DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Taking Care of Business (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/taking-care-business/)
-   -   Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these cases? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/taking-care-business/537488-do-filmmakers-tell-cast-crew-where-money-coming-these-cases.html)

Josh Bass July 8th, 2020 12:20 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Please do not shoot your movie with everyone wearing masks unless you rewrite it for that to make sense. No one will want to watch a bunch of covered faces for 90 minutes. Think of how ridiculous that would look. If safety concerns are that much of a problem for people (which is totally understandable especially given the probably very low pay), then just dont do the movie right now. It was already likely to not make its money back, I would think everyone in masks would guarantee that.

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 12:28 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
In real life people don't wear masks all the time. so shooting a film with the actors doing that wouldn't make sense. Also, it's not just an add on, having a pandemic is part of the world, so the whole approach to telling the story changes.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 03:43 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay thanks, I don't have to make it now, I just wonder if this covid mentality will even go away anytime soon, or if I should just accept it and try to make the movie. If I can get people who are okay with not wearing masks of course.

But would it be weird if the movie takes place in modern times, yet we are pretending that it takes place in an alternate timeline where covid never happened?

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 04:02 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
It depends when the film is set. You can set it pre covid or during covid, you could set post pandemic, but you don't yet know the nature of that world, if there is a vaccine or if people taking other measures.

All this is stuff you need to work out. Unfortunately, it goes with being a producer/director/writer, so don't expect people to give you all the answers. Being creative involves creative thinking.

Paul R Johnson July 8th, 2020 09:47 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
How many TV programmes do we watch at the moment, or movies, where people are wearing masks? The public accept what they are given. Unless it references specific dates and times, they don't care. It could save you a fortune on live sound capture though? You could add dialogue with no lip sync issues, change chunks with no reshooting, and it would be unique - You'd be the only director brave enough to do it.

Remember that in aviation movies like Top Gun, they got slammed by the flying fraternity for constantly taking off their masks when flying, which real pilots don't, because that is where their mics are! (and oxygen) . They daren't go for realism, they had to fake it because that's what the audience need.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 12:05 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay thanks. Yes I remember that in Top Gun. And I also thought of the sound advantages as well. It's just I am worried that if all the actors wear masks, that it can get in the way of emotion and be awkward.

If I have to use my creative choices, my instincts tell me that this would be so awkward it will ruin the movie. But at the same time, actors don't want to do without the masks in the majority I don't think. One person suggested to me that the actors will be good as long as they social distance during shooting. But then I will have to shoot in a wider aspect ratio, or heavily compromise the shots, and need much bigger locations then.

Josh Bass July 8th, 2020 12:20 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
....oooooooooorrrr just wait so you dont waste $10-50000.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 12:24 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Wait for what?

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 12:30 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Logic would suggest until the Covid issue is over.

Film making is always a compromise, so don't fool yourself.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 12:35 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Well I just wanted to get started sooner if possible with no more waiting or delays if possible. I also thought I could do it as an animated movie as well, because then of course, the actors do not have to interact with each other in covid times. Could animation possibly work better therefore, as long as I get a good animator on board?

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 12:57 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I assume you're talking about a short rather than a feature film. There are a number of animations currently being made during the covid outbreak, although, I don't know why an animator would want to work with you rather than their own short projects.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 12:59 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
No I meant a feature film. I thought I could possibly get an animator interested if they liked the script, or at least trying to be optimistic about it.

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 01:49 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Are you serious!!!

You really don't have a clue about the amount of work and time involved in making an animated feature film.

If you want to do it, animate the film yourself and spend the next few years making it. You may learn something along the way instead of going around in circles on forums.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 01:57 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Well I'm just trying to think outside the box on how to get around the covid issues. But maybe that is my problem because if whenever I try to go outside the box, my ideas are too problematic, and I should not try to think outside?

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 03:35 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
No problems about thinking outside the box, but you do have to have critical judgment and know when to reject things. There's nothing wrong with an animation, but unless you've got the skills to do it yourself ,it's a non starter for a low budget feature.

