Special Effects-Sparks

Robert Martens · May 10th, 2006, 05:15 PM

The only way to approximate a depth effect in PI would be to animate the "zoom" property of your particles, and that's hard to get right; doing it in a compositing app would be the best way. That's the primary advantage of combustion when it comes to particles (plus the motion tracker it's got), though the PI engine is 2.0, I believe, while 3.0 is the most up to date.

Don't forget to check out the emitter libraries that have been released over the past few years (http://www.wondertouch.com/downloads.asp#IEL), there may be some good sparks in there. I started going through them as soon as I saw your post, if I find anything I'll let you know. With some tweaking--or total reworking, if need be--you might end up with something you like.

Update: Threw together a little emitter for you to look at, if you're interested: http://www.gyroshot.com/files/Spark Test.zip If the demo doesn't allow you to load libraries (I'm using a full copy of 3.0), you should be able to look at it with ShowIEL.

That's only a taste, of course, and one could add to it as necessary. Smoke, for example, or for a more complicated effect you could make use of so-called "super" emitters, to have the sparks break up at the end of their lives, forming extra trails (a Google image search for "sparks" reveals plenty of reference for that kind of thing).

Bill Hamell · May 11th, 2006, 04:25 PM

Robert,

Thanks for the help, I could not open the file the demos are looking for .IP3 or .IPF files. Thank for trying. I bookmarked the forum and will read through it.

I had Googled for spark effect but not just sparks da!
I will do that. It is a cool program I will probably get the full version next week.

Bill

Robert Martens · May 12th, 2006, 12:36 AM

The IP3 and IPF formats are particleillusion project files; what I sent you was an emitter library. You can load it by right-clicking in the area on the right side of the workspace in the program (where all the different emitters are listed) and selecting "Load library". It's only one particle type, but I thought it might help start you on the right path.

Bill Hamell · May 12th, 2006, 01:37 AM

Robert,

Thank you I can see it in the menu, however in the demo it is grayed out.
I can view it with the viewer.

Bill

Bill Hamell · May 13th, 2006, 04:24 PM

Here is my first attempt at fire and smoke I know this post started as sparks, however with the presets provided fire and smoke was easier to learn with.

I used the demo of PI V2 SE.
I imported a still image and added smoke and fire, I think it is a little intense, but hey it’s my fist time, I’ll learn. I am also just reading about how to do reflections so I have not added any yet.

Comments welcome.

http://cinebydesign.net/film/fire-smoke-1.avi 1.16mb

Bill

Marcus Marchesseault · May 17th, 2006, 05:32 AM

Although the quality of the graphic is good, I think just an occaisional tounge of flame popping out would look more realistic. A perfect curtain of fire seems too perfect to be real. I definitely think it has potential, but I would rather the smoke be generated on-set so it can interact with the lighting and shadow. I'm interested in seeing the test footage with the flicker box you made included.

Cole McDonald · May 17th, 2006, 08:24 AM

Since it's a static shot, if you wanted more realistic, you could build a replica of just that part of the hood in flat black and have practical smoke and fire (get a pro to do the burn). This can be composited over the main footage using a multiply to make the stuff look like it's coming out of the hood.

Bill Hamell · May 17th, 2006, 05:39 PM

Marcus,

I like your suggestions and have reduced the flames and made the smoke match the background better. Not quite there yet but better.
I agree about the smoke on set I have found out what I need and that is a Hazer, at $600 it will have to wait awhile. So I will do with the fog machine I now have. ($30)

Watch this video you will see the underlying color flashes this is the effect the box gives.
I had the starters hard wired in to the lamp cords. The box will make it easier though.
I wanted to shoot another test this weekend however the weather will veto that idea.

Cole,

I will have the engine pulled out of the wreck I will use, it is possible I could mix up some cold flame and use it for the effect then supplement in post as needed.
Too the lab Igor! ((blah ha ha)(evil laugh))

Anyhoo here’s the latest version…
http://cinebydesign.net/film/fire-smoke-2.avi 5 mb

It is a larger frame size so the effect shows better I also made it 15 secs long and it has a video background this time so the background smoke moves, as does the moth flying about my backlight. Interesting factoid every now and then you would see a puff of smoke from the broad light as a moth flew into it now if I could get more moths to sacrifice themselves I would not need a smoke machine!!! :-)

One more thing I found out what I need for the sparks they are called Omni short circuitors I have not found where to buy them yet, though I do know I will need to pull a temporary permit to buy them.

