Shooting in frame mode at DVinfo.net

K. Forman · May 22nd, 2002, 06:45 AM

Everybody seems to like frame mode, and it sounds like a good idea for sharper frames. But when I have shot some footage, it looks jerky with ghostlike artifacts. Where am I going astray?
Thanks

Adam Lawrence · May 22nd, 2002, 09:57 AM

the only thing i can notice when shoot frame is the somewhat "jitter" when the camera pans too fast,,this is the only fualt I have noticed.

Ken Tanaka · May 22nd, 2002, 10:15 AM

Yes, quick camera movements will produce a strobing effect in frame mode, as will slow shutter speeds.

Don Donatello · May 22nd, 2002, 11:13 AM

frame mode is LESS sharp then interlace ( approx 20%) .. true progressive has more resolution then interlace video

IMO 30fps frame mode has little less stobing then when you watch FILM at 24fps on the big screen ...

next time you are at the movies notice the jitter when camera pans at 24fps ... the same distance panned at 30fps will be less jittery ...

strange that nobody complains about the jerkyness of FILM at 24fps on the big screen ??

Aaron Koolen · May 22nd, 2002, 02:58 PM

I do! :) To be honest I've only really started noticing it in the last year or so. Maybe it's the type of movies I've been seeing, I dunno. But now I see those long pans and the thing is jerky as hell ;) One thing though, when the camera does small, slower pans it doesn't seem that bad, but when I try and do something like that with an XL1s in frame mode, it still seems a lot jerky.Is there some sort of motion blur or something?

Don Donatello · May 22nd, 2002, 04:51 PM

i always shoot in frame mode at 1/60 sec ( unless i want FX of stutter) ...

on film projected at 24fps - they use a 3 bladed shutter that spins in front of the frame so the the 24fps is broken up into 72 flickers perhaps that gives illusion of it being smoother then it really is ????

Joe Redifer · May 23rd, 2002, 01:47 AM

Most working projectors today have a two bladed shutter. There are a few that have 3 bladed shutters, however.

Barry Goyette · May 23rd, 2002, 06:38 PM

As I understand it another difference between 24fps film and frame mode is that typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise.

Interesting to me is that there is substantial difference in the frame mode of the gl1 and the xl1s relative to this issue. I find almost any horizontal camera (or subject) movement causes unacceptable strobing of the movement on the Gl1. The xl1s is barely objectionable even with the quickest movements. Initially I thought this was because of the 1/60 sec maximum shutter speed of the Gl1, feeling that at 1/30 on the xl1 was introducing a small amount of blur that softened the jumpiness. But I've done some comparisons on the xl1s, and to my eyes it is actually smoother at 1/60 than at 1/30. I have no idea why.

May 29th, 2002, 08:40 AM

An importent point!

Many find frame mode strobing when recording (as the look in to the LCD-eyepiece).

Keep in mind that all LCD screens (I know of) updates the picture slower and blurs in motion. Thats why LCD monitors are bad for computer games.

So if anyone thinks that frame mode is strobing and hasn't watched it in post on an ordinary monitor. I suggest that they do that first.

Then also, if the frame mode is used for film look, the brightness is recommended to be decreased and contrast increased. These two factors are also smothing out the strobe.

Have in mind that I use XL1 Pal and can not speak for Ntsc.

Regards,

Erik T

Don Donatello · May 29th, 2002, 11:38 AM

"typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise"

i do remember back in college .. i was doing a project will alot of panning and the arri was coming out with too much strobe effect .. doing research i found that there are vertical shutters ( from top to bottom of film gate -frame) and horizontal shutters (from right to left across gate -frame) ..

the arri S and bolex had vertical shutters ... the eclair NPR had a horizontal shutter and the pans looked much smoother .. however tilt up/down were much smoother using the arri S with vertical shutter ..

Barry Goyette · May 29th, 2002, 11:56 AM

I have no experience with film cameras, my comment came from an American Cinematographer article on HBO's Band of Brothers, where they talked about switching the diagonal shutter out for a vertical (horizontal?)shutter in the battle scenes to give them a stuttery, choppy look. This effect was also used in Saving Private Ryan, for whatever its worth.

