various Magic Bullet questions

Michael Estepp · June 12th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Hey Folks,
I have a feature Im cutting in Vegas and doing color and stuff in After Effects. I want to know if I should take each individual clip into Magic Bullet and render it out 24 frams and re-assemble it in vegas, or should I do the whole movie? Also, should i change the audio playback rate or let it be? I would think there would be some offset.

Michael

Joshua Provost · June 12th, 2006, 08:51 PM

Michael,

It all depends on your workflow. Some people prefer to convert their raw footage and edit in pure 24p. Others just complete the project and run through MB at the end in one pass, it certainly cuts down on processing time that way. You can get away with this with MB, because it has decent scene detection (sometimes cuts do selectively bleed through to each other, though). Other 24p convertors, like DVFilm Maker, don't do such a good job with cuts, and will give you a blended frame or two.

One thing to note. If you edit in 60i with the intent to convert later, then your transitions, titles, effects, etc. will be rendered in interlaced, and won't look as good in the end as they would have if they were done in pure 24p. One option is to edit everything but the transitions, title, etc. and MB your 60i, take it back to editing for one last pass to add that stuff as pure 24p.

Josh

Ryan Graham · June 13th, 2006, 01:41 PM

It's easy to Magic Bullet-ize the final edit when editing in Premiere, because you can open up your Premiere projects right into After Effects, and the clips appear as layers on the timeline. This avoids the blurred cuts/transitions problem, because you can apply Magic Bullet to each clip from within After Effect. I did it this way for my feature film, and it worked out great. Everything was edited in Premiere and then ported into AE for color correction and Magic Bullet-ing. Then exported as a hi-res QT file.

Automatic Duck might make a program that can move Vegas projects into After Effects like this. I know they make a program that does this for FCP. Otherwise, it seems as if your options are either to Bullet every clip and edit 24p in Vegas, or deal with the slight blurring between cuts if using a single AVI/QT file in After Effects. Neither sounds like much fun, to be honest.

Audio playback rate remains the same regardless. Never had any issues with this.

Good luck,
Ryan Graham
Director, "Livelihood"
www.livelihoodmovie.com

Jon Fairhurst · June 13th, 2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Graham

Audio playback rate remains the same regardless. Never had any issues with this.

True. We don't use 24 fps in NTSC countries for video. We use 23.976 fps. That lets us do the 3:2 thing without any slippage.

60i is 59.94 fields/s
60p is 59.94 frames/s
30p is 29.97 frames/s
24p video is 23.976 frames/s in NTSC land

It all scales nicely.

BTW, 60i used to really be 60 fields/s, back before they added the color subcarrier to video.

Alexander Cooney · July 15th, 2006, 01:30 AM

I realize this is probably not the most appropriate topic for this forum, but I'm afraid I've grown desperate in my search for a solution.

I'm Having some trouble installing the Magic Bullet suite. When I get to the part where I'm supposed to click on the "auto setup" button, nothing happens. My suspicion is that it is partially installed in the wrong directory, as portions of other files are missing. Perhaps somebody could tell me where their magic bullet files are located in the After Effects directory? Or maybe there is another solution.

If you know anything about what I might be talking about, please respond. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Alexander Cooney · July 17th, 2006, 11:38 AM

I've just recently managed to aquire an FX1 for some future productions I plan on filming. I use the adobe premium production studio for all of my post work. Last night I sat down with some footage I shot for testing and went to work trying to make it look like film. The 24p problem was the first obstacle to overcome, since I shot in 60i. Just for the hell of it, I imported it into a premiere project with the settings at 25 fps. A little color Correction here and there and in my opinion it looked great!

Am I just blind to the fact that it actually looks bad? Everything that I've read online says that you have to go with a program like Magic Bullet to convert it into a true 24p format. Is there that big of a difference between the bulleted 24p footage and the result that premiere produces when you drop it into a 25fps project? Perhaps some of you with a more trained eye could tell me.