Bill

Cole McDonald · May 17th, 2006, 07:48 PM

that looks alot better!

Bill Hamell · May 18th, 2006, 02:30 AM

Thank you, I’m learning.

Robert,

You said you had both Discreets Combustion and ParticleIllusion V3 If I get ParticleIllusion V3would there be any reason to get Combustion as well?

Thanks,
Bill

Robert Martens · May 18th, 2006, 07:31 AM

Nice work on the fire, looks pretty good (though I think there's a little too much orange in there, might look better if it were a slightly darker color).

I can't say there's much reason to get Combustion if all you want is the particle effects; it's a great program, and has many (many) other features you might find useful, but I can't bring myself to suggest you spend all that money for a few shots with some simulated smoke/fire/sparks. The real advantage it would have in a scenario like this is the motion tracker, as I mentioned, but if worse comes to worst, I might be able to help you out with that (you send the shot, I track it and send back the data for you to import into PI). It's possible to keyframe the particles' positions by hand as well, which may make sense for you if the camera move is simple.

Bill Hamell · May 18th, 2006, 01:21 PM

Robert,

Thank you, for the information and the offer.
I think camera movement will be small if any in this series of shots It will come more into play when the talent starts interacting more. (By then the fire “WILL” have died off (large grin.)

Bill

Matt Sawyers · June 17th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

Instead of using electrical sparks, try this instead. Using a black back ground, take a grinder to some steel, and shoot that. You can then lay it over your footage, shrink, position, and key out the black.

A little safer than mucking with electricity, especially if you're like me and Tim Taylor.

I would do this. Might even take a sparkler and hold it above the frame then overlay it.

Zack Vohaska · June 24th, 2006, 12:19 AM

A great resource as well is DetonationFilms.com -- they offer free stock footage of explosions, sparks, smoke, blood -- you need it for compositing, they at least have something. In addition to their free footage, they have pay-per-download and CD's for purchase with additional stock footage.

May 10th, 2006, 05:15 PM	#16
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	The only way to approximate a depth effect in PI would be to animate the "zoom" property of your particles, and that's hard to get right; doing it in a compositing app would be the best way. That's the primary advantage of combustion when it comes to particles (plus the motion tracker it's got), though the PI engine is 2.0, I believe, while 3.0 is the most up to date. Don't forget to check out the emitter libraries that have been released over the past few years (http://www.wondertouch.com/downloads.asp#IEL), there may be some good sparks in there. I started going through them as soon as I saw your post, if I find anything I'll let you know. With some tweaking--or total reworking, if need be--you might end up with something you like. Update: Threw together a little emitter for you to look at, if you're interested: http://www.gyroshot.com/files/Spark Test.zip If the demo doesn't allow you to load libraries (I'm using a full copy of 3.0), you should be able to look at it with ShowIEL. That's only a taste, of course, and one could add to it as necessary. Smoke, for example, or for a more complicated effect you could make use of so-called "super" emitters, to have the sparks break up at the end of their lives, forming extra trails (a Google image search for "sparks" reveals plenty of reference for that kind of thing). Last edited by Robert Martens; May 10th, 2006 at 08:28 PM.

