Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Brian Drysdale · January 6th, 2020, 03:01 PM

Usually on a feature film you have a standard set of grip equipment like a dolly and accessories for the entire shoot, plus the standard set of camera gear and lights that will stay on the shoot. You can then add in some more specialist gear. like camera cranes for a certain number of days. You then hope for a ball park figure, no matter what you work out, you won't have enough in the budget. so you either hope for a great deal from the rental company or drop stuff off the list.

If you don't know what the gear is and what the extras you require to have a workable piece of kit, you are working in the dark.

Ryan Elder · January 6th, 2020, 03:03 PM

Oh okay thanks. Well I try to come up with shots, I know I can get with what I already have budgeted. Like the gimbal for example. Only to be told that a gimbal cannot get those shots, etc. So it would be easier if I knew which shot would require which piece of equipment for budgeting. Is there a way to figure it out or to tell?

Josh Bass · January 6th, 2020, 03:08 PM

Look...you know how much money you have available to spend. You can consult rental houses and production listings of dolly grips, dollies, stedicam operators, ronins (or whatever nice gimbal), sliders, etc. and see what's feasible.

If I told you a professional stedicam operator was $2000USD (actual price in Houston, who knows in your area) a day, would that rule that option out? Probably. If a Fisher dolly is $400 a day, and you need a dolly grip (maybe another $450/day) to push it, would that rule that out? Probably.

If you insist on planning this way, maybe figure out what everything ELSE is going to cost (actors, food, locations, other essential crew, post, etc. ) and figure out how much you have left over. I guess that would be your equipment budget. Prioritize what you HAVE to have and can't beg/borrow/steal. If it's $2000 left over for gear or something, then you have limited options for what can be had for that over a three week period or however long you plan to take to shoot.

I'm not an expert, maybe this is all wrong, just trying to help you find different approaches to not go in circles as you have been for at least year now.

Robert Rodriguez is an indie hero and did all kinds of stuff to get El Mariachi made for $7000 or whatever, ON FILM no less.

Evil Dead guys have some shots that were done by mounting the cam to a long plank and just having two guys run with it to get cool moving shots.

Just fart around with whatever you actually have at hand right now. Trying pushing cam in a wheel chair. Put a go pro on a fishing pole. Literally whatever works, works. If it looks good it is good. Audience will never know how you did it and won't care.

I did a music video about obnoxious cyclists that cried out for lots of car/bike interaction stunt shots. Obviously super dangerous to do nonprofessionally. Thought about greenscreen, trick angles, finally settled on doing all that stuff with toys/action figures. It's quirky, aesthetically interesting, fit our vibe as a humor band. WHATEVER WORKS.

Brian Drysdale · January 6th, 2020, 03:38 PM

There are cheap ways to do simplified versions of shots, but don't expect all the bells and whistles in camera moves that a full blown Hollywood feature can do. Although, you'd be surprised how quickly their grips can improvise a shot with what's available on the set.

The cost of the actors is a major cost and it can take up a large percentage of the budget, even on a Hollywood feature.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 6th, 2020, 04:32 PM

All of us are trying to help you but you really have to face some hard questions.

Honestly I can't see how you are going raise any significant amount of money. Have you tried because I can't see anyone besides your family and relatives giving you money. Do you have wealthy relatives? Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't feel good if my mom or grand dad gave me like $5,000 and I proceed lose all their money. Are you prepared live under the burden that other people's money rides on your ability to make a success of this? The more money you raise, the more sophisticated you can get but like wise the more money you risk loosing, the higher the expectations and the more pressure.

Can you really tell us how much money you could realistically raise? How much of your own money are you willing to put into this? What's the point of planning years on end for something you can't afford. This isn't a short that you film with your friends and there are no consequences if nothing comes of it.

Ryan Elder · January 6th, 2020, 05:04 PM

Okay thanks for the help. Right now I have 50K to use, and can try to raise more.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 6th, 2020, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Okay thanks for the help. Right now I have 50K to use, and can try to raise more.

I think that's a lot of money, maybe not compared to Hollywood features, but that's a huge step up from virtually free shorts with your friends. That's enough to afford cinematic equipment that's been discussed.

Brian Drysdale · January 6th, 2020, 05:36 PM

However, in feature films terms it's still a low budget film, so you can't splash too much cash on things and you may still end up with at least some people working for free.

Josh Bass · January 6th, 2020, 05:39 PM

As I said before, at budgets that "low" you have stretch the dollars and only use them where needed for max value. I don't have personal experience but there are books and probably blogs, interviews, videos, etc. about what can be gotten for cheap or free and where you have to spend decent money not to get garbage results.

I wish Charles Papert still posted here...all these things would be right up his alley.