May 22nd, 2002, 06:45 AM	#1
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Shooting in frame mode Everybody seems to like frame mode, and it sounds like a good idea for sharper frames. But when I have shot some footage, it looks jerky with ghostlike artifacts. Where am I going astray? Thanks

May 22nd, 2002, 09:57 AM	#2
Adam Lawrence _redone_ Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 224	the only thing i can notice when shoot frame is the somewhat "jitter" when the camera pans too fast,,this is the only fualt I have noticed. __________________ Adam Lawrence eatdrink Media Las Vegas NV www.eatdrinkmedia.com

May 22nd, 2002, 10:15 AM	#3
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Yes, quick camera movements will produce a strobing effect in frame mode, as will slow shutter speeds. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

May 29th, 2002, 11:56 AM	#11
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	diagonal shutters I have no experience with film cameras, my comment came from an American Cinematographer article on HBO's Band of Brothers, where they talked about switching the diagonal shutter out for a vertical (horizontal?)shutter in the battle scenes to give them a stuttery, choppy look. This effect was also used in Saving Private Ryan, for whatever its worth.

May 22nd, 2002, 11:13 AM	#4
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	frame mode is LESS sharp then interlace ( approx 20%) .. true progressive has more resolution then interlace video IMO 30fps frame mode has little less stobing then when you watch FILM at 24fps on the big screen ... next time you are at the movies notice the jitter when camera pans at 24fps ... the same distance panned at 30fps will be less jittery ... strange that nobody complains about the jerkyness of FILM at 24fps on the big screen ??

May 22nd, 2002, 02:58 PM	#5
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	I do! :) To be honest I've only really started noticing it in the last year or so. Maybe it's the type of movies I've been seeing, I dunno. But now I see those long pans and the thing is jerky as hell ;) One thing though, when the camera does small, slower pans it doesn't seem that bad, but when I try and do something like that with an XL1s in frame mode, it still seems a lot jerky.Is there some sort of motion blur or something?

May 22nd, 2002, 04:51 PM	#6
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i always shoot in frame mode at 1/60 sec ( unless i want FX of stutter) ... on film projected at 24fps - they use a 3 bladed shutter that spins in front of the frame so the the 24fps is broken up into 72 flickers perhaps that gives illusion of it being smoother then it really is ????

May 23rd, 2002, 01:47 AM	#7
Joe Redifer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 290	Most working projectors today have a two bladed shutter. There are a few that have 3 bladed shutters, however.

May 23rd, 2002, 06:38 PM	#8
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	As I understand it another difference between 24fps film and frame mode is that typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise. Interesting to me is that there is substantial difference in the frame mode of the gl1 and the xl1s relative to this issue. I find almost any horizontal camera (or subject) movement causes unacceptable strobing of the movement on the Gl1. The xl1s is barely objectionable even with the quickest movements. Initially I thought this was because of the 1/60 sec maximum shutter speed of the Gl1, feeling that at 1/30 on the xl1 was introducing a small amount of blur that softened the jumpiness. But I've done some comparisons on the xl1s, and to my eyes it is actually smoother at 1/60 than at 1/30. I have no idea why.

May 29th, 2002, 08:40 AM	#9
ErikFilmcrew Posts: n/a	An importent point! Many find frame mode strobing when recording (as the look in to the LCD-eyepiece). Keep in mind that all LCD screens (I know of) updates the picture slower and blurs in motion. Thats why LCD monitors are bad for computer games. So if anyone thinks that frame mode is strobing and hasn't watched it in post on an ordinary monitor. I suggest that they do that first. Then also, if the frame mode is used for film look, the brightness is recommended to be decreased and contrast increased. These two factors are also smothing out the strobe. Have in mind that I use XL1 Pal and can not speak for Ntsc. Regards, Erik T

May 29th, 2002, 11:38 AM	#10
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	"typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise" i do remember back in college .. i was doing a project will alot of panning and the arri was coming out with too much strobe effect .. doing research i found that there are vertical shutters ( from top to bottom of film gate -frame) and horizontal shutters (from right to left across gate -frame) .. the arri S and bolex had vertical shutters ... the eclair NPR had a horizontal shutter and the pans looked much smoother .. however tilt up/down were much smoother using the arri S with vertical shutter ..