Ridiculous Job Offers / Demands!!

[George Ellis]

Chris, this thread is our own Entertain DV section. Now if the thread is getting long and causing indexing issue or such, we could start a *new* one... ;)

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Brian Mills

...over 57,000 views and over 980 posts! This is BY FAR the most popular thread on the site.

Sorry, no it isn't, not by a long shot.

The most popular thread on this site is 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project with 172,298 views and 2,974 posts. It began a few months before this one. It's still the king, but we've got several threads on DV Info Net that are well over 1,000 posts, such as Homemade 35mm Adapter with 185,096 views and 1,516 posts. So no this is not by far the most popular thread on the site. But that's not the point anyway, unless the primary goal is just to build the biggest thread, in which case you're a third of the way there with a long way to go.

A little ways back, a comment was directed at Chris Ward (a friend of mine and one of the original members of this site) stating that he "must not have read this entire thread." How can *anyone* outside of its core contributors be expected to read all 66 pages of it, when it's just the same thing over and over again? There's no progression in this topic. Nothing changes. It's kind of like a broken record. And I'm not sure that anybody here is really expecting it to change (kudos to Bert Smyth though for pointing out the CL flagging process).

Some of you guys remind me of a group of old ladies sitting around on the front porch clucking about the deplorable state of the neighborhood. Key word: sitting. Not doing anything about it. Okay, so we've spent 980 posts recognizing a bad trend. What next? What are you going to *do* about it -- are you just going to watch that never-ending trainwreck continue to unfold, or are you going to actively flag those ads per Bert's suggestion and help make CL a better place for the effort?

If the primary goal here is to educate folks about the value of their time, isn't that purpose better served with a comprehensive, informed document in an article format of a few pages, rather than an endless string of posts pointing out ridiculous CL ads? Who's willing to submit such an article for the benefit of educating newbies, if that really is the goal?

Or... if the appeal of this thread is really about its entertainment value, then shouldn't it belong in Area 51, which is where the rest of our "news of the weird" goes?

Finally there's one other consideration. I'm not so sure that I'm comfortable with all of the content lifted directly from CL and copied here verbatim, especially in such a negative spirit. I'm wondering if it constitutes a copyright violation (if this thread ever disappears completely, you'll know it's because I got a knock on the door from CL attorneys). So as a site owner I have to weigh the value of this thread -- whatever that is -- against the potential copyright issue and the generally negative aspect in which CL is portrayed here. I sure wouldn't want to see a similar thread about DV Info Net elsewhere on the web (believe me it's been tried, but has yet to happen to this extent). So that's my take on this deal, just so you know.

[Greg Boston]

Flagging down those posts is the way to go about it. I know of at least one other forum that has a Craigslist flagging thread going. They post the link, and people from all over who wouldn't normally see it, get to flag it to death in short order. It helps minimize the time of visibility in those illegal posttings.

Along with prohibition of non-paying jobs in TV-Radio section, it's also prohibited to post anything that refers you to another site to apply. That mainly applies to all those ridiculous ads for reality show casting, models needed, etc. Especially since many of those referred sites are bogus agencies trying to get you to pay for the privilege of something that's free.

-gb-

[Jay Gladwell]

Come on, Chris, we old ladies need some way to vent, from time to time. This provides the perfect venue for just that.

It's just an innocuous way to blow off some steam.

It's as if this thread were the forum's water cooler.

[Don Donatello]

"We are in need of 1 camera guy for Friday - sunday to shoot with our current cameraman in Ohio. We will pay for trip hotel and give you small pay. I need a Hustler, good, hard working, camera man. We supply all equipment "

again i have to ask ( in general ) what is the difference between these no/low paying jobs and somebody on DV info doing a no budget project and asking friends to help ( another word for work) out for a day ( or several days) with no pay ? ...

many of these no pay , exploitation jobs are starting jobs for those with no experience ( i know many advertise for experinece but in the end they pick between those that replied) ... or perhaps somebody wants to try their hand at shooting football or somebody has never used a hvx200 ? so here you get to try out the HVX and get a little pay using it ?...

[Dennis Stevens]

Maybe 'Job Offers: the Good, the Bad and the Silly' deserves its own forum.

Perhaps there could be a rule saying 'You cannot just copy a post from craigslist'. They can summarize the notice in their own words, if they want. It might encourage actual discussion issues, instead of just kvetching.

I know a lot of people post 'How much should I charge' questions, which is always an important topic, and sort of related, IMO. 'Ridiculous offers' and 'how much to charge' basically go to how you break into a highly competitive industry. As we always say, you can't tell individual people how much to charge, or how much to pay.

