Best Craigslist No Pay Ad Response EVER!
 

For ages there was an ongoing thread about ridiculous Craigslist ads. I think Chris Hurd was tormented by what it was doing to this forum.

Today I saw this post in the Crew section of Craigslist in response to all the posts asking people to work for no pay.

Great Response. Shows you that even "names" are asked to do this and how one "name" responded!

YouTube - Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer

OK, Chris, now you can lock the thread <wink>

Hilarious! I don't know if Chris will lock the thread or not. But it doesn't matter. That'll about cover the writers' opinions; what more need be said?

Fan-friggin-tastic!

I think I'll go to my next freebie job with an eye patch and a tin cup! Gawd that was good.

OMG Brilliant, needed a good laugh and that did it! Thanks for posting that. Im still laughing gonna watch that again.
cheers john

I saw this about a year ago. Makes some very valid points.

-gb-

Brilliant! Now tell me how you really feel Mr. Ellison.

One can't help but wonder how much he got paid for having this interview on YouTube.

:o)

Dude, that is so funny! I was thinking almost the same thing: "I wonder if the guy shooting this video for YouTube is getting paid!"

The clip is from a documentary for sale on DVD (taking pre orders on Amazon).
So either they're either getting paid or getting a percentage.

Amazon.com: Harlan Ellison: Dreams with Sharp Teeth: Harlan Ellison, Robin Williams, Neil Gaiman, Erik Nelson: Movies & TV

I think I just wet myself!!!

"YOU can go to the store and buy it..."

Thanks for sharing, Craig!

Harlan Ellison - yeah, that's my man.

You know the whole story behind "The Terminator" and the old Outer Limits episode it was based on, written by Harlan Ellison? Called - "The Soldier"... great story, google it up.

Ironic, ain't it, that people are re-broadcasting it for free? ;-)


J.

The person who posted the vid on YouTube isn't associated with the DVD or the production company. I'm not reporting the guy, just savouring the irony. ;-)


J.

I always make a point of at least sending myself a DVD whenever I ask myself to write for free.

He actually does link to the production company selling the DVD. Look on the description to the right. He names the movie, that it's a trailer, the director and links to the production company. Unfortunately it's not a hyperlink so one would have to cut and paste.

BTW to the best of my knowledge factualfactory is a stock footage house so they may have provided some of the stock. We don't know that they did not get permission to promote the trailer. It would be more helpful if the link were clickable though so one could buy the DVD and make sure Harlan gets his sixpence.

Fantastic ! I currently work for free. I guess I am stupid.

There is a difference between an inexperienced newbie and an old hand. If you need experience, volunteering is a great way to get some.

All he is saying is, don't expect me to share your enthusiasm for your project. If it IS something I'm interested it, then maybe. If not, I'll expect compensation.

No, you aren't stupid.... you just aren't Harlan Ellison.... yet! :)

Even newbies deserve to get paid an entry level wage.

Being an intern is another story. Most craigslist internships aren't. They're simply looking for experienced people to exploit. Internships are valuable when there's tutelage involved. Experienced people willing to TEACH you. You gain advancing skill-sets instead of money.

My first couple of jobs had interesting pay relationships but I DID GET PAID.
The first was working as a PA. When there were paying clients we got paid. The rest of the time we got to use the gear to produce a public access show.
My second job at a BIG production/post production facility was full time paid as a messenger with assurances that after training promotions would be done from within assuming I was ready.

One can build one's reel doing volunteer video for a good cause. Marketing or PSAs for a local non profit or community group. Certainly group creative endeavors are worthwhile too.

If there's a paying client involved then you should get paid. PAs get paid. Messengers/runners get paid.

NO internship should EVER require that you supply your own gear if it involves thousands of dollars of camera or editing equipment. If the company doesn't have gear for you to play with then they're likely too marginal to make for a valuable internship.

Harlan's right. You do work, you get paid!

Outstanding! I've just sent the link to a couple of "inquires" I had last week. ;)

Right ethicaly? Yes.

Right in actuality? No.

Look, I'm on Ellison's side... but the fact is, if you want to get anywhere in this industry, you'd better be prepared to put in more time than you are getting paid for. Freebies can pay off in spades. There is a difference of course between doing a freebie that's a complete waste of your time for people who don't appreciate it, and doing a freebie that gets you *good* exposure, contacts, or experience that you might otherwise not have gotten.