Reading your last message about your script on the other forum leaves the impression that you're way out of your depth and are totally lost. If you can't work out a way for a character to dramatically get an item yourself, why are you wasting other people time? This is what writers do, it's part of the job, it may take a few attempts to come with a really good method, but you don't need to keep asking on a forum. You won't get a solution to the problem there, it's between you and your keyboard.

The people on that forum haven't read your script, they know very little about it, so how can they give you a meaningful answer.

Ryan Elder July 8th, 2020 06:24 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh well when it comes to the script, there is one way the person can get the bag, it's just I have to break traditional story structure to do it, and wasn't sure if that would make the story less engaging as a result. But I have have three options to pick from, and was just wondering other opinions on which was the best.

John Nantz July 8th, 2020 08:12 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Ryan -
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1960100)
Well I'm just trying to think outside the box on how to get around the covid issues. But maybe that is my problem because if whenever I try to go outside the box, my ideas are too problematic, and I should not try to think outside?

I started to write a reply, one that would ask you to do a survey of those who will, or might, work with you on this project, to find out who would be, nor not be, willing to work without a mask and PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), but then decided not to. Why? Because ...

Because, the more I think about it, the approaching end of the warm season followed by the cold one (with indoor heater noises, remember the Judo video?), the mask issues, the Covid flu issues (and loosing a key person that kills the production), for a Feature that everybody will be proud of and not thrown together helter-skelter.
We're looking at Mid JULY right now and the cold fall is right around the corner. The days are already getting shorter. I'm thinking "Not this year".

There is too much left work on, too many unknowns, too many issues, and the time is running out.

Pessimist here wants to know:

Script - what percent is it at?
Scenes - need a list of scenes and locations
Equipment list and personnel for each scene (based on this, one can start costing it out)
Legal stuff - what is needed? How long to get approvals by location?
Costumes -
Etc.

Disclaimer: this is not my forte so that's why I've been out of here. However .... I don't see how anyone can put a Feature together without some basic information. Schedule! Cost! These are important things. Need to know lots of stuff.

All the time seems to be spent on the computer, working at a snail's pace. Sorry, but just don't see how one guy (and maybe a friend or two), can put this low/no cost Feature tougher in this timeline. If you think otherwise, let's talk Timeline.

Brian Drysdale July 8th, 2020 11:55 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1960103)
Oh well when it comes to the script, there is one way the person can get the bag, it's just I have to break traditional story structure to do it, and wasn't sure if that would make the story less engaging as a result. But I have have three options to pick from, and was just wondering other opinions on which was the best.

I still don't know what the problem is and why it should break the 3 act structure. Getting the bag is just one more difficulty that a character has to overcome. You, as the writer, just have to work out the tactics that the character has to use to get it. Quite a few films have characters having to get something, be it real or just a device to get the story going and is forgotten about as the action takes over.

Given the other issues you've had in film making, I suspect it's more you creating problems in your head than any problem the character may have in getting a bag.

You're the only person who has the script, so you're the only one who can work it out. Repeatedly asking questions on a forum that no one can directly answer will get you no where. There were a number of good thoughts in that thread, which you seemingly couldn't engage with, which does seem to fit a pattern in your thought processes.

Making changes in a script can have ramifications in a number of ways, but that's part of writing.

Brian Drysdale July 16th, 2020 01:30 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Regarding how you plot out your story - these are different, the plot is how you tell the story. The usual method is to do a treatment which gives the story in a standard format, not a script format in about 10 to 12 pages. This doesn't have any dialogue, just has what happens.

You then work things out with the treatment, which takes time. There is no easy method and the answers usually lie within the story, the characters, their needs and their world.

Ryan Elder July 20th, 2020 06:37 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay thanks. I wrote a few outlines, and went with the one I thought was best, it's just other people who have read it say I should go back to the drawing board, but not sure how to approach it now, since some of the suggestions means not having a a traditional 3 act structure, but maybe that's okay if it means the characters are more logical?

As for making it an animated movie, it was suggested to me by one other so far, to do an animated movie instead, if I cannot get enough people interested because of covid, but it was also said on here that I shouldn't because it would just be more challenging to do that. So I am not sure if I should try to the animated route or not. Would it be more costly?