Nonetheless, people always ask the question, and the many helpful people of DVInfo lay out the issues - consider travel time, use of your equipment, etc.

Of course, to kvetch is human, and where better to bellyache than an internet message board?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Dennis Stevens

where better to bellyache than an internet message board?

But that's just it -- that's what typical internet message boards are for. I started DV Info Net as an alternative to that. This isn't your typical internet message board. It's not intended to operate as yet-another-haven-for-bellyachin' as there's plenty of that elsewhere on the web already.

DV Info Net is about sharing useful information that you can take with you into your day. The gist of this thread is useful if it can educate newbies about the value of their time, but I don't think it needs to be an endless gripe session in order to do that.

Again: I have to weigh the watercooler / bellyache value against the liability, as I explained in the last paragraph in my post above. Meanwhile, Donatello is right, there's not a lot of difference between some of these CL ads and our own Helping Hands listings.

Honestly I can't sympathize too much for the watercooler angle. In terms of what this thread can actually *accomplish,* the best thing I can see happening is some proactivity regarding the flagging of those ads, as Greg noted above. Otherwise this whole thing, whether it's entertaining or not, has a pretty bad vibe to it.

[Jason Robinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Honestly I can't sympathize too much for the watercooler angle. In terms of what this thread can actually *accomplish,* the best thing I can see happening is some proactivity regarding the flagging of those ads, as Greg noted above. Otherwise this whole thing, whether it's entertaining or not, has a pretty bad vibe to it.

I do see this thread as having run its course. Several times. And then having been beaten to death a few times more and buried. And then exhumed and beaten again just to make a point about it being dead.

Move it to another more appropriate topic, kill it, sticky it, lock it off, whatever you decide. As a locked off sticky it can serve as a resource of ideas of what NOT to do. Killed and entirely gone from the site might not be the best idea (my opinion of course) due to the humor loss or information loss. But you are totally right that 3 years and 66 pages should be enough to get the point across.

jason

[John Brinks]

Please don't lock off this thread Chris, it is just so much fun!

[Craig Seeman]

But I keep finding it amazing how many new ways to exploit!

For $12/hr the relationship counsler wants you to edit/shoot and maybe some typing and data entry too!

I suspect there's no evil intent. Just another ignorant poster.

FCP Video Editor (East Village)

Reply to: job-363109321@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-06-29, 2:33PM EDT


Talented video editor with Final Cut Pro expertise for documentary about couples/relationship work. Geared to help singles and couples learn new communication skills so as to have more peace and love rather than struggle and pain. I do relationship counseling, give lectures and workshops. My home and office is in the East Village.

Great opportunity for creative editor/filmmaker. Graphic design skills are a plus. $12 per hour. Part Time. Flexible hours. Must have your own set up.
(if willing/able to do other tasks, typing, data entry, etc, more hours may be available)

Please email resume and cover letter that indicates you’ve read this ad. In the subject line say something that really says you read this ad. It helps if your response catches our eye.

[Craig Seeman]

Chris, it's not simply water color. These ads exist because there's a lot of ignorance by both potential employer and employee. In those cases I really do think these posts educate.

Only over time can one see the patterns and only over time does one discover a diversity of misconceptions.

While I don't respond to exploiters (they already know what they're doing) we need to educate those who may be victims. I believe those people do read these threads and we've even seen some discussion why certain ads may or may not be acceptable since we all have different thresholds.

In cases where I see posters who may be ignorant regarding the value of our services, I do respond to them.

It's all about education Chris, educating those entering the field as service provider or client, warning those about what we perceive may be an exploitive situation.

If the education ends (this thread), we allow all that to continue unabated.
Us veterans might laugh at some of the posts around this "watering hole" but many others are learning. Some do post. Some read silently, but they learn.

[Chris Hurd]

Like I said... isn't that education process better served in an article format? Instead of 66 pages of laughing and pointing fingers?

[Craig Seeman]

Articles are not living documents. They're static. While the posts today might look the same as they did 3 years ago, they're actually different. As gear changes (affordable HD variations) the posts have changed.

We see the "valuation" of HD gear the same as 1/3" chip SD gear for example. We can see that it's gone beyond HDV to some of the more expensive HD gear. There's been the change from all "cheap" gear is alike to all gear is alike with requests for varicams, p2 gear etc mixed in with HDV and DV. This is something we didn't see in the past.

We see the change from video skills as a specialized craft (that can be exploited) to one that has the same degraded value as other skills as my most recent post. Editor (and they really want a shooter too) along with a little typing and data entry as a "plus" skill.