Patrick Jenkins · July 31st, 2006, 07:09 AM

I sort of agree. I've done some simple experiments with this at various points (I mix a lot of PAL and NTSC footage regularly and have gotten quite adept at handling issues) and think a much better 60i -> 24p workflow - if it looks/works for you - is to create 25p with what you've got instead.

To my eyes, 60/30/25 conforms a lot smoother than 60/30/24. The fields being reconstructed in 24p to take into consideration motion and time just look sketchy and bad (end up with that slight hyper real motion) whereas no real temporal reconstruction is needed with 25p. Yeah, there's a tad of judder, but for whatever reason it's a lot less noticable (maybe as everything is divided 'evenly' by 5 throughout the process the eyes glaze? - theres no introduced 'break' in motion) than using a 24p process. To then get 25p->24p I do the slow down.

I don't use Premiere (all Final Cut) but I routinely mix 60i, 50i and 25p footage to end up with 24p finished work. It's a lot of effort and a bit convoluted, but I think the result is (depending on the context and requirements) occasionally a little better.

Nate Fields · August 12th, 2006, 11:03 PM

i just wished that they would just merge all video standards so we wouldnt have to be like "if i have 60i and 24p and wanted 908fps what do i use to convert to pal 1068p"

James Johanson · February 10th, 2007, 03:33 PM

I recently snagged a copy of magic bullet suite for after effects,and had some videos i recorded with a sony dsr pd100a and am using magic bullet for 24p conversion when i follow it into after effects and covert into 24p it doesn;t seem 24p and i use ntsc video. I shoot at 60i, and set after effects project files to 23.976fps. i apply magic bullet which inferences deintrlacing, with a lower field, Motion detection 20, and detail pattern 4. also deartifacting is 4:1:1 dvcam. can anyone help me?

Jack Major · February 10th, 2007, 07:24 PM

i think i may be having a similar problem my footage just doesnt look like it is deinterlaced so i dunno if anyone could help that would be great.

June 12th, 2006, 08:00 PM	#91
Michael Estepp Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 95	feature with magic bullet Hey Folks, I have a feature Im cutting in Vegas and doing color and stuff in After Effects. I want to know if I should take each individual clip into Magic Bullet and render it out 24 frams and re-assemble it in vegas, or should I do the whole movie? Also, should i change the audio playback rate or let it be? I would think there would be some offset. Michael

June 12th, 2006, 08:51 PM	#92
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Michael, It all depends on your workflow. Some people prefer to convert their raw footage and edit in pure 24p. Others just complete the project and run through MB at the end in one pass, it certainly cuts down on processing time that way. You can get away with this with MB, because it has decent scene detection (sometimes cuts do selectively bleed through to each other, though). Other 24p convertors, like DVFilm Maker, don't do such a good job with cuts, and will give you a blended frame or two. One thing to note. If you edit in 60i with the intent to convert later, then your transitions, titles, effects, etc. will be rendered in interlaced, and won't look as good in the end as they would have if they were done in pure 24p. One option is to edit everything but the transitions, title, etc. and MB your 60i, take it back to editing for one last pass to add that stuff as pure 24p. Josh __________________ Owner/Operator, 727 Records Co-Founder, Matter of Chance Productions Blogger, Try Avoidance

July 15th, 2006, 01:30 AM	#95
Alexander Cooney New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9	Magic Bullet Installation Issues I realize this is probably not the most appropriate topic for this forum, but I'm afraid I've grown desperate in my search for a solution. I'm Having some trouble installing the Magic Bullet suite. When I get to the part where I'm supposed to click on the "auto setup" button, nothing happens. My suspicion is that it is partially installed in the wrong directory, as portions of other files are missing. Perhaps somebody could tell me where their magic bullet files are located in the After Effects directory? Or maybe there is another solution. If you know anything about what I might be talking about, please respond. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