Brian Drysdale July 21st, 2020 01:05 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I suspect the people in the other forum don't realize that you're talking about a feature film when they bring up animation. I saw that message and they seem to be suggesting that you do the animation. If you can do the animation yourself, that's fine, but it's unlikely you'll find an animator or animators to do that amount of work for free. They are proposing that you make a short animated film, not your feature film, this something that you can do on your own.

For a treatment, you need more than an outline, it will go through everything, so that you've more or less solved all the questions that you're bringing up in the forums. That's a writer's job and if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

You'd be surprised how films still have a 3 act structure, even the non linear ones. The structure won't affect the characters, that's revealed by what they by their actions. Even dialogue is something that they do, they're angry with someone, verbally put pressure on other characters or bullying them, are saddened by what someone says, or what they have to tell someone. they are in despair. (Just like people who write the dialogue in these forum messages), they lie, they blackmail. These are all actions that use the spoken word,

If there's no dramatic point to some dialogue it shouldn't be there. You have to hide the exposition or use it for a dramatic purpose. As Robert McKee puts it: "use exposition like bullets".

It's up to you to work the outline that's working with the readers into a suitable structure as you're writing the treatment. This prevents you getting bogged down with the dialogue.

You can pitch the outlines to people you trust to see their reaction, so that you can make a judgment call on the one that gets the response with your audience. However, you do need to be able to make the creative decisions yourself.

As mentioned by people on the other forum, you should be building up your network of collaborators in the real world and get working on a film. You don't get experience by asking endless questions on forums. You won't learn anything unless you make mistakes and learn from them.

Unfortunately, I suspect you've become addicted to forums, which is getting in the way of you progressing as a film maker. because you're just going around in circles like a rudderless ship.

Pete Cofrancesco July 21st, 2020 04:17 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Ryan reminds me of a poor man's Charlie from the movie Adaptation. Great movie have you ever seen it?

Brian Drysdale July 21st, 2020 04:41 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Yes, although I'm nor sure if Robert McKee can help Ryan.

Pete Cofrancesco July 21st, 2020 05:14 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1960236)
Yes, although I'm nor sure if Robert McKee can help Ryan.

If he ever had a nemesis it would be Ryan.
Ryan chasing after Robert McKee. Mr McKee I have one more question about my movie...

Ryan Elder July 22nd, 2020 06:22 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay, well I do still have a 3 act structure, just not the traditional type of 3 act structure that you read about writing. But maybe that is okay, and I can just own it, and hope for the best.

Brian Drysdale July 23rd, 2020 01:18 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
What do you mean by not a traditional 3 act structure?

Paul R Johnson July 23rd, 2020 11:02 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
You either have 3 acts, or not - surely?

Brian Drysdale July 23rd, 2020 12:54 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
May be it's Godard: A story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order. Although, it may be a case that in possibly attempting non linear story telling Ryan is digging a hole for himself.

Some of my films are non linear, there is a 3 act structure to them and the important bit is the stroy, but you run the risk of losing part of the audience. There are writing books which go into that type of story telling.

If you're doing that type of thing, you do need to be confident about what you're doing and where the thrust of the story lies. Unfortunately, given all the forum questions on his script, Ryan doesn't seem to be that certain.

Ryan Elder July 28th, 2020 10:37 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Oh okay. Well I have enough story for a 94 page script, but I just don't know if I see it as 3 acts. It kind of feels like four acts when I see it.

Or some people seem to call this Act I, Act 2a, Act 2b, and Act 3, so perhaps I have something similar there. I would say the story is linear though.

Brian Drysdale July 29th, 2020 12:39 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats | Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com

It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.

Paul R Johnson July 29th, 2020 01:14 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I often worry that so many of the things we do get analysed and then somebody produces the cunning plan guaranteed to work, by studying multiple successful products - not just scripts. You see a great movie. It really has an impact, so you break it down and discover three sections - Brian's example a great one. You then discover the same format in another of your favourites. The rule becomes solid and unbreakable, and the logical conclusion being that any script, if it fits the rules, must be a great one. Sometimes rules just fit, but the rule is just a fluke. Something products natural seem to fall into. Designing script content to fit the rules is futile, because you will create padding and cut decent content to make it fit - which is a backwards step.

