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-   -   Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these cases? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/taking-care-business/537488-do-filmmakers-tell-cast-crew-where-money-coming-these-cases.html)

Brian Drysdale July 4th, 2020 02:11 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
That's about the budget for some of the short films made here, it used to be a lot higher when being shot on film.

You won't be able to pay anyone on that budget, so I would forget about that.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 02:14 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Yeah that's the thing, for sure, I want to be able to pay people. So I am wondering what would be a reasonable compromise, since I am told I am spending too much on it.

Pete Cofrancesco July 4th, 2020 02:15 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Ideally if you had supreme confidence in your abilities and a proven track record it be nice to spend more to achieve better results. It's hard to say whether 10k is enough or if it would be better to put this whole project on ice.

I understand the appeal of doing your own movie where you have complete freedom to do whatever you want. But you should have thought long and hard about the money needed to adequately produce such a project and the very real risk of losing all that money. That's why most if not all of us here stick to paying gigs instead of these self funded passion projects.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 04:04 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay. Well it's hard to get a track record without spending money though, isn't it? It would probably cost more than 10 K just to get a better a track record I think. Unless I use my payed gigs as a track record?

Brian Drysdale July 4th, 2020 04:39 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I can understand people telling you that it was costing too much and I suspect it may be a reflection on your current experience.

Working as a boom operator doesn't give you a track record as a director.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 04:49 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Well I have been hired to direct a two corporate type videos so far, and currently directing a third one, so I was referring to my directing of those. Sorry for not explaining that.

One movie people keep telling me to think of when budgeting is El Mariachi. They say just try to budget for really low like that one did, but I don't know how they pulled that one off, unless maybe American currency just goes a lot further in a budget, when shooting in Mexico...

Brian Drysdale July 4th, 2020 04:57 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
If you want a track record for feature film funders, you need dramas or higher end productions that allow you to demonstrate a visual flair, plus handling actors You also need to have done quite a few of them.

Don't believe the El Mariachi story about the budget, they spent a lot of money putting together the sound track. It was a good marketing device, but the distributor provided the funds to produce a usable film for the market. Also, Robert Rodriguez knew what he was doing, you don't.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 04:59 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay sure. However, in order to get a track record fictional of dramas or movies with visual flair, and actors, all that will add up a lot more than 10K though I am guessing?

Brian Drysdale July 4th, 2020 05:06 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
A hell of a lot more than 10k - $200,000 on all the work to get it ready.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 05:10 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay, but then is there really a point to making a series of dramas for a lot more than 10K, just to get funding for one? The idea of attracing funders is so I don't have to spend a very large amount of my money. But if I spend say 50K on a track record to attract funding, isn't that still spending a large amount of my own money still?

Pete Cofrancesco July 4th, 2020 05:11 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Like often the case you misunderstand . By track record itís plain and simple have you directed/produced a successful commercial feature film that made a profit? People in the real world want tangible results. Not I worked as a boom operator or I did some small side gig. No one is giving a job or funding without a track record. Proof positive of tangible results no one serious cares to listen to bs.

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 05:13 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay. So when people say tell me to get external funding, than that's not really an option without spending my own money on a feature film first then?

Pete Cofrancesco July 4th, 2020 05:32 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1960005)
Oh okay. So when people say tell me to get external funding, than that's not really an option without spending my own money on a feature film first then?

It boggles my mind you haven't even thought that deeply about what it would take to get external funding.

If you had worked as a director/producer on someone else's feature film that made money. That would be another way to show proof. Even winning an award from a legit film festival.

This is common sense stuff. Would you give me 10k to film a feature just on my say so? Just imagine what you as a prudent investor would want before handing over a large sum of money.

You have this one track naive way of looking at things from only your perspective. You want to make a movie, you need money, people should give you money, because you think you can make a movie...

Is any of this sinking in how unrealistic your ideas about external funding would go?

Ryan Elder July 4th, 2020 05:35 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Well it's not that I was planning on external funding, it's just that people tell me to use that instead of my own, and they say I need to be more open minded to getting external funding and that I need to try harder. So I am trying to take other people's advice who want to help as well.

But I didn't think I could get external funding likely.

As for directing or producing someone else's movie, would someone else allow me to produce or direct their movie without having done a feature myself, yet?