Harlan Ellison is RIGHT.... for Harlan Ellison. He doesn't need anything but more money. If I was in his position and someone wanted to use an interview I did in a documentary, sure I could ask for money, but if it came down to it, I'd be stupid not to let them use it either way as the exposure might have greater value to me. To him it doesn't, because he doesn't need it.

So maybe, let's agree on this mantra instead:

"You do work... you get VALUE."

Dylan, what you are describing more closely fits an internship. I don't dispute that.
When FOR PROFIT business request your labor and equipment and do not provide training, that's exploitation.

Connections with other crew can be valuable. Referrals to similar "employers" are worse than worthless. Such other "employers" expect the same price.

Material for one's reel can be valuable. Seem my comments about working for non profits. That's good exposure and for profit businesses seeing that work or getting that referral are not likely to expect the same rate the non profit got. But often other "crew" on such "freebie" shoots may hinder the results. Projects created amongst your own associates (a group working together "on the same page" so they ALL have something for their reels) is a good thing.

Yes, do work, get value is good but for profit business pay unless they are giving you a genuine internship. There are MANY other projects one can do for free (see above).

The 'work for free' thread has been around the block several times in different versions on this sight.

Let's make a distinction.

Working for 'free' means you get NO benefit. You have NOTHING to show for your efforts.

Now then, as stated, plenty of positions are posted that offer 'valuable experience' - Only you can determine if it is valuable for you or not. Then again, plenty of people will CLAIM they can offer connections or experience, how do you KNOW they can really deliver?

I NEVER work for free. I do work in exchange for SERVICES sometimes - but I always get said things IN WRITING. You want me to donate my time and gear for your project? Fine - I'll give you a days work, and in EXCHANGE you come clean out my garage, or you loan me your lighting kit when I need it, or come work audio for me next month on this project - and SIGN RIGHT HERE.

See, if you're honest - you've got no problem signing a piece of paper that says you'll loan/show up at some future date and time. It's a contract. It's professional. And it says you are too, even if you're just starting out.

It's easy enough to go 'intern' with an established company - they'll have the paperwork. If it is somebody who is fly by night - caveat emptor.

I'd do work for free. I've got a nice camcorder now, and as long as they're asking nicely and maintaining that level of respect throughout the shoot, I'd be generally ok with giving them some time, depending on the product.

It is kind of annoying when people say "no pay", but then tout that free lunch out there like we're a bunch of hobos! Ooh, you're going to FEED me? Well I haven't had a decent meal in months!

On the other hand, if they're all "we need someone from this time to this time, we're trying to accomplish this, we'll pay for your gas money over" I'd consider it if the project sounds fun. It all depends on if it's a quick, interesting gig and additude. People without additude generally know that they won't get the best unless they pay for it.

Why would you ever do a project SOMEONE ELSE is PROFITING from for FREE?
You donate your labor and your equipment and they make?

I'd expect any client to treat me with respect (nicely).

You need to differentiate between group creative learning efforts, donating services to a good cause or a business trying to rip off labor and rental. There's no "nice" way to rip someone. Some of the bets con men (women) are good at being "nice."

What you need to remember Craig, is that for every pro out there trying to earn a living,
there are 10 amateurs with camcorders living at home that will shoot for free so they have something to post on YouTube.

Yes, for sure. That's a serious problem.

Here's something I've posted in other places where this comes up. It hurts everyone in our business financially including the person doing it.
__________

One can run a fast food joint or a gourmet restaurant. Both reach a target market and both can be profitable.

The problems are:
when someone charges fast food prices for gourmet food
when someone charges gourmet prices for fast food results
when the fast food joint can't even make a decent burger

The problem is when people don't know how to set up a viable business model and it takes everyone down with them. Unfortunately the damage they do to the business is quite real and they do not go away en mass as there's always a new set of people replacing them. This promotes the bottom feeder corporate clients. I've seen FAR TOO MANY of them. The KNOW how to look for gourmet food at fast food prices.

Recently I saw a Law Firm looking for an UNPAID "Intern" WITH EXPERIENCE to shoot Video Depositions. I doubt the Law Firm would take risks with Video Depositions. Mistakes can be costly if not fatal to a case. They were looking for the one skilled trainable person who'd be DUMB enough to work in that field for FREE. Video Deposition is NOT something EVER given to newbies . . . but it can be done by someone who is skilled but has no clue how to value their work.

I've seen MANY other corporate "clients" doing similar things such as offering "contests" (you do the work and we cherry pick and offer a prize well below the value of the work).