I know you need rigid parameters to work in - but creative people design their work for others, not themselves. Story telling is a mystic art. Some people instinctively are great story tellers. Others simply suck. Some songwriters cannot do lyrics, so don't. Some do both, and do. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Elton John spring to mind - like the Gershwins. I firmly believe trying to develop skills you simply don't have, or have poor ones is futile. I have managed to get to my age by being able to do lots of things competently, but not brilliantly. Competently enough to get paid. My list of things I wanted to do, but have failed miserably at is thankfully short.
I cannot:
1. Dance
2. Fly aircraft
3. Play the drums properly
4. Play brass instruments and finally
4. Write scripts

Oddly - I know exactly how to do these things. I understand the language, the technicalities, have had the opportunities to do all of them multiple times. I can even give presentations on these subjects, I know them so well. However - my brain does not let me do them to any kind of standard. I've written a rotten script and it's been produced. Looking back, it really was dreadful, and only got produced because it fitted the pre-contracted cast as a last resort. I have no idea how many sections there were and only my friends were honest enough to tell me how dire it was ....... afterwards!

If your script is good, and everyone has confidence in it - then it is fine. Who cares how many chunks? You have to stop, if you can, working by wrote. For you, it doesn't help.

Brian Drysdale July 29th, 2020 04:32 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Of course, understanding structures don't mean you can write a story. If that were the case, a lot more people would be writing great scripts. I know someone who gleefully told me that he'd learnt the secret of script writing on a course - the 3 act structure. However, in asking further he didn't seem to know what a story was.

BTW I suspect he did because he told tell stories about things that happened at work etc. but he didn't seem to understand story as a concept.

Since Robert McKee got mentioned earlier, here are some of his thoughts.

"Story is about principles, not rules."

"Story is about eternal. universal forms, not formulas."

"Story is about archetypes, not stereotypes."

"Story is about thoroughness, not shortcuts."

"Story is about the realities, not the mysteries of writing."

"Story is about mastering the art, not second guessing the marketplace,".

"Story is about respect, not disdain, for the audience."

"Story is about originality. not duplication,".

Unfortunately, knowing all these things doesn't mean that you can write a good story.

Ryan Elder July 31st, 2020 02:39 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1960391)
A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats | Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com

It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.

Oh okay, according to that beat chart, I would say the script follows all of those, for sure. So I guess it is a 3 act structure then, yes.

Greg Miller July 31st, 2020 06:03 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco (Post 1960046)
Are you going to be happy looking back when you’re old at all the years spent talking?

Ryan will never grow old. Ryan is Peter Pan.

And are we going to be happy looking back at all the years we spent talking to Ryan? ("in one ear and out the other" as my father used to say)

Paul R Johnson August 1st, 2020 12:57 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

Dave Baker August 1st, 2020 02:25 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Ryan's meandering questions remind me of the pantomime song that goes "There's a hole in my bucket dear Lisa..............". Or, for our American friends who maybe won't know the song, Catch-22.

Josh Bass August 1st, 2020 04:18 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1960434)
When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?

Pete Cofrancesco August 1st, 2020 08:20 AM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass (Post 1960436)
I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?

I feel like Paul's story could be improved if it was retold to include three acts. Adding a mid point climax to the second act. See these talks haven't been a complete waste. Some of the knowledge intended for Ryan inadvertently rubbed off on me. ;-)

At this stage I'm chef Ramsay. "Really!, Really! My gran could do better! And she’s dead!" I feel like grabbing his camera away from him and telling him to Piss off while I make his movie for him. But instead I grimace and fight the urge to say anything.

Paul R Johnson August 1st, 2020 12:36 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
Remember his previous incarnations have been going quite a long time - not quite 10 years, but moving that way. He was shooting on DV back then.
He joined one forum in 2014 - ten years was perhaps a good memory test that I failed - it just SEEMS like 10 years.

Josh Bass August 1st, 2020 01:45 PM

Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case
 
I guess thought youd only been conversing with him on here.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:33 AM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2021 The Digital Video Information Network