Newbie needs Stabilizer help!
 

Hi all,
I just received a Magiqcam IIa about two weeks ago and have been starting to get my feet wet with the unit. In the short time I’ve been able to play with it, it has become clear that everything I’ve read about practice and sticking with it is true. I’ve been reading a lot of the posts and discussions about stabilizers here and looking at demo’s and such and I can now really appreciate the skill that’s required. I even got my wife to watch ER so she can see what really good Steadicam work is like. Now whatever we watch, she’s asking me, is that one? What’s that? How did they do that? Can’t watch anything the same anymore.

I also really appreciate the fact that so many of you are willing to spend your valuable time sharing and helping one another. I’ve gathered a lot of helpful info on stabilizers as wellas other topics from reading the discussions here. It’s really helped me to get a handle on some basic issues like getting my system rigged together so that it’s got pretty good static and dynamic balance. So now I was hoping (read that "begging") that some of you may be able to help me with some tips on actually flying the rig.

Since I got the dynamic balance working okay (though not as good as I think it should be) I think I’m getting a little better feel for it, but the one thing that is driving me crazy right now is that I’m getting a lot of “pogo-ing” up and down. I read some discussions where Charles Papert said that this was most likely operator error, but could also be due to friction in the arm. Can anyone shed some more light on this? Is there a specific technique that will help reduce or eliminate footsteps? I know practice is what is really needed, but I sort of feel like I’m in the dark as to what the proper technique I should be practicing is. I would love to find a workshop, but a recent one in my area got cancelled.

I do sort of suspect that friction may also be a part of it, since the pogo-ing seems to have gotten worse since I received the unit. What part of the arm would this be coming from? The manual for the Magiqcam says to lube it, but it does not tell you where or with what. I’ve got an email in to John about this. I also noticed some shake and jittering when running that didn’t seem to be there a week ago. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I’m flying an XL2 with several configurations. Mostly with a matte box and wireless, though with different lenses. I’ve tried different drop times. 2 to 2-1/2 seconds seems to work best for me right now. I’ve tried various settings for the arm springs and while it can make a difference to the overall feel, it doesn’t seem to make much difference to the pogo-ing effect.

Is Charles Papert’s training DVD available yet?

Thanks all,
Matt

Hi Matt,

Can you post a demo video on internet to see what your problem is?

Regards
Leigh

Thanks Leigh - here are a couple short examples. They are short, but I think you can see what I'm talking about. The bouncing as was said before is most likely user error. Maybe I need to learn to walk again. Thanks for taking a look.

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...ing-test-1.mov

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-vid...ds-w-shake.mov

Matt:

The first video looked quite good (in fact, very good, for 2 weeks into your stabilizer career!) The pogoing I'm seeing, which is slight, is probably a combination of the arm and what you are doing with it. I would recommend "de-tuning" your arm (let some of the spring force out of it) so that both sections tend to hang a bit below horizontal, so you have to hold it up a little with your arms. Understand that the design of the Magiqcam arm is not the same as a "pro" rig, which it isn't going to be for the money, and so it will present a bit more bounce. Detuning will help with this. A smoother step, a la the "handheld shuffle" will help also. A bit more force with the hand that is resting on the gimbal handle (not the post) to maintain the height of the system is another way through this.

The second video is more troubling. You are experiencing vibration in your rig somewhere. Lift the rig off the dock without vest and arm, and give it a little shake. See if you can isolate which component is exhibiting a bit of play. Could be in the camera mounting; make sure it is tight to the top stage; if you see it lifting off the top slightly, stick a wedge or two in there to shim it up to remove the play. Make sure all of the lockable parts in the sled are good and tight.

Haven't made the video yet, but I'm hoping in the next few months...stay tuned.

Thank you Charles for the quick reply. I'll try your suggestions and see if that improves the bouncing at all. It's not so bad when objects are not very close to the lens, but I've got some tight interior stuff I need to do in the near future and that could be a problem.

What is the major difference in arms between the lower end systems and the more pro rigs? Is there a major design difference or is it components and tolerances etc.? I had seen you mention non-linear versus linear designs, but I haven't found the explanation of what the differences are?