_______________

Even a newbie has to charge a VIABLE newbie rate. That's not FREE though. More talent and skills charge more. Newbies charge less but charge what you're worth. Maybe too many people think they're worthless. Certainly that $3000-$10,000 kit you're shooting with isn't worthless though. Even a runner/messenger/PA has WORTH.

Imagine the following ad.

"Hi, I'm a professional who charges a realistic rate for my professional services. I am looking for an eager young newcommer to exploit. I don't want to spend the time and money necessary on gear and lessons to use it. I don't feel like paying a professional for their services or the gear they have - I'm hoping I will find a talented, enegetic and naive young filmmaker willing to put in the extra hours that I am not willing to pay for. In exchange, I'll buy you a fast food lunch. Oh, I might put your name on the credits. I might also offer you some sort of vague promise for 'future' work... or 'festival exposure' - but that's just to sooth your ego. What I'll actually do is run the same add again, and find another newbie to churn and burn, once you wise up to the game.

Why am I doing this? Why does a dog lick himself.... because he can."

Would anyone in their right mind respond to such honesty?

Getting together with a bunch of friends and pooling one's resources on a project, just for the fun and experience of shared fellowship and creativity - is a different venue. That's not 'working for free' - that's socializing and sharing creativity.

Real 'internships' have established paperwork with accredited colleges so that you GET the college credit... that's not working 'for free' either.

It's great you make this distinction Richard, this is what I and a couple of other filmmakers do as a group. We share resources, time, pick roles depending on the project, etc. We're definitely "working for free" but working collaboratively is how we want to make films and it benefits all of us. I don't even bother trolling craigslist for even free gigs, everyone up here wants a DP with a RED, a Gaffer with $10K work of lights, and an Editor with a Mac pro, all for free. Most of those filmmakers have never shot anything, half of the ads i laugh at.

But i guess I have the benefit of a day job.

Oh, who's really profiting on low-budget indie stuff? He's making a short film, or a no-budget slasher flick... there won't ever be any money involved for him, and if he did get lucky enough to become big, that's when you negotiate beforehand profit sharing.

I'm not saying I'll donate 2 weeks of blood sweat and tears and pay for all his equipment rental, but if he's doing something over a couple days and has a few well-planned out hours he needs someone to help him shoot, why not? I'm not saying you have to share the similar outlook, but it's not like I'm being conned here.

Maybe you don't read craigslist much. A large number of projects are actually for businesses. In fact some like to present as if it's a "project" when it's really a marketing video.

And some "indie" films actually do make some people money and others feel ripped off. Try reading about what happened to some of the people in "Borat"

What they thought would be a low budget doc turned out to be a blockbuster.
Romanian Villagers Angry About 'Borat' - CBS News
and
THR, Esq. Entertainment & Media Law Blog: Borat

BTW I've worked on two low budget films, one under $50,000 and the other not much more. They BOTH made money in DVD release (for the distributors).
I Was a Teenage Zombie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Horizon Films and Charter Entertainment made money on this and no one else in the crew did.
Black Cat Cinema - Transgression
The producer paid me out of his pocket for me to do the online edit.
The movie made money.

Lloyd Kaufman is a millionaire from Troma films. Ask the crew about their pay.
Some of the ads on craigslist are his. That's how he gets people to work for nothing these days.

With respect to working 'free'...
My commercial experience doing video is zip.
My actual profession is as a Computer Engineer/Programmer.

But if I was working commercially, I'd be saying you want skills, equipment, a work ethic, and expect to pay less than what a Household Appliance Repairman charges?
What the hell? Bye bye...

One final note on 'social tape-rolling' - I see this as a distinctly different phenomena than 'working for free'. If me and some friends have an idea for a funny two minute short, and we get together and shoot in on a weekend, - that's not 'working for free'... that's a social gathering with a creative theme.

If you want to work for someone you DON'T know, without pay - for the chance to 'make connections' - or for the promise of 'future work' then you are working on honing your professional chops. If that's your goal, then approach it professionally. DON'T WORK FOR FREE. Work for SOMETHING in exchange. If you show up with your gear, show up with a contract that says THEY will show up with their gear WHEN YOU CALL THEM. Ask them to sign it. If they won't - walk away. Their word is not as good as yours, and their 'experience' is useless.

(This is assuming an 'unkown' entity. If Steven Spielberg asks me to be a gopher on his set - I show up two hours early with a smile. That's a KNOWN entity...)

Richard has the right idea as do several others.

