was using the 20X lens. I tried tighter shots with it but it's going to take a lot more practice. It was a little windy out there as well and the rig would blow around a bit. I realized right away that inital balance is so important, and it's not real easy to fine tune with the sliding plate and paltform that most of these priced rigs have. You guys might want to check out the Bogen 3419 Micrometric sliding plates. I bought to of them from Adorama for $80 each and they really make balancing far more easy. They have mounting plate which can be adjusted with screw thread for fine tuning. Two of them can fasten together at 90 degrees to give you fore-aft and side to side control. I just replaced the Bogen quick release that came on the Magiqcam with these and "voila," fine balance adjustment. I told John about them. Maybe he will incorporate something like that in the future.

What's cool too is that they allow you to make adjustments on the fly. Like the stuff I posted. My LCD monitor battery died within 10 minutes of my starting to shoot. Of course I was too stupid to have brought a spare, so I had to pop open the color VF on the XL2 and use that. Not to good, but it was better than nothing. Anyway, popping the VF up changed the balance completely; however, I was quickly able to compensate for it with the 3419's. I'd say they're more than worth $160.

here also po-ing problem ?
 

Hi there Mathew,
It's Erik from the Netherlands. I have the same problems that you have experienced consider the so called po-ing problem.

I useing the Rig since august 2004 and started with a JVC GY-DV500 camera on top and below the monitor + the marshall battery and a np1 battery on top of the marshall bat to get it balanced ok.
As far as I know, (forgot to keep this tape footage), i did not have any problem with po-ing during walking. In fact it looked damn good that time.. only had to pull both springs to the maxium to get the load right.

Now i have dropped down from the JVC camera and bought a Panasonic AG-DVX100 camera. Ofcourse this camera weight is a lot less and so i have put a Glidecam lcd4 monitor on the bottom of the sled and use a small battery to power this. (weights only 50 grams or so).
At the battery place i have a only a np1 holder complete with a dead np1 battery to get the static balance.
I have read many many entries of Charles P and Charles K which both mention to put more mass on the sled, i think in mine case more mass at the top of the sled like a steel plate of 5.6 lbs or something like that.

At the moment i don't have the plate yet, so no good drop time for me. Simply because the bottom of the sled is more havier then the top.

I have just useing the rig (total of 10 hours of practice orso) to shoot some memorial footage (2e worldwar 1940 - 1945) in the Netherlands.
I notice the po-ing effect just as you described.

Looking at your latest footage, your po-ing seems to be gone ?
What was for you the solution to avoid this problem ?

Charles, if i put more mass like a steel plate under the camera and on top of the sled + pulling the springs down so that both sections of the arm will be like horizontal or maybe below that.. will this avoid mentioned problem ?

I have uploaded 2 files which shows the same problem with the so called po-ing :

- Here i walk down 5 steps of stairs and turn arround the memorial :

http://home.hccnet.nl/ebrul/goeasy/bigmemorial.mov


- Here i walk along my wife.. here you see the po-ing much less because the girl (LOL) keeps your attention so you don't pay attention to the rest of the frame ?

http://home.hccnet.nl/ebrul/goeasy/gabriellawalking.mov

PLS also notice the sounds of the arm.. I already mentioned this a while ago and John advised me to use some houseoil for the joints... (what is houseoil ?)
Is it the same oil you use for your sewingmachine to make some new clothes ?

Also sorry for the big files,

Hope to hear from you all....

A newbie from Holland, rgds, Erik

Erik:

The video looks good, I don't see any evidence of pogo-ing, the term I use to refer to bouncing as a result of footsteps showing up through the system. The main thing I think you should focus on is your horizons, which are tend ing to exhibit a slow roll from one side to the other; this is an operating condition which is very common. Are you using a fluid level on your rig? If not, try mounting one on the monitor (true it to the camera by placing another at the camera stage and making sure both agree. Try walking straight towards a subject without your operating hand on the post, and watch the bubble closely. Now repeat with the hand restored to the post. Is the bubble exhibiting more activity with your hand in place? If so, you are over-controlling the rig (trying to make it go level rather than letting it do it's thing), so try to pay attention to what is going on there and focus your attention to getting rock-solid horizons.