As far as the vibration goes, I think I've located the source. Unforntunately, it does not look good. The i.d. of the gimbal bearing post appears to be aorund 10 mils larger than the o.d. of the sled post. The gimbal fastens to the post on the lower end via a friction clamp. When the clamp is tightened, there is still play between the horizontal gimbal bearing and the sled post at the top of the gimbal. I think this is also why I'm not able to get the dynamic balance setup as good as it should be. When the gimbal clamp is tight, it causes the post to sit slightly offset where it meets the horizontal bearing. Anyway, a picture is worth a million words here. Maybe you could take a look at this and tell me what you think?


http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/gimbal-play.mov

Anyone else with a Magiqcam see this problem? Is this how they are all made?

I tried placing a piece of aluminum tape on the post as a shim. It actually takes up about 80 percent of the play; however, I now can't seem to get it into dynamic balance again. Kind of frustrating. Any suggestions?

Much appreciated,
Matt

Matt, I'm sorry to hear. Judging by that small clip of your gimbal, i'll say you have a problem! Yep, sorry to say but that gimbal, AKA bearing should not have any gap. That will defeat and will definately hamper your operation.

Now that is probably why you are expericing some of your problems. That is no good. It seems John is not being particularly careful on these parts. The gimbal makes up about almost 50% of the stability of the stabilizer, why doesn't he take more care?

Thanks for taking a look Charles. I think you have confirmed my worst fear.
Is there a standard diameter for the post or gimbal tube? I've seen 1.5 inches somewhere, but obviously there has to be a a small difference in the two parts so that they can slide together, but I would think 1 to 2 mils would be more appropriate. Is that how other units are made?

...it will depend on the inner diameter of the actual gimbal being used. Are you planning on exchanging it for a new one or rebuilding the post? I suggest sending it back but judging by what I've been reading about the bad rep others have been having I would be very hesitate. I know one person who has been having bad luck is Ed. I think you've read his thread. Any way, What are you willing to do? first question?

I watched the gimbal video too. I agree with Charles King that bearing should not have any gap. I think that you better return back to the seller at least that you have one year warranty.

Regards
Leigh

I've sent John an email regarding the issue and called over there but apparently he's at NAB, so I suspect I won't be hearing back from him too quickly. I think I read in someone's post that they are displaying a "new" Magiqcam model. Maybe it's got a correctly sized gimbal and post. I did read about all Ed's problems, but I kind of got the impression that some of it was resolved. Funny thing is, I have not seen any other comments with regard to this particular problem, which sort of makes me think that I might have got a "special" one, except that the two mating surfaces appear to be manufactured to that size and not machined by John, so I would think that all of his rigs would be that way. The unit is supposed to have a two year warranty, so I definitely want to get this problem resolved with the manufacturer.

As far as what I'm willing to do, well, so far I shimmed it with some aluminum tape and I'll see if that helps stop the shaking, but now I'm having trouble getting the thing into dynamic balance. I can get it in static balance easily, but if I rotate it 180 degrees, it drops out of balance. Seems that maybe the gimbal bearing is not truely aligned. In fact, I'm wondering if it wasn't aligned in combination with the tilt induced by the gap so that it can't be aligned when the tilt is removed! Besides Advil, any suggestions on dealing with this?

As always, comments and suggestions are much appreciated.

after reading your post, i checked my gimbal and it has the same problem. let me know if you have any luck getting john to reply. i'm not getting any.

i'm having the same pogoing effect flying the rig. have tried all the different setting but still have the problem. since i can't get it right, i concluded it must be my fault.

ed

Hi ed,

I think there is no way that you can train yourself to overcome this gap problem while you are operating your stablizer. The only way to solve it is by removing that gap.

Regards
Leigh

Hi Matthew,

The major difference is how much weight the arm can handle. You will see significant price jump above some weight support range of the arm.

Regards
Leigh

Hey Ed,
Are you able to get the rig to balance properly? Try just taking a piece of tape and wrapping the post where the bearing sits. Iv'e used some thin aluminum foil tape and another 1 or 2 mil think plastic tape over that and now it fits pretty snug, but I think that the either the bottom of the gimbal is out of wack or the the bearing is not true, because I can't get a decent dynamic balance and I still get some jitter. The lower the gimbal (the longer the drop time) the worse it gets. Are you saying that John has not answered any of your emails lately?

