Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 04:04 AM

I'm not sure why you object to shooting hand held, good handheld is no worse than some of the gimbal shots you've used in your films. It's also used by many of the top feature film directors.

This is a simple film. if you can't manage something like this, you're going to be very limited in what you can direct in the drama world.

Paul R Johnson · January 24th, 2020, 08:57 AM

This is just wrong Ryan. If you cannot think on your feet to be able to do this simple project, maybe you need to just stop. You don't have the kit or the skills for something quite basic, so your scripted stuff will be even harder. This is madness. I think most of us learned with one camera and developed our hand-held ability that grew gradually. You want to use tools but are not willing to spend time developing even basic skills.

I fear we are wasting our time now. You reject all our advice if it differs from your already set in stone plan.

You must perhaps start to consider if you have the right career in mind? Frankly, I think many people have dropped away from trying to help you because it is clear its pointless. We are getting nowhere.

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 11:32 AM

Oh well, I was told not to do handheld before, because in past projects, I was told it looked bad, and not to use it.

Well so far I find these projects that are less scripted with the shots less planned out to be more difficult. But when working with actors before, they were far better at taking direction in comparison. Plus when I think on my feet it presents other problems.

The martial artists, need their full bodies to be shown, so I cannot set any markers for them, without them being seen then. I am not sure what to do then, to try to keep them from going out of frame. Also I don't know how they are going to move, since they keep moving differently when responding to each other. I guess I just feel that scripted projects with actors are more predictable in my experience so far.

Roger Gunkel · January 24th, 2020, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

You must perhaps start to consider if you have the right career in mind? Frankly, I think many people have dropped away from trying to help you because it is clear its pointless. We are getting nowhere.

I think many decided that weeks ago and have just given up trying to help.

Roger

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 11:36 AM

Sorry for making it sound like I am rejecting advice. I don't mean to to do that. I really appreciate all the advice. I just find that some of the suggestions have other potential problems in them, that need to be addressed before proceeding that's all. Is that bad of me?

Alright, well if I need to take my own initiative, from now on, I am going to make sure I have the perfect master shot of them, and they have to get everything right in one take. Because I cannot get any matches in closer up shots. So I am going to get them to do perfect masters. They will be further away in the masters to stay in frame, but hopefully that's okay.

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 11:51 AM

There are no problems in this video that an average director can't solve

To expect a precise match on every take in something like this is naive, however, given the replay resources that even the average amateur has these days it's not insurmountable.

We used to do this kind of stuff on film, where there was no replay.

You must've been using poor hand held shots or using it inappropriately, because it's pretty standard tool in film making.

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 12:03 PM

Oh okay thanks. Well it's not that they have to match it precisely, but I find that a lot of the differences are quite obvious.

For example a few times, in the missmatches they are literally on opposite sides all of a sudden, cause they turn themselves around sometimes.

And they do not want to do more than two takes if I ask. I try to really push for it, but they say no, and want to see the footage played back, and then they say it's fine after. I don't think they realize it may not turn out that way in the editing. Unless they seem perfectly happy with one shot takes. I also really think I could do a lot more if they and the location, were more available than 90 minutes per shoot day.

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 12:08 PM

It's your job as the director to tell them you need more, if they refuse, since they're not paying you, tell them there's no point in continuing, pack your gear and walk out. If they're serious about the video they call you back, if not, you're better leaving.

Paul R Johnson · January 24th, 2020, 12:09 PM

Some clients would not recognise a terrible take as long as the people in it did not fall over!

People have never told you not to do handheld - they tell you that it needs practice. Until I bought a gimbal I have been handholding for years and years. I'm really unimpressed with what the gimbal can do for me. Tripod 1st, shoulder mount 2nd and hand holding 3rd. Stick it on wide angle, then move in closer if wobble and shake happens because of longer focal lengths.

You are making excuses over and over again. Working with actors has driven you mad in all your topics, now this is suddenly easier than working with two martial arts people? The common denominator in all this is you Ryan. You seem to have no affinity with making movies at all. Everything goes wrong, nothing goes right and everyone else is to blame. This is just silly.

Josh Bass · January 24th, 2020, 12:11 PM

Regarding walking away from this project, whats in it for Ryan at this point?