Paul R Johnson July 5th, 2020 12:53 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Ryan, you know the answers. One point. How many times do you misunderstand what we all say? Lots and lots. Have you not come to realise your interpretation all skills at dreadful. Not your fault, but after misunderstanding so many times, can you trust yourself when it comes to advice people give. It strikes me that people are actually saying they will not give you money for pie in the sky projects and suggest you just get money elsewhere, as in they are saying you are uninvestable in. They know you in the flesh, fa better than us, and they won't invest. Surely you realise this? You are in the classic catch 22 situation. A good movie to study.

Until you have made a good product that has recouped investment, people see it as very risky. Once you have made money, you make more with the next.

Frankly, we have already worked you out from your posts. I doubt none of us would ever invest in one of your crazy pie in the sky projects. This is why locally you cannot get investors. They see no return, or even guarantee you'd even shoot anything! You talk and think, but that's it!

Let's talk facts. How much have you got in the bank committed to your next project? A grand? 10 grand? An investor wants you to risk your own money too.

Why would they give youninvestmentbat all? Track record is terrible. Success rate is terrible. Communications simply dreadful. Talent? No idea because you don't seem to have any area where you excel? Please tell us we're wrong. Is there some talent we don't know about? Do you have dragons den on Canadian TV? If so how would you do?

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 12:53 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I know someone who got directing a feature film after writing and directing a single short film (this had a budget a lot larger than your new 10k feature budget, but it was shot on film and people got paid, although not their normal rates ). They wrote the feature's screenplay based on a play, however, he also had a producer on board who had the right connections to get a budget big enough to shoot 35mm on Panavision, with a full feature film crew.

This director had also worked as an art director on a small number of films and I believe the theatre.

The most important part of a producer's job is getting the funding in place, if they're not involved in that they're basically a production manager.

You don't need a track record to be a producer, but you need business, sales, legal skills and be good at handling people, so that you can put together deals in a tough industry.

If looking for external funding, you'll probably need first money, which may prove difficult without your personal seed money. However, you do need to convince them that this is a viable project with a market, which will be the hard part.. .

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 01:01 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay, makes sense. I was thinking of hiring a producer to help, if that would be a good idea.

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 01:27 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
You don't have the funds to hire a producer, you can get someone to help, but being a producer is a speculative occupation, so they don't get paid until they get the funding in place.

Don't confuse being a production manager with being a producer, they're different jobs.

Again, all this sounds like a social chat on a forum, rather than you actually doing anything to progress your film in the real world. The "if that would be a good idea" line (repeated again) just gives the impression that you haven't much of a clue and it's more about the forum time, going around in endless circles.

Josh Bass July 5th, 2020 01:57 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I think that's just how he talks. He ends almost every sentence he writes with "if that's best," "if that's a good idea," "I thought", etc. Don't know if it's just a personal quirk or if he really means each and every one of those qualifiers, i.e. uncertainty in almost everything.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 02:19 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh well I just want to do what's best. I could not end the sentence that way, but then it just sounds like I am making decisions for myself rather than trying to seek the best ideas and advice.

And yes I know a producer and a PM are two different jobs, but that is why I said maybe I should hire a producer, because the producer is the one who does the budget, don't they? Or I read the line producer does if that's true.

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 02:42 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
It sounds like you want a production manager or a line producer (they're basically the same) if you just want a budget. A producer does more than just the budget, it's not their main role, they may do it or get a production manager to do one, depending on how big their company is and how they personally work.

In the end, you will need to make decisions for yourself. Appearing indecisive is fatal.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 03:08 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay thanks. Well yes I would want that then.

I want to make decisions for myself, it's just I want I appreciate the advice on here, as well, and do not want to ignore it and do my own thing. But I do need to make some decisions for myself, yes.

One thing in the budget I have been considering in the shooting plan is perhaps it would cost less money to buy three cameras, and shoot with them all simultaneously, hoping to get shoots done faster, rather than pay everyone to work a longer shoot with one camera?

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 04:16 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Shooting multi camera will cut down on the shooting time. However, you still don't seem to have taken on board that, with a 10k budget, you won't have enough money to pay people on a feature film, You might on a short, but a feature film will take longer and, with 3 cameras, you've increased your camera crew,

There are other costs like insurance, location rental, costumes, art direction, food, etc, which will quickly eat into your budget, unless you're extremely good at getting some of these items for free. I'm not saying you cant do that, but it's time consuming and you may get a day, but getting longer gets more difficult.