The bounce is really difficult but I don't think it is related to the gimbal/post problem. I'm not sure how much of it has to do with the arm, but I think a lot of it has to do with my walking. Small shifts in weight and any little elevation change at the hip moves the camera. Maybe I need to try roller skates! Hey, anyone tried that? A human dolley with a stabilizer?

Leigh, I sort of have to believe it's more than just weight. I imagine tolerances and materials play an important role. Don't some of the higher end designs use cables and springs?

Does your rig have a sliding gimbal. Does it sit firm on the post?

thanks for the replies,
Matt

Hi Matthew,

You are right.

Precision engineering work is very important and that cost huge money. And I heard someone said that arm cost half of the package IIRC.

Regards
Leigh

The primary differences between low and high end system would be the design and to some extent the tolerances and materials used. I tried on quite a few rigs at NAB; the cheaper system's arms felt "springy" aka bouncy, and made it very hard to eliminate footsteps/pogoing. The high end arm (well, to me there is only one in this class: the Flyer) eliminates this, due to superior design. The new Tiffen arm that was demonstrated can lift 10 to 40 lbs, and was gorgeous (a whopping 32" boom range, biggest in the industry, and adjustable degree of isoelasticity).

Gents, this bearing play issue is alarming--it's definitely a big problem.
Even play that is essentially invisible to the eye will cause issues. John should correct this immediately.

hi matthew,
not able to do that as the center post on the gimbal seem to have sunken in a little. its totally misalign now. and to make matter worst, not one mail from john after i complaint about the missing thread on the gimbal ring.
as for the arm, i don't think it was design for heavy setup.
frankly, if john were to offer me money back, i would grab it this time round as i think i'm wasting my time with this rig. still i would have to lost the shipping cost which would come up to be us$700+. anyway, hope you'll have better luck with a reply from john as you are in the states.

ed

Hey Ed, sorry to hear all that. He's been selling a bunch of these units and if they are all this way I have to think that everyone is going to be having the same problems. I've written John about the problem. Hopefully he will ansewr when he gets back from NAB. I also see from the HBS forum that you are going to rebuild your gimbal. Hope that works out.

Charles P., do you know of anywhere in the LA area where I could rent a flyer? You've got me real curious now as to how much of a difference there is and how much is operator dependent. I've checked a few of the local rental houses but haven't found anyone with a flyer yet.

regards,
Matt

hi matthew,
just luck i guess. as for the rebuilding a new gimbal, it would have to wait as i just found out its not going to be cheap and the machinist will only work on it during his free time. not going as plan :o(
will wait to hear good news from your correspondance with john.

ed

Hi Charles Papert,

The flyer costs 6k which is around 4 to 6 times the price of panasonic gs400 minidv camera(depends where you buy it). I own a gs400 and I like it. I consider that the technology using inside gs400 will be far superior than flyer. I doubt average joe will make a firm buying decision to do that. Nowdays that cheap means popular, am I right? 8 )

Regards
Leigh

Leigh, if this is the case, then why are you building your own stabilizer (which i *servearly* doubt will be superior to the Flyer)?

- Mikko.

Hi Mikko,

Thanks for the question.

I look forward to offering a product which offers a choice at an inexpensive price to the community with good performance. 8 )

By the way, I checked http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=servearly and can't find the word servearly.

Regards
Leigh

Huh? I'm sorry. Did I miss something? I don't understand the point of comparing a cameras 'technology' to that of a stabilizer rig. That’s like trying to compare your eyeball to your foot.

If I read between the lines I think your point is who in their right mind would spend $7k on a rig just to put a $1,200 camera on it. And that I agree with. Please correct me Leigh if I’m wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with Charles’s thumbnail assessment of the differences between “low” and “high end” rigs. Not to put words in Charles’s mouth but like most things in life… you get what you pay for.

