What's the 60ito24p method that gets closer to 24p FilmLook, not the 24p SinCity Look at DVinfo.net

Roberto Lanczos · June 5th, 2005, 12:05 PM

The dark side is going to shine in some people, by to have begun a new thread with a subject that has been discussed like a 3.786.071 times.

Sorry about that, but with so many guides, is easy to get lost.

All i did the last year, was read, read and read, try, try ,try, and nothing more.

Apparently no luck at all.

I'm not pretending to reach the impossible, i just want some recommendations about the method that comes closer to the real film look, cause DVfilm maker, makes DV to look like "Saving Private Ryan" and "Sin City", wich i don't entirely hate, but i don't want to compete either.

Vegas 6.
I don't even know what's going on there, it doesn't look right no matter what i do.

AfterEffects. Like 342 guides on the internet, but nothing close.

MagicBullet. The worst ever made.

Thanks in advance.

Juan Parra · June 5th, 2005, 01:02 PM

first of all, what's your definition of filmlook?
knowing that, people can point you into the right direction.

Roberto Lanczos · June 5th, 2005, 02:11 PM

I'm just looking forward to do some experiments with a method that could make dv look a little bit more, like it was shooted with the traditional shutter speed used for films.

Glenn Chan · June 5th, 2005, 10:09 PM

Now to answer your question:
Saving Private Ryan had some sections shot with a fast shutter speed (called shutter angle in film), which leads to stoby motion. Example thread on this: http://www.dvcreators.net/discuss/showthread.php?t=1847

To avoid that, you need to shoot with a proper shutter speed. It's 1/60 (1/59.97) for NTSC and 1/50th of a second for PAL.

Sin City was shot on ?modified? high definition camera(s), not film.

2- As Juan asked, what is your definition of film look? Different people have different ideas of what is is. See Define/quantify film look
Is it:
A- It looks like you shot your footage on 35mm film... including technical 'deficiencies' like film grain.
OR
B- It looks like you had Hollywood production values. It looks like the films you see in movie theatres.

Kurth Bousman · June 6th, 2005, 01:01 PM

look at Nattresses filter set - it's very reasonably priced and imho works good but you need a mac. Short of software solutions , shoot progressive . Short of that , shoot film. That provides the best filmlook of all. Kurth

Jed Williamson · June 6th, 2005, 01:57 PM

SD 60i to 24p to look like it was shot "real 24p" is impossible.

You can get kinda there with the tools you already mentioned vegas, dvfilm & magic bullet.

OPen water, The fast runner were shot 60i & transferred to film.

Here is an article about the process. The best quote: "you definitely get what you pay for. If it’s super cheap, that should be suspect;"

http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/44/dv.html

Ash Greyson · June 6th, 2005, 02:00 PM

I have been able to get a film look IN CAMERA for years with the camera XL series. Film look is not just a plug-in or an effect, it is a STYLE of shooting, editing and SOMETIMES making it 24P or color correcting.

It is a false notion often perpetuated that there is some magic (pardon the pun) post tool to make video look like film. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Film look is achieved 90% by camera operation and environment.

Step #1 for film look is controlling your depth of field
Step #2 is controlling the light with the manual adjustments IN the camera
Step #3 is manually controlling the focus in a shallow DOF environment
Step #4 is manually controlling the shutter for the appropriate LOOK (crispy, smooth, etc.)
Step #5 is controlling the camera MOVES to be more cinematic

Notice, none of those are in post and no post program will be able to create the same effect easily. Film look starts BEFORE you turn on your camera... not in the edit bay =o) Hope this helps....

ash =o)

Roberto Lanczos · June 9th, 2005, 01:13 AM

Thanks for all that information.

Anyway.... i was just asking for the most used technique to go from 60ito24p. I don't see how my definition of film look is necessary for that.

Like many of you said,

everyone has a different opinion about what film look really is, and i guess some of you beleive that some methods come closer to what we are looking for, (in terms of frame rate, and definition).

Claude Isbell · June 11th, 2005, 08:21 PM

I think it's time for sanction.

Chris Hurd · June 12th, 2005, 02:36 PM

Sanctioned. Impolite rudeness (and responses to it) have been edited out -- tech discussion left in place.

Claude Isbell · June 12th, 2005, 05:57 PM

Thank's Chris.

Jon Fordham · June 15th, 2005, 01:42 PM

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...778#post320778

Roberto Lanczos · June 16th, 2005, 10:01 PM

Thanks a lot for that Jon.

Simon Wyndham · June 17th, 2005, 08:01 AM

I would say the filmlook is this;

1. Turn down the sharpness on your camera. I cannot emphasise this enough, and yet it is the most completely ignored aspect. 0 sharpness setting on most cameras is still waaaaaay over enhanced. Go well into the minus's, Film doesn't have edge enhancement. If you need to increase sharpness do it in post. By turning down the detail on your camera you are NOT, repeat NOT getting rid of detail, just artifical enhancement. This is THE first step of all steps. Not only will your picture be much more natural, but you'll make things a heck of a lot easier on the codecs and help to minimise and reduce artefacts such as mosquito noise.