Ryan Elder · January 6th, 2020, 06:14 PM

Oh okay. And it's not like I want to do a lot of hugely extravagant shots. But I don't want every shot to be so very restricted either.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 6th, 2020, 06:14 PM

Based on the direction this conversation was taking earlier it sounded like one of those budget buster specials where you borrow your friends Zhiyun Crane as a substitute for all the dolly/slider shots.

Ryan Elder · January 6th, 2020, 06:17 PM

Well if it won't substitute then I can get either a tripod dolly with tracks, or a slider if that's better.

Paul R Johnson · January 7th, 2020, 01:25 AM

Dolly or Slider, if that's better????

The ENTIRE point Ryan, is that you stop asking questions in response to questions. Only you know if it's the most appropriate solution to a shot setup - we have no idea.

Make your own mind up! Does it matter which you go for if your idea comes to fruition. Is it better?

Frankly - as a producer it's down to money. $1000 for a ten second shot. As Producer it will be overspend, as a Director a sensible spending of limited funds. As the DP, a solution to a problem. As the grip with a bad back and little patience, a terrible decision. If you wear too many hats your brain overheats.

Brian Drysdale · January 7th, 2020, 02:11 AM

I suspect Ryan doesn't think beyond the name and seems unaware of the advantages or limitations of each piece of equipment. If he was aware, he would've decided in about 30 seconds if it's dolly or slider he requires for the film.

On the basis of his wish list shot, it's a Pee Wee dolly with risers, track and a few other accessories that he needs. http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollie...wee-dolly.html

Paul R Johnson · January 7th, 2020, 03:32 AM

If I wanted to describe a shot I had in mind by using example movie clips I don't think I could. I cannot remember watching more than a tiny handful of movies where shots rather than stay stuck in my head. There is no way I'd be able to share a go in, and up then tilt down shot - Why would I remember such things. Many of ryan's clips I've seen and they didn't stand out at all to me as exceptional, or astounding, or spellbinding or any of those pearly descriptive words. In fact, the only movie with an image in it that made me say wow was a long time ago and was of all things, Star Gate - in the desert with a pyramid. I've racked my brains for other amazing shots, which there must have been hundreds, but none were to me, memorable.

I work with professional production companies, and also sometimes amateur ones, and very rarely do the professionals get excited, or impressed. Perhaps compared to amateurs, they're jaded and seen it all before, but it's a job for most, not a 'calling'. Ryan has amazingly lofty aims, nitpicking attention to some details and blindness to others, but no chance to bring any of it off because others just want to get on and do it. Ryan wants to plan and plan and plan, and then get frustrated because he cannot do the very basic things.

Maybe his location just isn't the right place to be?

January 6th, 2020, 03:01 PM	#226
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Usually on a feature film you have a standard set of grip equipment like a dolly and accessories for the entire shoot, plus the standard set of camera gear and lights that will stay on the shoot. You can then add in some more specialist gear. like camera cranes for a certain number of days. You then hope for a ball park figure, no matter what you work out, you won't have enough in the budget. so you either hope for a great deal from the rental company or drop stuff off the list. If you don't know what the gear is and what the extras you require to have a workable piece of kit, you are working in the dark.

January 6th, 2020, 03:03 PM	#227
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks. Well I try to come up with shots, I know I can get with what I already have budgeted. Like the gimbal for example. Only to be told that a gimbal cannot get those shots, etc. So it would be easier if I knew which shot would require which piece of equipment for budgeting. Is there a way to figure it out or to tell?

January 6th, 2020, 03:08 PM	#228
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Look...you know how much money you have available to spend. You can consult rental houses and production listings of dolly grips, dollies, stedicam operators, ronins (or whatever nice gimbal), sliders, etc. and see what's feasible. If I told you a professional stedicam operator was $2000USD (actual price in Houston, who knows in your area) a day, would that rule that option out? Probably. If a Fisher dolly is $400 a day, and you need a dolly grip (maybe another $450/day) to push it, would that rule that out? Probably. If you insist on planning this way, maybe figure out what everything ELSE is going to cost (actors, food, locations, other essential crew, post, etc. ) and figure out how much you have left over. I guess that would be your equipment budget. Prioritize what you HAVE to have and can't beg/borrow/steal. If it's $2000 left over for gear or something, then you have limited options for what can be had for that over a three week period or however long you plan to take to shoot. I'm not an expert, maybe this is all wrong, just trying to help you find different approaches to not go in circles as you have been for at least year now. Robert Rodriguez is an indie hero and did all kinds of stuff to get El Mariachi made for $7000 or whatever, ON FILM no less. Evil Dead guys have some shots that were done by mounting the cam to a long plank and just having two guys run with it to get cool moving shots. Just fart around with whatever you actually have at hand right now. Trying pushing cam in a wheel chair. Put a go pro on a fishing pole. Literally whatever works, works. If it looks good it is good. Audience will never know how you did it and won't care. I did a music video about obnoxious cyclists that cried out for lots of car/bike interaction stunt shots. Obviously super dangerous to do nonprofessionally. Thought about greenscreen, trick angles, finally settled on doing all that stuff with toys/action figures. It's quirky, aesthetically interesting, fit our vibe as a humor band. WHATEVER WORKS. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 6th, 2020, 03:38 PM	#229
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? There are cheap ways to do simplified versions of shots, but don't expect all the bells and whistles in camera moves that a full blown Hollywood feature can do. Although, you'd be surprised how quickly their grips can improvise a shot with what's available on the set. The cost of the actors is a major cost and it can take up a large percentage of the budget, even on a Hollywood feature.

