Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

[Greg Smith]

Eye level, chest level, just words, it doesn't matter. My point was that it's a general-purpose, objective, neutral, unchallenging point of view that never varied throughout the video. You need to change the camera height and angle for different shots both to illustrate the subject better and to add interest to the visuals. You are thinking two-dimensionally about camera and subject placement, but it's a three-dimensional space. Use that to your advantage.

[Ryan Elder]

Okay sure, I just didn't think I was the director since I was trying to go by what they want more. But if I am the director to, I can try to change my approach and say this is what we are doing, and they have to be able to get each take done the same, if that's better.

I don't think I can control what they wear though, or the location it's shot in, since it's their promotional video. As for changing the heigh, if I do that, it's hard to see the arm placement though, if I go too far down. Overhead might work though. What's more important, that the viewer clearly see the move, or the position of the camera being different?

As for three dimensional space, I don't have a lot of space, if they keep changing their positions, without wanting to choreograph it all out first. If I tell them we should choreograph it all out to make the shots more interesting, they say that this type of martial arts, cannot be choreographed because then it's fake, or it's changing what its about then. I think mainly I'm the type who has to stick to the plan, and we cannot change it all these different things just before shooting. I need to stick to the previous shots discussed. Even though it was said that storyboards are not necessary I think I still need to see drawing of the moves so I know the best way to shoot them though.

[Josh Bass]

Part of the nature of jobs like these is the “political” side of it. You have to find diplomatic ways to tell them they are dead wrong about certain things and that they are making choices that are not in their best interest when they insist on not wearing uniforms or planning the shoot out more. Many times you can do exactly what you are told and STILL be wrong because the final product is bad and youre the one they blame. Stop them from making bad decisions before its too late, shoot it well and you become the hero.

The simple fact is that these are complex moves and without multiple cams you will have to change angle etc. to get all the different shots you need to show all the specifics of the moves. They THINK this should be simple and that youre trying to do too much when you suggest that, and they are wrong. They dont know anything about the needs of video production. It is often painfully slow/tedious and sometimes every little thing has to be talked through. In this case that means each step of each move. This can take hours per each move and thats just the way it is.

If they refuse to listen to all that, I’d drop the whole thing cause theyre not gonna get a usable product the way theyre going now and youre going to be left wondering what you did wrong when you followed their wishes to the letter. Some clients just cannot be worked with. Over time you learn to recognize these during initial conversations and you say “I’m sorry I dont think I can help you.”

[Brian Drysdale]

If they're going for a "hippy" or "grunge" look, perhaps you should thinking about shooting in a less formal manner and use a "looser" (not shot size) style that matches them.

If this is just a promo video, what's the duration?

[Ryan Elder]

I am not sure what the duration of the video would be, but I am hypothesizing maybe 5-6 minutes based on the material they have talked about so far. And yeah I can try to get them to do what I think is best. They were quite surprised at the number of shots I wanted to do cause they just wanted to nail it in a couple, where as I wanted to do six which they found surprising.

[Josh Bass]

One of the things about being political like I mentioned above is trying different tactics to get through to people who don't "get it".

You can try telling your client that if this is for the audience, they need to think of how the audience will see it...do we need to see what this hand is doing at this point? Then we need a separate shot of that. Do we need to see footwork? Then we need shots of that. Tell them to think of themselves watching the video as beginners and what they would need to see to be crystal clear on the moves. That becomes your shot list. Of course if one camera setup will show several things at once then you don't as many angles.

[Ryan Elder]

Sure thanks, I was actually thinking of saying that at the next meeting, it's for the audience. I will also try to see what can be done in the same shot, once I get more of a details list of moves they want to show. I think some of the more specific ones will go well, as oppose to the more generalized ones so far.

[John Nantz]

Ryan -

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Okay sure, I just didn't think I was the director since I was trying to go by what they want more. But if I am the director to, I can try to change my approach and say this is what we are doing, and they have to be able to get each take done the same, if that's better.

Realize it is your name that will be connected with this video and it's your reputation.
If this is an ad or and instructional video (I've tried to find out who the intended audience is to no avail) then you can leave your name off of the credits. It was hoped, or I was hoping, that this video would not only be educational but can also be used as a reference.

Who is the intended audience?
It's beginning to appear that it is an instructional video and not an ad or a promotional video. If that is the case then it needs to be presented as a teacher would present it, and targeted at a slow learner.