You will note the posts are less frequent here than they used to be. That's not due to a lack of interests (at least on my part). I think we've become more discerning as the list grows. No longer "work on my movie for free" is enough to qualify. Posts usually include the newer trends I note above.

Posts now include requests for more expensive equipment for example. They include newer/changes in job descriptions. They've changed from "wishful thinking make my pilot/movie" posts that will be seen by X to "legit" for profit businesses calling for "experienced" interns or entry level positions whose pay might be expected for starters were they not to include "must have your own gear."

In short, to my eyes, this document lives, changes over time, and we as both participants and discerning editors add posts that show such changes.

If anything, this thread warrants a separate searchable index but that would be a burdensome job.

Think of it more like an editable wiki with new categories being added with subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes.

Yes, maybe it's large and growing to what you may view as "extreme" lengths but that alone speaks volumes about what's going on in our industry. The length itself speaks. When talking about someone afflicted with pituitary giantism one can describe the height or actually witness the growth over time. The latter is much more compelling.

The continued growth of this thread has meaning to the industry. It's genuinely unique in its testament.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Like I said... isn't that education process better served in an article format? Instead of 66 pages of laughing and pointing fingers?

[Dennis Stevens]

I've skimmed this thread from time to time. Reading it earnestly every day isn't very useful - it really is the same thing over and over.

Nonetheless, all that skimming does effect how I bring people into my projects. I've told everyone I work with about the huge animous towards people who want the sky and don't want to pay. If we become one of those exploiters, no one serious is going to want to work with us. Whatever the rate, I believe in treating people with respect for their time and talent.

So my point is, having the thread here was useful in avoiding some pit falls. The fact that people keep adding to the thread suggests there's a real issue worthy of discussion. Hence my earlier post, that maybe a new forum could be established where we discuss the issues, instead of the public ridicule.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Articles are not living documents. They're static.

Oh no. An article doesn't have to be static. It certainly can be a living document. It can be edited, updated, presided over by a small group, commented upon, revised... that's the beauty of the web. A lot of the effort that's gone into this thread would probably be better spent on maintaining such a project. From my point of view, it would certainly be more helpful than this thing, and in a way that DV Info Net can be proud of.

In short, to my eyes, this document lives, changes over time, and we as both participants and discerning editors add posts that show such changes.

"Yes, but your methods," to quote Walter Parks Thatcher. I'd be a lot more forgiving if the tone throughout this thread wasn't so malicious in its analysis. And again, I'm not seeing any proactivity. I'm not seeing you guys doing anything about it besides griping. CraigsList has obviously made a conscious effort in good faith to curtail these kinds of ads via their flagging process. Why aren't you guys using it. What bothers me here is the impression this thread gives that some of you guys are more interested in railing about these ads than properly reporting them to CraigsList.

If anything, this thread warrants a separate searchable index but that would be a burdensome job.

I strongly disagree that it warrants any indexing... what purpose could it possibly serve to dig up a weekend job from a couple of years ago. The only trend that might be worth examining is to find out if the same people are posting these "ridiculous job offers" on a continuous basis and where; and if so, report those people to CraigsList.

Yes, maybe it's large and growing to what you may view as "extreme" lengths but that alone speaks volumes about what's going on in our industry.

It speaks volumes about what's going on at CraigsList, at least that's the impression that it gives. I'm not convinced that CraigsList is fully representative of our industry. I suspect that their popularity simply draws a disproportionate amount of bottom feeders.

The continued growth of this thread has meaning to the industry. It's genuinely unique in its testament.

The sincerity with which you say that is a mighty somber tone relative to all the whooping and hollering going on in the rest of this thread, which has been a challenge for me to endure what with all the profanity and vulgar comments that it's drawn over the years. That plus the liability issue are my primary concerns. I'm not doubting that there's some potential to educate, but it's not an easy read and therefore not nearly as helpful as it could be.

Look Craig, I really appreciate your feedback. You're the first person to present what I'd consider to be a valid case for preserving this thread. I'm not yet entirely convinced that it needs to go on in its present form though. My problem with it concerns its ugliness, and I'm not interested in any rationalization for why it's like that -- I'm interested in how we can effectively change it. Yes I fully agree that there is the potential to educate, just so we're all clear on that. But it is going to change, and I'm open to feedback on the best way to do that.

If somebody just wants to bitch about CraigsList, then they'll be disappointed with happens to this thread.

If somebody wants to *actually put a stop* to these ridiculous job offers / demands which are ruining our industry, then they should start using the Craigslist ad flagging process, as Bert Smyth and Greg Boston have pointed out.

If somebody wants to educate our readership about what's happening to our industry, there's better approaches to it than the way this thread has been presented. For those who truly care about that education process, please work with me on improving how we do that.