Money? Nope.

Reel material? Nope.

Experience? he doesnt want to do more of this type of work so experience for what?

Fun? Doesnt sound like it.

If he walks away mid project and his rep suffers, does it matter? Hes not looking to do more anyway so who is badmouthing him going to affect?

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Some clients would not recognise a terrible take as long as the people in it did not fall over!

People have never told you not to do handheld - they tell you that it needs practice. Until I bought a gimbal I have been handholding for years and years. I'm really unimpressed with what the gimbal can do for me. Tripod 1st, shoulder mount 2nd and hand holding 3rd. Stick it on wide angle, then move in closer if wobble and shake happens because of longer focal lengths.

You are making excuses over and over again. Working with actors has driven you mad in all your topics, now this is suddenly easier than working with two martial arts people? The common denominator in all this is you Ryan. You seem to have no affinity with making movies at all. Everything goes wrong, nothing goes right and everyone else is to blame. This is just silly.

Sorry I don't mean to blame others, it's just they tell me it's good and want to move on. But I will do my best to make it better for the next shoots.

But as far as no affinity goes, I was told that the one short film I made Battle Damaged Souls was much better than all my other work. So I feel I made some progress based on what people were saying there.

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 12:50 PM

However, best be aware that "Battle Damaged Souls" is a monologue, that's very different to actors interacting with each other and complex relationships on screen.

If you want to get this martial arts video finished, just shoot a wide shot for every set up, cut them together and leave it there. That's the client is always right, even if they're totally wrong approach that you sometimes have to take.

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 01:29 PM

Okay thanks. Another thing that is different is that with the martial arts video, they want to show off the moves, which means trying to cut to close up for parts that are not as well seen.

Where as a fictional story, audiences don't care to see how the moves are done, so I don't have to show everything, which I am not use to. I think for the next shoot I am going to go in without storyboards, and whatever they do, try to come up with new shots on the fly. It's just I fear that will not turn out well without a plan. But maybe it might be better.

Brian Drysdale · January 24th, 2020, 02:08 PM

Tell them that unless you do the close shots they want so the viewers can see the moves, there's no point in just doing the wide, Again, be prepared to walk away, there's no point in being gentle about things,

You're wasting people's time here because you're not doing what a director or even the camera operator will do when shooting these things.

Ryan Elder · January 24th, 2020, 04:21 PM

Okay thanks. I will do that.

The thing about doing the fights in one take though, is that I want to cut out the fluff, or the parts that are not as good. So that is why I want something to cut to from different angles of course. However, before I was told the cuts are awkward. How do you cut out a section of fluff, without the cut being awkward?

January 24th, 2020, 04:04 AM	#556
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? I'm not sure why you object to shooting hand held, good handheld is no worse than some of the gimbal shots you've used in your films. It's also used by many of the top feature film directors. This is a simple film. if you can't manage something like this, you're going to be very limited in what you can direct in the drama world.

January 24th, 2020, 08:57 AM	#557
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? This is just wrong Ryan. If you cannot think on your feet to be able to do this simple project, maybe you need to just stop. You don't have the kit or the skills for something quite basic, so your scripted stuff will be even harder. This is madness. I think most of us learned with one camera and developed our hand-held ability that grew gradually. You want to use tools but are not willing to spend time developing even basic skills. I fear we are wasting our time now. You reject all our advice if it differs from your already set in stone plan. You must perhaps start to consider if you have the right career in mind? Frankly, I think many people have dropped away from trying to help you because it is clear its pointless. We are getting nowhere.

January 24th, 2020, 11:32 AM	#558
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh well, I was told not to do handheld before, because in past projects, I was told it looked bad, and not to use it. Well so far I find these projects that are less scripted with the shots less planned out to be more difficult. But when working with actors before, they were far better at taking direction in comparison. Plus when I think on my feet it presents other problems. The martial artists, need their full bodies to be shown, so I cannot set any markers for them, without them being seen then. I am not sure what to do then, to try to keep them from going out of frame. Also I don't know how they are going to move, since they keep moving differently when responding to each other. I guess I just feel that scripted projects with actors are more predictable in my experience so far.