January 6th, 2020, 04:32 PM	#230
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,996	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? All of us are trying to help you but you really have to face some hard questions. Honestly I can't see how you are going raise any significant amount of money. Have you tried because I can't see anyone besides your family and relatives giving you money. Do you have wealthy relatives? Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't feel good if my mom or grand dad gave me like $5,000 and I proceed lose all their money. Are you prepared live under the burden that other people's money rides on your ability to make a success of this? The more money you raise, the more sophisticated you can get but like wise the more money you risk loosing, the higher the expectations and the more pressure. Can you really tell us how much money you could realistically raise? How much of your own money are you willing to put into this? What's the point of planning years on end for something you can't afford. This isn't a short that you film with your friends and there are no consequences if nothing comes of it.

January 6th, 2020, 05:04 PM	#231
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks for the help. Right now I have 50K to use, and can try to raise more.

January 6th, 2020, 05:36 PM	#233
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? However, in feature films terms it's still a low budget film, so you can't splash too much cash on things and you may still end up with at least some people working for free.

January 6th, 2020, 05:39 PM	#234
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? As I said before, at budgets that "low" you have stretch the dollars and only use them where needed for max value. I don't have personal experience but there are books and probably blogs, interviews, videos, etc. about what can be gotten for cheap or free and where you have to spend decent money not to get garbage results. I wish Charles Papert still posted here...all these things would be right up his alley. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 6th, 2020, 06:14 PM	#235
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay. And it's not like I want to do a lot of hugely extravagant shots. But I don't want every shot to be so very restricted either.

January 6th, 2020, 06:14 PM	#236
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,996	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Based on the direction this conversation was taking earlier it sounded like one of those budget buster specials where you borrow your friends Zhiyun Crane as a substitute for all the dolly/slider shots.

January 6th, 2020, 06:17 PM	#237
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Well if it won't substitute then I can get either a tripod dolly with tracks, or a slider if that's better.

January 7th, 2020, 01:25 AM	#238
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Dolly or Slider, if that's better???? The ENTIRE point Ryan, is that you stop asking questions in response to questions. Only you know if it's the most appropriate solution to a shot setup - we have no idea. Make your own mind up! Does it matter which you go for if your idea comes to fruition. Is it better? Frankly - as a producer it's down to money. $1000 for a ten second shot. As Producer it will be overspend, as a Director a sensible spending of limited funds. As the DP, a solution to a problem. As the grip with a bad back and little patience, a terrible decision. If you wear too many hats your brain overheats.

January 7th, 2020, 02:11 AM	#239
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? I suspect Ryan doesn't think beyond the name and seems unaware of the advantages or limitations of each piece of equipment. If he was aware, he would've decided in about 30 seconds if it's dolly or slider he requires for the film. On the basis of his wish list shot, it's a Pee Wee dolly with risers, track and a few other accessories that he needs. http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollie...wee-dolly.html

January 7th, 2020, 03:32 AM	#240
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? If I wanted to describe a shot I had in mind by using example movie clips I don't think I could. I cannot remember watching more than a tiny handful of movies where shots rather than stay stuck in my head. There is no way I'd be able to share a go in, and up then tilt down shot - Why would I remember such things. Many of ryan's clips I've seen and they didn't stand out at all to me as exceptional, or astounding, or spellbinding or any of those pearly descriptive words. In fact, the only movie with an image in it that made me say wow was a long time ago and was of all things, Star Gate - in the desert with a pyramid. I've racked my brains for other amazing shots, which there must have been hundreds, but none were to me, memorable. I work with professional production companies, and also sometimes amateur ones, and very rarely do the professionals get excited, or impressed. Perhaps compared to amateurs, they're jaded and seen it all before, but it's a job for most, not a 'calling'. Ryan has amazingly lofty aims, nitpicking attention to some details and blindness to others, but no chance to bring any of it off because others just want to get on and do it. Ryan wants to plan and plan and plan, and then get frustrated because he cannot do the very basic things. Maybe his location just isn't the right place to be?