Read Pauls post again:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

That's the problem. Ryan clearly is NOT directing, he's letting the talent direct him as a fly on the wall. He's never going to produce what they want, because they don't understand any of this, and are wrapped up in the activity. If they are paying, then they probably won't because you won't have captured what they thought you were capturing. Clearly there's no audience for this. They may be very skilled in the martial art, but are totally awful at teaching. None of what you are shooting will work in my humble view. There are no production values at all, and it's a totally misaligned product. Who are the customers/consumers? What do they NEED to see and hear? Can anyone watch the video and replicate any of the moves?

Really obvious stuff even for a non-expert viewer. I've shot a few dance tutorials. You capture the feet, and start slow, then it builds up, then it goes to normal speed and I as the cameraman could not do it. I was told this was just because I didn't understand dance. No it was because they assumed people's level and achievement and progression speed - and messed up badly. They forgot the communications aspect. Training a room of martial arts students is easy, and it's two-way communications. The teacher KNOWS if the students have got it by their expressions, and can go back or repeat as necessary. In this video they assume the audience is with them, and make no allowances for what will happen if they cannot keep up, or see where a foot went, or how the arms got from A to B. They are just not good teachers for distance learning. They're clearly good at the martial art, but have never done any teacher training in one-way comms. Your job is to make sure communication is successful. If they cannot do it, then your framing and angles need to answer EVERY question a viewer has. If you are in the wrong position, they cannot learn because they cannot see it. You need to look at edits very carefully - a weight on the left foot move that in the edit shifts to right foot is bad. Can they repeat moves identically to even allow editing? Continuity will be very, very difficult.

[Brian Drysdale]

You seem obsessed about the shots, the problem with video is that it doesn't know what it is and who it's aimed at, Unless you know that you can't tell how to shoot it.

Is it a promotional video or an instructional video?

At the moment it's neither.

[Ryan Elder]

I was told it was a promotional video, but they are the ones that are doing the talking and deciding what is in the video though. As for my name being on it, I didn't think my name was going to be on the video though, as it's a promotional video for their website.

[Josh Bass]

They mean you'll be attached to it, as in "This is what this Ryan guy is capable of". Your reputation, your quality of work, etc. This is what people will think of your work, in other words. Meaning you want it to come out well as that makes you look good, and vice versa if it's bad.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh yeah for sure I definitely want to make it as good as I can. If I cannot though, I won't show it to anyone.

[Josh Bass]

Yes but THEY might.

[Ryan Elder]

True but I am not sure what to do about that.

[John Nantz]

The situation is they want a “promotional video” and, understandably, they want it to be able to show certain things. Hey, it’s their money and our (read: “Your”) job is to make them happy, but there are two ways to do that: First, do what they want (even if it isn’t good), and/ro Second, to produce something that will bring in the business. (There may be more ways but, “disclaimer”, for brevity, that’s my summary).

“Money talks” and it is their money, plus, we want it. Right? (We need it to buy food ‘cuz we like to eat and there’s this gimbal we want to buy).

Produce something they want: Now there’s the rub. They know what they want. Kinda. At least they think so. But from where we sit it doesn’t appear that the directions they’re giving is going to give ‘em what they REALLY want. So what is the video business supposed to do?

Since the client here appears to be a bit heavy handed, in the sense of dictating things, and we don’t want to queer the gig, then about all that’s left is to offer suggestions and cajole them about other ways of doing things and see if they accept. If they do, then great! (For that moment at least. Breath a sigh of relief.). If not, then go ahead and do it their way as best as possible. Yea, we know it hurts, but we want their money … and future business (maybe!).

Read Josh Bass' comment:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

One of the things about being political like I mentioned above is trying different tactics to get through to people who don't "get it".

You can try telling your client that if this is for the audience, they need to think of how the audience will see it...do we need to see what this hand is doing at this point? Then we need a separate shot of that. Do we need to see footwork? Then we need shots of that. Tell them to think of themselves watching the video as beginners and what they would need to see to be crystal clear on the moves. That becomes your shot list. Of course if one camera setup will show several things at once then you don't as many angles.

The sayin’ is “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make ‘em drink!”

There is some good news though. One more gig done and we’re learning some new things, so that’s a plus. Every gig is going to be different so we walk away with the accumulated knowledge (lessons learned) and kit (paid with their money) so it will be a big plus.

Okay guys, this is just one person’s take. Calling this the “Make love, not war” approach.