Hi Erik Brul,

You need to train like this. 8 )

Regards
Leigh

Hi Charles and Leigh,

Thanks for both replies.. I thought the pogo-ing effect was show during the walk down and by the war - monument.. To me it seems the same little bounce (seeing the footsteps) like Matthew described.
I have another video which shows a walk move arround a grave stone (sort of speak) which indicates the pogo-ing effect much more. I really see here the footsteps so pls take a look at this video (sorry 20mb file)
I don't have enough webserver space so i will replace the 2 files with this particular file.

I know that some things like horizontal level etc is due operator error. But hey, only a few hours of real practice to far. Good idea about a fluid level .. I will look for this..

The file :

http://home.hccnet.nl/ebrul/goeasy/w...ndmemorial.mov

thanx, Erik

Leigh,
That's hilarious! Thanks for sharing.

Hey Eric,
Your first two clips looked pretty good. Your third clip showed it. For me, the effect is worse the closer objects are to the lens and the slower I move, which makes sense geometrcially, but I'd really like to find a way to reduce it as much as possible, besides just going wide angle all the time. I think you are probably right about the greater sled weight being better, and of course, practice. BTW, how is your gimbal? Is it tight on the post at the top?

As far as oiling the rig, I asked John about this and he said just put some 3-in-1 type oil or lubricant (household oil) on the arm joints where the teflon washers are once in a while. I tried it today but it did'nt help my bouncing too much.

Hi Matthew,
Thanks.. your latest video was also good looking and very nice level !

Hope btw that Charles also looks at mine latest update and see the bouncing..
On the steadicamforum they mentioned some plates to put extra weight on the sled.. i have already emailed mike if he has a plate left for me.

Now maybe a stupid question :

Can anyone who's living in the USA (like you for example Matthew) post me a picture of this socalled household oil and also the store where you can buy it ?
This because i'm in the USA (Florida) from 29th april till 15 may and want to buy this oil myself to solve this sounds from the arm.

Matthew, are you useing this oil just to solve the bouncing problem or do you have the same 'sound' problems from the arm ?

Regards, Erik

Erik,

"3-in-1" is a brand name for a lightweight machine oil sold here in the U.S. I am sure you have some equivalent oil sold under a different name. This oil is clear, has low viscosity, and is commonly used to oil sewing machines, typewriters, tools, and other such items.

Hope this helps,

-gb-

thanks Greg.. rest me to ask the final question :

Which store sells this oil ? Hopefully a store which is also available in Orlando and surrounding places...

Erik

3-in-1 is a common product found in probably any hardware store in the U.S.

That last video did demonstrate more of the effect, yes. But it does look good, especially for only a few hours of practice! Keep it up, Erik!

As far as this issue goes overall, the best you can hope to do is minimize this effect. The design of the Magiqcam arm is a simple one which keeps the cost down, but is going to be more springy than a Flyer arm (for instance), which will results in the footsteps showing up. A good firm grip on the vertical travel (via the hand on the gimbal, not on the post) will help a bit; walking as lightly as possible as if shooting handheld will also help. Detune the springs slightly so that you are having to partially hold the camera up to the desired height.

Hi Charles P,
Can you explain more on how the our hand holding the gimbal could help in reducing the pogoing effect? Also, by detuning the spring, i find holding the camera up to the desire height is very difficult with a 6kg setup - well still no where near what you operate. can we set the sled higher just to compensite this?

ed

Ed:

The idea is that you are dampening the springiness of the rig's arm by absorbing some of the bounce with your own arm.