July 17th, 2006, 11:38 AM	#96
Alexander Cooney New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9	Magic Bullet 24p vs. Premiere 25fps project I've just recently managed to aquire an FX1 for some future productions I plan on filming. I use the adobe premium production studio for all of my post work. Last night I sat down with some footage I shot for testing and went to work trying to make it look like film. The 24p problem was the first obstacle to overcome, since I shot in 60i. Just for the hell of it, I imported it into a premiere project with the settings at 25 fps. A little color Correction here and there and in my opinion it looked great! Am I just blind to the fact that it actually looks bad? Everything that I've read online says that you have to go with a program like Magic Bullet to convert it into a true 24p format. Is there that big of a difference between the bulleted 24p footage and the result that premiere produces when you drop it into a 25fps project? Perhaps some of you with a more trained eye could tell me.

July 31st, 2006, 07:09 AM	#97
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	I sort of agree. I've done some simple experiments with this at various points (I mix a lot of PAL and NTSC footage regularly and have gotten quite adept at handling issues) and think a much better 60i -> 24p workflow - if it looks/works for you - is to create 25p with what you've got instead. To my eyes, 60/30/25 conforms a lot smoother than 60/30/24. The fields being reconstructed in 24p to take into consideration motion and time just look sketchy and bad (end up with that slight hyper real motion) whereas no real temporal reconstruction is needed with 25p. Yeah, there's a tad of judder, but for whatever reason it's a lot less noticable (maybe as everything is divided 'evenly' by 5 throughout the process the eyes glaze? - theres no introduced 'break' in motion) than using a 24p process. To then get 25p->24p I do the slow down. I don't use Premiere (all Final Cut) but I routinely mix 60i, 50i and 25p footage to end up with 24p finished work. It's a lot of effort and a bit convoluted, but I think the result is (depending on the context and requirements) occasionally a little better. __________________ PAL shooter in NTSC territory

June 13th, 2006, 01:41 PM	#93
Ryan Graham Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 81	It's easy to Magic Bullet-ize the final edit when editing in Premiere, because you can open up your Premiere projects right into After Effects, and the clips appear as layers on the timeline. This avoids the blurred cuts/transitions problem, because you can apply Magic Bullet to each clip from within After Effect. I did it this way for my feature film, and it worked out great. Everything was edited in Premiere and then ported into AE for color correction and Magic Bullet-ing. Then exported as a hi-res QT file. Automatic Duck might make a program that can move Vegas projects into After Effects like this. I know they make a program that does this for FCP. Otherwise, it seems as if your options are either to Bullet every clip and edit 24p in Vegas, or deal with the slight blurring between cuts if using a single AVI/QT file in After Effects. Neither sounds like much fun, to be honest. Audio playback rate remains the same regardless. Never had any issues with this. Good luck, Ryan Graham Director, "Livelihood" www.livelihoodmovie.com

August 12th, 2006, 11:03 PM	#98
Nate Fields Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Markleville IN Posts: 58	i just wished that they would just merge all video standards so we wouldnt have to be like "if i have 60i and 24p and wanted 908fps what do i use to convert to pal 1068p"

February 10th, 2007, 03:33 PM	#99
James Johanson New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 16	Magic Bullet Help I recently snagged a copy of magic bullet suite for after effects,and had some videos i recorded with a sony dsr pd100a and am using magic bullet for 24p conversion when i follow it into after effects and covert into 24p it doesn;t seem 24p and i use ntsc video. I shoot at 60i, and set after effects project files to 23.976fps. i apply magic bullet which inferences deintrlacing, with a lower field, Motion detection 20, and detail pattern 4. also deartifacting is 4:1:1 dvcam. can anyone help me?

February 10th, 2007, 07:24 PM	#100
Jack Major Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Laguna Beach, California Posts: 61	i think i may be having a similar problem my footage just doesnt look like it is deinterlaced so i dunno if anyone could help that would be great.