Now as to this Magiqcam issue. I have flown stabilizers on at least 3 - 4 dozen shoots over the years working for production companies in the US. Mostly Pro Vids and V16’s. However now that I’ve had my own business for a hand full of years I have been considering acquiring a stabilizer. Video production is not our primary business but creating digital content is. Much of our work is DVD and/or web based and contains video as well as a host of other things. I have an XL2, a PD150 and a few Sony TRVxxx’s in the arsenal. A few weeks back we picked up a job that required a stabilizer to be employed. I decided it was time to buy and stop spending money on rentals - so I started doing some research. I have read mixed reviews about the Magiqcam but mostly positive ones. I also looked at a V-16 and a Flyer. I heavily considered the amount of use we would be demanding from a rig and how often we would need it. For that very reason alone I decided on a Magiqcam. I ordered it last week. (Gulp!)

Having said that, I now have serious reservations and may consider canceling that order. I understood that Magiqcam was only a small 4-year-old company but I liked the fact that many people had talked directly to the owner and that he was receptive and responsive in providing help and correcting wrongs. Perhaps popularity is changing that situation. I also took note that they were producing a version IIa which tells me they have made advances in their design from the initial model. Apparently just not enough.

I am very interested to see what happens next. I surely hope John gets involved with this thread and provides some insight and a solution to this “big” problem. I truly do not want to cancel my order with them but I must look out for my on interest first and I can’t afford to be spending 2K on a “problem”.

hi mikko,
you should check out some of the video at hbs. i have seen some so well made, even my magiqcam don't come anywhere close to it in term of performance. or it could be just me being bias ;o)

ed

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the post.

I thought it is hard decision for someone just have a $1,200 camera and plan to spend $7k on a rig. And it was hard decision for me around one year ago just have a $8,000 6kg camera and plan to spend $20k on a decent rig.

Regards
Leigh

Hi Liegh,

I agree and understand that thinking totally. If I made my living exclusively as a camera person making that decision would be much easier but still might cause a brain cramp or two. Unfortunately, I have not been able to justify buying a 7k rig (really about 9k in the end) for a 5K camera. Simply because we would not use it that often. My thinking behind getting a Magiqcam was that we spend about 2k a year renting rigs so why not capitalize that money into the business. Of course if our demand goes up I would have no reservations whatsoever investing 7~9k on a Flyer.

If this helps any, consider that support gear like tripods, heads and stabilizers will usually last for multiple generations of cameras. I have always advocated buying the absolute best fluid head that one can afford, as it will have a direct affect on the photography and a quality head will be around for many, many years. Stabilizers are a bit faster moving when it comes to new models, but still, there's no reason that one would not be happy for years down the line.

$6K may seem like an awful lot for a stabilizer for a $1200 camera, sure. But if your business flourished and you found yourself with a $10K HVX200 in a year or two, remember that the same $6K stabilizer will work just as well with this camera.

Thanks Charles, truer words were never spoken. Come to think of it I never had any regrets about dropping 2.5K on my Vinten sticks & head about 7 years ago. - and they have served me very well indeed. Also, as you implied, they are supporting a second generation of cameras for me now.

I’ve already expressed my reservations about having ordered the Magiqcam but I will wait until early next week before making a decision to move forward. John, I believe, is at NAB now and it’s only fair to let him have the opportunity to respond.

Woah hey. i guess my coment was porly worded...
I was mearly comenting that in my oppinion you can't even compare an in-camera steady-shot with a inertial stablizer. The foot and eye example was best. And i think that Leigh understood my response.

And and yeah, i'm also on HBS, in all 3 main categories.

- Mikko.

hi kevin,
thought was the same when i place an order for the magiqcam. but in my case, when my order arrived late, i have to rent a efp setup for two of my project. when the set did arrive, my expectation was, you really get what you pay. the feel were totally not the same. what i'm trying to say is, if you can't afford to buy the best, renting is definately a better option. and with no after sale support, even the best support system will not last, in my case again, after every test with my magiqcam, something bad will pop out. at the moment, i don't think magiqcam is up to par yet with rig like glidecam or even some home made rig. here is a link to a video i saw two week ago just to proof a point - http://www.ninehost.com/steadicam/ with some further improvement, in a year or so, maybe john can really say he has a commercial unit out for sale. not now.

ed

Hi Ed,
I tested out the rig after shimming up the post and it was better. It eliminated about 80 percent of the vibration I was seeing and made balancing the rig easier. It's not perfect and, unforntunately, the lower you place the gimbal on the post, the harder it gets, so the sliding gimbal becomes sort of worthless until that play is taken out.