2. Shoot 24p (NTSC) or 25p (PAL).

3. If you have a true cinegamma mode on your camera use it. By 'true' cinegamma I mean one that increases dynamic range, and, importantly, has a very smooth roll-off in the highlights. I believe the DVX100a has such a feature. I don't know the menus of the Z1, but if it has an adustable knee you might want to play around with that with the relevant charts and a waveform (DV Rack will help you here).

4. Compose your shots and move you camera in a more cinematic way. Use wider angle lenses for wide shots for a 'bigger' look. Crane shots, steadicam shots, dolly shots, short jib shots, all add to making things more cinematic. Also never underestimate handheld work for that '24' look. But make sure you know what you are doing. This can either be very good, or very bad. Use it in context, and use depth of field as much as you can to isolate your subjects in such circumstances. However, it isn't all about camera moves. See my last point about lighting.

5. Filmlook is not about how shots have high light/dark contrast. Filmstock is made to account for the post processes needed (some of which naturally introduce more contrast into the image). So raw film looks quite flat with fairly grey blacks. This relates to what I said about true cinegamma modes on cameras. You will get a flat image. Then you need to simulate what will happen to a film when it is processed, colourised etc. But don't go overboard on adding huge amounts of contrast, There are plenty of films out there that have very natural contrast. Why? See below.

5. Lighting. Why have I put this last? Well, let me ask you a question. If somebody shoots film using natural light, such as many of the shots in Bourne Identity, or a Super 8 film does it suddenly stop looking like film? Same goes for cinematography. If somebody with no experience starts using a 35mm film camera will it stop looking like film? No.

So, for filmlook you need to get more natural sharpness, then the motion characteristic, then you need to get the highlight handling and dynamic range. You want to aim to make a 'film negative'. Yes, your pocture from a video camera won't actually be a negative image, in other words you want to create a picture that gives you as many elements as possible to work your post colour correction flow in the same way as a film colourist.

How the final product looks, what its final contrast, saturation etc looks like will be down to personal preference. But make no mistake this part of the production workflow is nothing to do with the filmlook.

June 12th, 2005, 02:36 PM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Sanctioned. Impolite rudeness (and responses to it) have been edited out -- tech discussion left in place. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

June 15th, 2005, 01:42 PM	#12
Jon Fordham Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 242	http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...778#post320778 __________________ Jon Fordham Director of Photography www.jonfordham.com

June 5th, 2005, 12:05 PM	#1
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	What's the 60ito24p method that gets closer to 24p FilmLook, not the 24p SinCity Look The dark side is going to shine in some people, by to have begun a new thread with a subject that has been discussed like a 3.786.071 times. Sorry about that, but with so many guides, is easy to get lost. All i did the last year, was read, read and read, try, try ,try, and nothing more. Apparently no luck at all. I'm not pretending to reach the impossible, i just want some recommendations about the method that comes closer to the real film look, cause DVfilm maker, makes DV to look like "Saving Private Ryan" and "Sin City", wich i don't entirely hate, but i don't want to compete either. Vegas 6. I don't even know what's going on there, it doesn't look right no matter what i do. AfterEffects. Like 342 guides on the internet, but nothing close. MagicBullet. The worst ever made. Thanks in advance.

June 5th, 2005, 01:02 PM	#2
Juan Parra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 110	first of all, what's your definition of filmlook? knowing that, people can point you into the right direction. __________________ Juan Parra

June 5th, 2005, 02:11 PM	#3
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	I'm just looking forward to do some experiments with a method that could make dv look a little bit more, like it was shooted with the traditional shutter speed used for films.

June 5th, 2005, 10:09 PM	#4
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Now to answer your question: Saving Private Ryan had some sections shot with a fast shutter speed (called shutter angle in film), which leads to stoby motion. Example thread on this: http://www.dvcreators.net/discuss/showthread.php?t=1847 To avoid that, you need to shoot with a proper shutter speed. It's 1/60 (1/59.97) for NTSC and 1/50th of a second for PAL. Sin City was shot on ?modified? high definition camera(s), not film. 2- As Juan asked, what is your definition of film look? Different people have different ideas of what is is. See Define/quantify film look Is it: A- It looks like you shot your footage on 35mm film... including technical 'deficiencies' like film grain. OR B- It looks like you had Hollywood production values. It looks like the films you see in movie theatres.