Pete Cofrancesco July 5th, 2020 06:32 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I would be highly skeptical of anything he says. Heíll hire a producer, buy three cameras, etc and yet he has a 10k budget. I find it unbelievable that someone who hasnít held a steady job could fund any amount out of their savings. Of all the time he has been here he hasnít made one major purchase. Itís all just talk. I honestly would be more surprised if this movie ever got made.

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 07:27 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Yes, buying 3 cameras (I assume BM pocket cinema 4K) and their lenses and tripods etc would quickly eat up his limited budget. The whole enterprise certainly has the feeling of fantasy filmmaking or, at the very least, someone who throws out stuff without really thinking things out.

Regarding the spending, I suspect people around Ryan want to protect him from himself.

Pete Cofrancesco July 5th, 2020 08:24 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I agree more money isn't the answer especially in his case and people close to him are doing the right thing to protect him from himself. With a poor script, acting, and direction more money would simply yield a more polished bad movie.

Understanding how he thinks it's not hard figure out his plan with the three cameras. He's already alluded to it about shooting faster. I'm sure his idea behind the 3 cameras is to shoot 3x as fast, cutting his shoot time and his labor cost by a third. That's the plan right?

The smarter plan would be to get a reduced rental rate on the bare minimum equipment for 3 weeks and work as efficiently as possible in the time period.

Paul R Johnson July 5th, 2020 09:51 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
My experience of multi camera is that it often makes things more expensive and longwinded. He has trouble finding one decent cameraman, and now he needs three. Planning multicamera positions is tough, and the director also needs to direct the talent to the right camera, which when it goes wrong, makes the editor pull their hair out. If the idea is one main camera and a couple locked off and wider for cutting to when the main camera shot doesn't work, then a couple of cheap Chinese Gopro type cameras would do that!

3 streams to edit with instead of one is a totally different task.

Ryan - where exactly will you find this elusive producer, capable of generating income streams and yet working for very little? Have you actually made any progress? You had a poor script, poor actors, no equipment, no locations, and poor technical people, and some of these might turn up for the shoot, if they have nothing better to do. What has changed?

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 12:04 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh well I wanted a producer who knows more about the budgeting side to help with budgeting. I haven't found a producer yet but I did attract the interest of other filmmakers I worked with before, who would be working behind the camera, so to speak, such as someone I know who can pull focus and another person I know who has done production audio for me before. I haven't looked for new actors yet because I wanted to get other things done such as script changes first. I made some improvements to the story, as well as trying to keep the budget less in the script. Then I will hand the script to a script consultant to make further changes for improving.

As for multiple cameras, I was going by the experience I had on a multi-cam shoot. So far other people's projects I have helped work on, where a single camera set up, accept for one that was multi-cam, and I noticed the shoots got finished quite a bit faster, so I thought that might help and maybe a better investment, then spending the money on paying people for more shoot days with a single camera set up. I thought maybe 3 camera people were worth it, compared to more shoot days with one person.

But I was going by the experience I had before where things went faster. But mostly right now, I am delayed on actual shooting because of covid so far, so I wanted to take the time to do script improvements I figured.

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 01:46 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Two cameras would create less issues than 3 with lighting etc, it's not usual to have A and B cameras on a feature film. Also, when you get into more cameras the film tends to look like television, which is a serious risk on what sounds like a dialogue heavy film.

You also don't have the experienced multi camera operators and camera pedestals that the 1960s TV dramas used to create surprisingly daring camera moves and shots in their thrillers. Using more cameras, without the resources, risks everything becoming like a cheap daytime soap.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 01:54 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay thanks. Sure I can just do two if that is better. I feel some of the scenes will only be able to use 2 because in some of the storyboards, you would see a 3rd one in one of the shots.

When it was said before that 3 streams in the editing would be a different beast, do I have to use 3 streams or 2 if I use 2 cameras, or couldn't I just edit the way I always have been still?

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 02:00 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Editing depends on the scene, it also depends on how you wish to cut the action.

With the risk of a camera appearing in shot, I don't know why you suggested 3 cameras, it sounds like you haven't thought anything out, It's the job of a director to think these things out in advance.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 02:04 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I mean I can use 3 cameras in some of the shots set ups, not all. It depends on the storyboards. For some we can use 3, some not I would say.