I bought this for some of the same reasons that Kevin discussed, mainly, I only need it for a portion of a certain project I;m doing and thought it was better to buy than rent because I would need a lot of practice and so renting wasn't practical. I did my research and thought that the Magiqcam was the best choice. Other than your horrible experience, I had only heard pretty good things. I think the analogy of learning an instrument that someone mentioned in another thread is very accurate. A great musician can play a lower quality instrument and still make good music,(they still play great music on am radio) though if the instrument buzzes or won't stay in tune, it will buzz or be out of tune for them too.

So yeah, I do know that you get what you pay for, but I think this gimbal issue is a pretty serious flaw. That being said, I do see the potential in the rig and I can already see some improvement in my technique, (thanks to Charles Papert's Suggestions) giving me hope that if the gimbal problem can be resolved (and I do think it can without great trouble) the Magiqcam will still be a pretty good rig and hopefully help me do what I need it too. But I can see that it takes a lot of practice .

Speaking of which, is it a better technique to walk backward or Don Juan? Or is it just situation dependent? If so, can anyone explain to me the benefits of one versus the other.

Hi Matthew,

I tried both methods and feel quite comfortable to do Don Juan as I can see everything.

For walk backward, I can't get the view of my back, so it is very hard for me to get confidence to walk smoothly which greatly effect the shot.

Regards
Leigh

Hi Leigh,
I sort of feel the same, a little leary of walking backwards. I keep having this vision that I'm going to trip and crash to the ground and watch the camera come crashing down in slo-mo. But I think for the types of shots I need, I am going to have to practice that and get the condfidence. that an dhope tha there is someone there to say "watchout!"

They called it assistant and they are hired to guide you while you walk backward iirc.

Regards
Leigh

Hi ed,

I watched the video http://www.ninehost.com/steadicam/Steadione_5.MOV. It seems shaking, what do you think?

Regards
Leigh

hi leigh,
well, its not perfect but my point is, with my magiqcam i can't get shot like that. i can't shot in a circle around the subject. i just can't get the balance as the gimbal is out of alignment. and its very difficult to notice any pogoing effect from those shot. a little more practice by the operator will definately improve the shot as with all rig. as always, i could be bias.

ed

Hi ed,

I see your point now.

Regards
Leigh

<<Originally Posted by Matthew Wilson

that an dhope tha there is someone there to say "watchout!"




They called it assistant and they are hired to guide you while you walk backward iirc.

Regards
Leigh>>

Not really. No-one is specifically hired to guide the operator, it will always be someone on set; and it is very rarely a camera assistant, more likely the dolly grip or key grip. The usual term is "spotter".

I will usually use a spotter for most backing-up shots, unless there isn't enough room to fit everyone else in there (focus puller, boom guy etc). Without question I will insist on one for running shots or stairs, which present an obvious danger.

I and nearly all of my colleagues prefer to work primarily in Missionary rather than Don Juan. Being able to see the actors and the monitor face-on is a great advantage. I resort to Don Juan when forced to, usually when preceding actors up or down stairs, but I know many operators who will still back up or down stairs (amazingly!) to avoid Don Juan.

Thanks Charles. What exactly do you mean by missionary? Is that a specific configuration of walking backwards? BTW, I don't know if you saw my earlier post, there's been a lot of other chat going on here, but by chance do you have any idea of anyone renting a flyer in the LA area? I saw Charles King's video and was very impressed. I know I have practically no experience flying these things yet, but I'd really like to see how much of a difference the equipment makes in contrast to what skills I lack.

Hi Matthew,

Don Juan and Missionary are the two main positions for the steadicam opterator. Don Juan position allows the operator to walk holding the rig facing in front of him. Missionary position allows the operator to walk forward shooting with the rig facing behind him.

Regards
Leigh