It's good to see many of us hold to standard that we expect something concrete in return. It bothers me that some don't which is why those types of ads continue to thrive on craigslist. Most disconcerting is how common it is for for profit commercial businesses to ask for free labor and free access to gear. Obviously they're getting it. Sometimes they're even using deceptive practices giving people the impression it's a "project" or "student project."

I think the key message in Harlan's video is that if the entity's objective is to make money you should get paid.

IMHO as long as the entity INTENDS to make money (even if it fails) you should get paid.

If you're asked to give something of value you have the RIGHT to EXPECT something of value in return even if it isn't money.

Maybe we need to list the common deceptions on craigslist (and many other media job sites actually).

I think I misunderstood the kind of work you were talking about then. By no-budget, I don't mean a 50,000 dollar movie. I certainly wouldn't do that for free. I'm talking about something more like 5,000, where it's the person's first or second movie and they're just learning the ropes of actually having equipment beyond a consumer camcorder.

Kyle, I STILL wouldn't reccomend working for someone like that 'for free'. I understand having a limited budget - that's why I'm suggesting BARTER or TRADE in exchange for services. Take your work seriously, ask for a written agreement of exchange of service/time/gear for what you are bringing to the table. If they won't agree to it in writing, then you're not ever going to see a 'benefit' for your labors. Again - talking about an unkown entity... some fly-by-night newbie with no traceable connections.

A local production company with established connections has no business advertising for 'interns' - unless they have a real agreement with an ecredited school to supply valuable school credit in exchange for services. Again - that's not 'for free' - you're getting school credit.

A note about 'barter'. Perhaps the 'producer/director' of the no budget indie - has a real 'day job' that they are using to finance their Magnum Opus. Fine - simply ask them to barter some of their time - "I'll donate my services as a soundman/DP - you do my tax return, fair enough?"

There's a solution to this conflict.

Nobody ever has to work for free. I'd never consider asking someone to work for free because there's a mechanism by which you can solve the problem of no cash-- its called a deferred salary, or a profit percentage. IF the product is sold outright, then as part of the sale, all the deferrals have to go into the price, or if its independently distributed, then the income after distribution expenses is distributed until all the deferred salaries are paid, and after that its divided by points.

Probably best to offer them their choice of the two, or a mix. Negotiate a realistic salary for the work involved, or a realistic percentage based on the target value of the final product. One advantage of this is that you are putting a dollar figure on the services- thus the person you're hiring can use that as a reference for their next job, and you know how much you need to recoup to see a real return. (I'm imagining some people are sloppy with their accounting.)

For every project I've done, since I quit being anyone's employee, I've taken risk in the project, and the other side of that risk is if the project pays off, then I will get rewarded commensurate with the risk.

I would never expect someone to add value to my project without giving them a cut of the upside as well.

In fact, if you have a really good project-- you should want to pay someone a salary (even deferred) because after you've paid that off, more of the upside goes to you.

So, evaluating whether the producer wants to give you a share or cash or deferred cash can tell you what they expect the value of the product to be. Its ok if they simply don't know.

But everyone-- whatever their role in the project-- should be paid, or have a claim on the project if it eventually turns profitable.

(Unions may have a problem with this, but generally I don't work with people who are in unions-- I wouldn't exclude someone because of membership, unless it became an issue.)

--

Also, amazing to hear they don't send out DVDs. All the creative projects I've been involved with (not hollywood movies) sending comps of the final product was almost a religion--sometimes weeks or months later, but it would always show up.

Not doing so shows an extraordinary amount of callousness.

Oh those nasty no-good unions... trying to make sure hard working people get paid... how inconsiderate! <tongue planted VERY firmly in cheek>

From a FORMER Union President and 2 time union member.

I feel that I need to point out that anyone wearing a $30 t-shirt made in Malaysia at a salary of 50 cents/day is in no position to moralize about "working for free" or exploitation until they start payng those sweatshop workers a decent wage. ;-)


J.

My problem with unions isn't their making sure that hard working people get paid, but their making sure that NO ONE but they get paid on the project.

I'm raising financing for a short film and I wanted to take this opportunity to pay back all the good, qualified people who donated their time to me in the past. But I can't, because 85% of my crew has to be union. On a 9-man crew, that leaves less than one full person who can be non-union.

It's not a money issue, either. I advertised union rates for everyone. But I got a LOT of e-mails and resumes from people starting out and aching to get enough experience to sign with the union, and I have to tell them that I can't hire them on a union shoot until they become union - which they can only do by working on a union shoot...

Kafka's mind would reel. ;-)


J.
(member of 2 unions)