Pete Cofrancesco July 5th, 2020 02:40 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Sounds idiotic you have a barebones budget but all you can think about how you need three cameras. In addition to needing three competent operators.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 04:43 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
But if it saves on shoot time, such as it did in past experience on someone else's movie, it means less days and therefore less money. If I only have one camera operator, that equals more shoot days and more money, doesn't it? It just seems of every idea I think of to get the shoot done faster, for less shoot days, is not good. Does this mean I shouldn't try to come up with any ideas on how to get the shooting schedule down and just live with it being a longer shoot?

Brian Drysdale July 5th, 2020 05:04 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Just cut down on the number of shots if you don't have enough time, You suddenly seem to have jumped from early 1960s, with the scene captured in scope, with all the actors interacting, to shooting TV type drama. Having 3 cameras is going to restrict shooting that way unless you've got fairly large rooms.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 05:19 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1960031)
Just cut down on the number of shots if you don't have enough time, You suddenly seem to have jumped from early 1960s, with the scene captured in scope, with all the actors interacting, to shooting TV type drama. Having 3 cameras is going to restrict shooting that way unless you've got fairly large rooms.

Oh well I thought one of the cameras would still be for the master shot, with all the actors interacting, wouldn't it?

But yes if 3 cameras is too much, then I can just stick with one. But I'm not shooting in scope though. I have decided go with 1.85:1 because I thought it would give me more vertical height for some shots I wanted, plus it would make it so I don't need to have as many extras in some shots, or as much set decoration, if the aspect ratio is not so wide.

Pete Cofrancesco July 5th, 2020 08:52 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
For every reason you can give for multi camera I can give against so at best it's a net zero.

Cons:
1. Expense: You need multi operators, the cost of the equipment will triple, not only will you need 3 cameras, you will need 3 lenses, monitors, memory cards, batteries, tripods, cages, operators, etc. You could easily spend you're entire budget just on the cameras and accessories.

2. Complexity: You will have triple the footage to review and grade. They all need to match in exposure and color. All of the takes and cameras will need to be labeled managed and synced. You'll need to store and backup triple the footage (if its raw that's no joke).

3. Time: you will need to transport, setup and break down triple the cameras for every shoot. Actors need know which is the main camera and you'll need to keep the cameras out of each other shot, you'll also need keep track of 3 cameras for the 180 rule.

So how is three cameras saving you time and money?

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 09:51 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco (Post 1960034)
For every reason you can give for multi camera I can give against so at best it's a net zero.

Cons:
1. Expense: You need multi operators, the cost of the equipment will triple, not only will you need 3 cameras, you will need 3 lenses, monitors, memory cards, batteries, tripods, cages, operators, etc. You could easily spend you're entire budget just on the cameras and accessories.

2. Complexity: You will have triple the footage to review and grade. They all need to match in exposure and color. All of the takes and cameras will need to be labeled managed and synced. You'll need to store and backup triple the footage (if its raw that's no joke).

3. Time: you will need to transport, setup and break down triple the cameras for every shoot. Actors need know which is the main camera and you'll need to keep the cameras out of each other shot, you'll also need keep track of 3 cameras for the 180 rule.

So how is three cameras saving you time and money?

Oh okay, well I was trying to save time and money cause it means less shoot days and less days to pay people for the extra shoot days. So I still thought I might save more if there is less days.

But I didn't think it would create more footage to go through in the editing though. Because if I used a single camera, I would still be getting all those same shots, but I would just be doing them one at time with a single camera. So I thought the amount of footage would be the same, because you are still moving a single camera around, getting all those same shots. So I don't see how the footage would add up to more. I also didn't think the 180 degree rule would be that hard with more than one camera, as long as you establish the line during the camera placement.

But if multiple cameras does not save you time and money on extra shootdays, then why do productions that use them spend the extra money, when they can save on money then? Why don't those movies that use a 3 camera set up, just one one then to save money? What's the purpose?

Most of your points make sense about how it would be more money, but if it's more money, than why do other productions do it then and not try to save on money?

Pete Cofrancesco July 5th, 2020 10:26 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
The first and most important question I will not research for you is the cost of the equipment. If three outfitted cameras consumes most of your budget then what would be the point of debating the other points? Also include the extra labor of manning them. Get back to us with the cost.

Ryan Elder July 5th, 2020 10:31 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay, thanks, good point.

Well how do other filmmakers keep the cost of their first features down so low? If you are forced to, what the ways to do it then? I was watching Film Riot, and Ryan Connolly goes through all his projects and talks about the way he got them all shot on microbudgets is he had everyone work for free, but I really do not see that as a good thing though, and want to pay, if possible.


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