You only need to detune a little, so that the arm hangs perhaps one-third or halfway down. You will only be holding part of the weight up with your hands. Certainly it is more tiring, but for critical shots where the pogoing effect may be a real killer, it's a useful trick. My first feature was with an Arri BL4 camera, a real bruiser--it overloaded my 3A arm and I spent six weeks having to hold it up through long takes. I think the rig weighed close to 80 lbs, yuck.

hi Charles P,
and i'm complaining so much with a 6kg camera. anyway, would it help if we change the springs in the arm?

ed

Ed:

It really has to do with the design of the arm. A non-linear arm such as the Magiqcam, Glidecam etc. will not dampen the effects of vertical travel nearly as well as a linear arm. The heavier the load, the less critical this distinction becomes as the factor of inertia becomes more prevalent (which is why the rig always becomes more stable with more weight onboard). The only reason I can see to change springs would be if your desired payload was too light for the current spring configuration, and adding more weight was out of the question.

Charles thanks for your kind words !!!

Rgds, Erik

Hi Charles,
I undrestand what you mean about the arms, but I'm still not sure I understand what makes one non-linear vs. linear. Any further explanation would be greatly appreciated.


Hi Erik,
I haven't had any noise coming from the arm except one time at the elbow. I put a coiuple drops of oil on it and it went away. I lubed the arm joints with a teflon-based product I got from the local hardware store. Here's a picture:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...-flow-lube.jpg

3-in-1 il comes in differnt packages but looks like this:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/3-in-1-oil.jpg


As far as putting more weight on, I swapped out the Bogen quick release for a couple of Bogen 3419 micrometric sliding plates. These are meant for macro focusing on stills but work great for the Magiqcam because they allow fine adjustment for balancing quickly. They also add about 1 kg to the top. I drilled two holes in the stock aluminum mounting plate that was normally used for the horizontal adjustment and attached the bottom sliding plate with two screws. If you wanted more weight, all you have to do is replace the aluminum piece with a steel plate of desired thickness and drill two holes in it to fasten it to the top of the sled. If you use the micrometric sliding plates, you can just bolt the steel plate down tot he top of the sled and not worry about needing to adjust it, since the sliding plates will gove you all the adjustment you need. Here's a couple pictures of my setup:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...ng-plate-1.jpg

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...ng-plate-2.jpg

The black knurled knob gives fine adjustment. The brass knob locks the plate. There is also a lever release that allows quick movement. I'm going to try and load mine up with some more weight and see if that helps the bouncing at all.

Regards,
Matthew

i've read from hbs and steadicam forum that there are pro and con to too much oiling on the rig. the good thing is it reduce friction thus less noise and so on. the not so good thing is, oil collect dust. and to my experience, in hot weather, the oil might even leak.

heavier lot does help but with my 6kg setup, i still experience the pogoing effect. simply said, its my fault.

hi matthew,
any word from john?

ed

Hi All,
I have good news. I Fedexed my gimbal back to Magiqcam on Monday to get repaired and I just got it back today, which is really great because I've got my first real shoot with it Saturday. Bottom line, problem solved! I was able to balance the sled very well in less than 5 minutes. Took it for a quick test drive and it feels much better. Stays balanced much better and I can slide the gimbal on the post and it stays pretty much in balance (something it wouldn't do before). I will have to test it more this evening, but I am quite happy at this point. Kudos to John for the great service and quick turnaround. Thanks to you all for helping me as well.


Ed, if your gimbal has the same sizing problems mine did, I would encourage you to CALL John at the number on their website. He really took care of me and I'm sure replacing the gimbal tube will solve your balancing problems and make flying much easier.

Matthew, I'm happy for you but the really issue in Ed's situation is that he lives outside the US and that takes time and money sending back the rig and waiting for it to be returned. As Ed stated before, the frieght alone is a put off. You got yours quick because you live in the states. Ed lives in Malaysia.

Hi Matthew,

Glad that you solve your problem. Can you check if you still has footstep problem shown in your video?