June 6th, 2005, 01:01 PM	#5
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	look at Nattresses filter set - it's very reasonably priced and imho works good but you need a mac. Short of software solutions , shoot progressive . Short of that , shoot film. That provides the best filmlook of all. Kurth

June 6th, 2005, 01:57 PM	#6
Jed Williamson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 175	SD 60i to 24p to look like it was shot "real 24p" is impossible. You can get kinda there with the tools you already mentioned vegas, dvfilm & magic bullet. OPen water, The fast runner were shot 60i & transferred to film. Here is an article about the process. The best quote: "you definitely get what you pay for. If it’s super cheap, that should be suspect;" http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/44/dv.html

June 6th, 2005, 02:00 PM	#7
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I have been able to get a film look IN CAMERA for years with the camera XL series. Film look is not just a plug-in or an effect, it is a STYLE of shooting, editing and SOMETIMES making it 24P or color correcting. It is a false notion often perpetuated that there is some magic (pardon the pun) post tool to make video look like film. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Film look is achieved 90% by camera operation and environment. Step #1 for film look is controlling your depth of field Step #2 is controlling the light with the manual adjustments IN the camera Step #3 is manually controlling the focus in a shallow DOF environment Step #4 is manually controlling the shutter for the appropriate LOOK (crispy, smooth, etc.) Step #5 is controlling the camera MOVES to be more cinematic Notice, none of those are in post and no post program will be able to create the same effect easily. Film look starts BEFORE you turn on your camera... not in the edit bay =o) Hope this helps.... ash =o)

June 9th, 2005, 01:13 AM	#8
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Thanks for all that information. Anyway.... i was just asking for the most used technique to go from 60ito24p. I don't see how my definition of film look is necessary for that. Like many of you said, everyone has a different opinion about what film look really is, and i guess some of you beleive that some methods come closer to what we are looking for, (in terms of frame rate, and definition).

June 11th, 2005, 08:21 PM	#9
Claude Isbell Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ny,ny Posts: 52	I think it's time for sanction.

June 12th, 2005, 05:57 PM	#11
Claude Isbell Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ny,ny Posts: 52	Thank's Chris.

June 16th, 2005, 10:01 PM	#13
Roberto Lanczos Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 113	Thanks a lot for that Jon.

June 17th, 2005, 08:01 AM	#14
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I would say the filmlook is this; 1. Turn down the sharpness on your camera. I cannot emphasise this enough, and yet it is the most completely ignored aspect. 0 sharpness setting on most cameras is still waaaaaay over enhanced. Go well into the minus's, Film doesn't have edge enhancement. If you need to increase sharpness do it in post. By turning down the detail on your camera you are NOT, repeat NOT getting rid of detail, just artifical enhancement. This is THE first step of all steps. Not only will your picture be much more natural, but you'll make things a heck of a lot easier on the codecs and help to minimise and reduce artefacts such as mosquito noise. 2. Shoot 24p (NTSC) or 25p (PAL). 3. If you have a true cinegamma mode on your camera use it. By 'true' cinegamma I mean one that increases dynamic range, and, importantly, has a very smooth roll-off in the highlights. I believe the DVX100a has such a feature. I don't know the menus of the Z1, but if it has an adustable knee you might want to play around with that with the relevant charts and a waveform (DV Rack will help you here). 4. Compose your shots and move you camera in a more cinematic way. Use wider angle lenses for wide shots for a 'bigger' look. Crane shots, steadicam shots, dolly shots, short jib shots, all add to making things more cinematic. Also never underestimate handheld work for that '24' look. But make sure you know what you are doing. This can either be very good, or very bad. Use it in context, and use depth of field as much as you can to isolate your subjects in such circumstances. However, it isn't all about camera moves. See my last point about lighting. 5. Filmlook is not about how shots have high light/dark contrast. Filmstock is made to account for the post processes needed (some of which naturally introduce more contrast into the image). So raw film looks quite flat with fairly grey blacks. This relates to what I said about true cinegamma modes on cameras. You will get a flat image. Then you need to simulate what will happen to a film when it is processed, colourised etc. But don't go overboard on adding huge amounts of contrast, There are plenty of films out there that have very natural contrast. Why? See below. 5. Lighting. Why have I put this last? Well, let me ask you a question. If somebody shoots film using natural light, such as many of the shots in Bourne Identity, or a Super 8 film does it suddenly stop looking like film? Same goes for cinematography. If somebody with no experience starts using a 35mm film camera will it stop looking like film? No. So, for filmlook you need to get more natural sharpness, then the motion characteristic, then you need to get the highlight handling and dynamic range. You want to aim to make a 'film negative'. Yes, your pocture from a video camera won't actually be a negative image, in other words you want to create a picture that gives you as many elements as possible to work your post colour correction flow in the same way as a film colourist. How the final product looks, what its final contrast, saturation etc looks like will be down to personal preference. But make no mistake this part of the production workflow is nothing to do with the filmlook.