January 24th, 2020, 11:36 AM	#560
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Sorry for making it sound like I am rejecting advice. I don't mean to to do that. I really appreciate all the advice. I just find that some of the suggestions have other potential problems in them, that need to be addressed before proceeding that's all. Is that bad of me? Alright, well if I need to take my own initiative, from now on, I am going to make sure I have the perfect master shot of them, and they have to get everything right in one take. Because I cannot get any matches in closer up shots. So I am going to get them to do perfect masters. They will be further away in the masters to stay in frame, but hopefully that's okay.

January 24th, 2020, 11:51 AM	#561
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? There are no problems in this video that an average director can't solve To expect a precise match on every take in something like this is naive, however, given the replay resources that even the average amateur has these days it's not insurmountable. We used to do this kind of stuff on film, where there was no replay. You must've been using poor hand held shots or using it inappropriately, because it's pretty standard tool in film making.

January 24th, 2020, 12:03 PM	#562
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. Well it's not that they have to match it precisely, but I find that a lot of the differences are quite obvious. For example a few times, in the missmatches they are literally on opposite sides all of a sudden, cause they turn themselves around sometimes. And they do not want to do more than two takes if I ask. I try to really push for it, but they say no, and want to see the footage played back, and then they say it's fine after. I don't think they realize it may not turn out that way in the editing. Unless they seem perfectly happy with one shot takes. I also really think I could do a lot more if they and the location, were more available than 90 minutes per shoot day.

January 24th, 2020, 12:08 PM	#563
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? It's your job as the director to tell them you need more, if they refuse, since they're not paying you, tell them there's no point in continuing, pack your gear and walk out. If they're serious about the video they call you back, if not, you're better leaving.

January 24th, 2020, 12:09 PM	#564
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Some clients would not recognise a terrible take as long as the people in it did not fall over! People have never told you not to do handheld - they tell you that it needs practice. Until I bought a gimbal I have been handholding for years and years. I'm really unimpressed with what the gimbal can do for me. Tripod 1st, shoulder mount 2nd and hand holding 3rd. Stick it on wide angle, then move in closer if wobble and shake happens because of longer focal lengths. You are making excuses over and over again. Working with actors has driven you mad in all your topics, now this is suddenly easier than working with two martial arts people? The common denominator in all this is you Ryan. You seem to have no affinity with making movies at all. Everything goes wrong, nothing goes right and everyone else is to blame. This is just silly.

January 24th, 2020, 12:11 PM	#565
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Regarding walking away from this project, whats in it for Ryan at this point? Money? Nope. Reel material? Nope. Experience? he doesnt want to do more of this type of work so experience for what? Fun? Doesnt sound like it. If he walks away mid project and his rep suffers, does it matter? Hes not looking to do more anyway so who is badmouthing him going to affect? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 24th, 2020, 12:50 PM	#567
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? However, best be aware that "Battle Damaged Souls" is a monologue, that's very different to actors interacting with each other and complex relationships on screen. If you want to get this martial arts video finished, just shoot a wide shot for every set up, cut them together and leave it there. That's the client is always right, even if they're totally wrong approach that you sometimes have to take.

January 24th, 2020, 01:29 PM	#568
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks. Another thing that is different is that with the martial arts video, they want to show off the moves, which means trying to cut to close up for parts that are not as well seen. Where as a fictional story, audiences don't care to see how the moves are done, so I don't have to show everything, which I am not use to. I think for the next shoot I am going to go in without storyboards, and whatever they do, try to come up with new shots on the fly. It's just I fear that will not turn out well without a plan. But maybe it might be better. Last edited by Ryan Elder; January 24th, 2020 at 02:03 PM.

January 24th, 2020, 02:08 PM	#569
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Tell them that unless you do the close shots they want so the viewers can see the moves, there's no point in just doing the wide, Again, be prepared to walk away, there's no point in being gentle about things, You're wasting people's time here because you're not doing what a director or even the camera operator will do when shooting these things.

January 24th, 2020, 04:21 PM	#570
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks. I will do that. The thing about doing the fights in one take though, is that I want to cut out the fluff, or the parts that are not as good. So that is why I want something to cut to from different angles of course. However, before I was told the cuts are awkward. How do you cut out a section of fluff, without the cut being awkward?