Regards
Leigh

hi matthew,
certainly is good to know that everything work out. i have send john an email with two video files attached showing my problem gimbal. will update you guys with the outcome.

hi charles k,
as for the shipping expenses, guess its just my luck. only wish to have a working rig. i'm still going ahead with the plan to made a new gimbal with the help of a friend here and you folks at hbs. thanks charles k.

ed

No problem Ed. Just concerrn about your issue. I hate things like that. Keep us updated.

will do charles k and thank you again :o)

ed

Leigh,
Though the gimbal is fixed and the rig operates much better now. I'm afraid that the footsteps issue is still there. I don't know whether or not practice will improve this but it seems that, as Chrles P. pointed out, this is probably an inherent design issue in lesser expensive rigs, though I would love to hear from someone regarding how this can be dealt with by design. Now that the new HBS site is up I think I'll try and pick their collective brains and see what, if anything, can be done. I must say though, that for the money, the Magiqcam still rocks. Except for slow moving closeup foreground moves, it appears very useful and well worth the relatively small investment. I'm sure that practice will only make it better also.

BTW, how does your arm deal with the footstep bounce? Does it eliminate it?

Hi Matthew,

I did not have an opportunity to try any other stablizer, so I can't say anything about that. CP is an expert user on this, so I guess he is right.

I did not feel the footstep bounce in my video, maybe I do not have the experience to tell. Maybe you can help me to check if I have that problem too in the following video I shot yesterday using JVC GY-DV5000 with Fujinon S20x6.4BRM-SD lense. Sorry for the big file size.

wmv format
file size around 92mb

http://www.salenz.com/movie/2005_5_1.wmv

I just follow this video to train myself everyday. 8 ) I spent an hour a day to practise as I have a daytime job as a programmer and I do not have lots of time to practise.

I follow the advice CP gave me to slightly touch the post and the handle for both hands. It works great. ;-)

Regards
Leigh

Leigh... once again.. file size!

92megs is way too big, even for a Broadband connection.
even with a 1mbps connection (not all that comon) running at full speed that would take over 12mintues to download.

how long is the video? get it below 20 megs...

- Mikko

hi matthew,
any chance of seeing some photo of the fixed gimbal?

hi leigh,
which stabilizer are you using?

ed

Hi ed,

Thank you for asking.

I manufacture stablizer myself and hope to release it soon.

Regards
Leigh

Leigh:

Just to clarify, you don't need to go light with your gimbal handle (non-post) hand--that can be a firm grip. Definitely light with the post hand is the way to go, though!

Hi Charles Papert,

Thanks for clarification

Regards
Leigh

Took a look at your latest video--I do agree, Leigh, you need to make these files smaller! Perhaps just some representative footage rather than something of that length.

Your basic operation has come up by leaps and bounds, it's looking very good. There is an odd section in the middle where you are rotating around some shrubs in between the buildings; your horizon went all screwy. I think it would be a good plan for you to start working in compound moves, i.e. be tilted up or down for sections of the shot, make diagonal pans etc. as this gets a lot harder to maintain horizon. Also, walking forwards is easy--do your entire course walking backwards (remember as I said, most Steadicam shots are pulls, not pushes). And make those holds more deliberate, hold them longer.

A subtlety of taking corners: make your pivot before the corner, meaning you start your pan earlier, keeping the corner of the building in the frame rather than losing it. This feels much more natural and gives a better sense of space. Watch just about any Steadicam shot in a movie, you'll see this being done every time.

Hi Charles Papert,

Thank you for your time to watching my video and helping me.

I think that I made two mistakes in that video.

1. I have not walked all the route first before I shot. So I have no idea about what to shoot and just shot what I saw.

2 I only trained myself about walk forward and just recent week start to train myself walk backward. So I have no experience about shooting something in circle.

It seems that so many things to learn and so little time and slow progress achived.

I will make a short video next time. 8 )

Regards
Leigh

any photos of your rig?

ed