May 11th, 2006, 04:25 PM	#17
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Robert, Thanks for the help, I could not open the file the demos are looking for .IP3 or .IPF files. Thank for trying. I bookmarked the forum and will read through it. I had Googled for spark effect but not just sparks da! I will do that. It is a cool program I will probably get the full version next week. Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

May 12th, 2006, 01:37 AM	#19
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Robert, Thank you I can see it in the menu, however in the demo it is grayed out. I can view it with the viewer. Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

May 13th, 2006, 04:24 PM	#20
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Here is my first attempt at fire and smoke I know this post started as sparks, however with the presets provided fire and smoke was easier to learn with. I used the demo of PI V2 SE. I imported a still image and added smoke and fire, I think it is a little intense, but hey it’s my fist time, I’ll learn. I am also just reading about how to do reflections so I have not added any yet. Comments welcome. http://cinebydesign.net/film/fire-smoke-1.avi 1.16mb Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

May 17th, 2006, 08:24 AM	#22
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	Since it's a static shot, if you wanted more realistic, you could build a replica of just that part of the hood in flat black and have practical smoke and fire (get a pro to do the burn). This can be composited over the main footage using a multiply to make the stuff look like it's coming out of the hood. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

May 12th, 2006, 12:36 AM	#18
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	The IP3 and IPF formats are particleillusion project files; what I sent you was an emitter library. You can load it by right-clicking in the area on the right side of the workspace in the program (where all the different emitters are listed) and selecting "Load library". It's only one particle type, but I thought it might help start you on the right path.

May 17th, 2006, 05:32 AM	#21
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	Although the quality of the graphic is good, I think just an occaisional tounge of flame popping out would look more realistic. A perfect curtain of fire seems too perfect to be real. I definitely think it has potential, but I would rather the smoke be generated on-set so it can interact with the lighting and shadow. I'm interested in seeing the test footage with the flicker box you made included.

May 17th, 2006, 05:39 PM	#23
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Marcus, I like your suggestions and have reduced the flames and made the smoke match the background better. Not quite there yet but better. I agree about the smoke on set I have found out what I need and that is a Hazer, at $600 it will have to wait awhile. So I will do with the fog machine I now have. ($30) Watch this video you will see the underlying color flashes this is the effect the box gives. I had the starters hard wired in to the lamp cords. The box will make it easier though. I wanted to shoot another test this weekend however the weather will veto that idea. Cole, I will have the engine pulled out of the wreck I will use, it is possible I could mix up some cold flame and use it for the effect then supplement in post as needed. Too the lab Igor! ((blah ha ha)(evil laugh)) Anyhoo here’s the latest version… http://cinebydesign.net/film/fire-smoke-2.avi 5 mb It is a larger frame size so the effect shows better I also made it 15 secs long and it has a video background this time so the background smoke moves, as does the moth flying about my backlight. Interesting factoid every now and then you would see a puff of smoke from the broad light as a moth flew into it now if I could get more moths to sacrifice themselves I would not need a smoke machine!!! :-) One more thing I found out what I need for the sparks they are called Omni short circuitors I have not found where to buy them yet, though I do know I will need to pull a temporary permit to buy them. Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

May 17th, 2006, 07:48 PM	#24
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	that looks alot better! __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

May 18th, 2006, 02:30 AM	#25
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Thank you, I’m learning. Robert, You said you had both Discreets Combustion and ParticleIllusion V3 If I get ParticleIllusion V3would there be any reason to get Combustion as well? Thanks, Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

May 18th, 2006, 07:31 AM	#26
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	Nice work on the fire, looks pretty good (though I think there's a little too much orange in there, might look better if it were a slightly darker color). I can't say there's much reason to get Combustion if all you want is the particle effects; it's a great program, and has many (many) other features you might find useful, but I can't bring myself to suggest you spend all that money for a few shots with some simulated smoke/fire/sparks. The real advantage it would have in a scenario like this is the motion tracker, as I mentioned, but if worse comes to worst, I might be able to help you out with that (you send the shot, I track it and send back the data for you to import into PI). It's possible to keyframe the particles' positions by hand as well, which may make sense for you if the camera move is simple.

May 18th, 2006, 01:21 PM	#27
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Robert, Thank you, for the information and the offer. I think camera movement will be small if any in this series of shots It will come more into play when the talent starts interacting more. (By then the fire “WILL” have died off (large grin.) Bill __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

June 24th, 2006, 12:19 AM	#29
Zack Vohaska Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 74	A great resource as well is DetonationFilms.com -- they offer free stock footage of explosions, sparks, smoke, blood -- you need it for compositing, they at least have something. In addition to their free footage, they have pay-per-download and CD's for purchase with additional stock footage.