For Reference
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Unlike Full Sail, it's an accredited degree with all the requirements that it implies (math, english, and what ever other classes FL requires to get a degree of any sort).
-->>>

Full Sail's Film Program DOES offer an Associate of Science Degree when you complete the course.

Full Sail...Very true.

heath

I took my son up there a few years ago. They have exactly 1 35 film camera, and by the time you qualify, there is no garauntee you will get to use it. They divide up everyone by their 'abilities', screenwriter, director, grip, set design. Many students were using some of their own dv equipment to supplement. They do have a nice size sound stage. And the degree is not accredited. Similar to the Art Institute Bachelor program which is not accredited by any recognized education association.
40K for an non accredited associates is pretty high, about 20 times more expensive than many of the community colleges around FL. Valencia CC, not far from UCF, has film/video related courses. Have you checked them out?

Getting an associated from a state CC will apply toward a Bachelors at any State College/University in FL. Plus at least one of them has to let you in. (10 to choose from).
UCF has a growing Film school, but has a year and a half waiting list. You could apply while going to Valencia. And still be in wonderful Orlando! For a lot less money

Valencia has been one of the top, if not the number one, below-the-line film schools in the country. (Below the line schools cover cameras, lighting, editing, etc., but not really directing, producing or writing.)

heath

To school or not to school?
 

I graduated from UC San Diego about two years ago with a degree in film. Was it worth it? Yes and no. I think one of the biggest problems for kids (most anyways, there are always exceptions) going into college or other higher education, is that your not mature enough to really appreciate learning. You sort of go through the motions and get your stuff done, but don't take full advantage of your surroundings.
It's funny, since getting out of college I am so much more interested in learning than I ever have been before. I want to learn languages, sciences, everything. I almost feel that a year or two off between highschool and some other schooling is a good idea. Try working as a PA. Volunteer some time and get noticed.
It's also hard for some to get a degree and then work at the bottom level as a grunt, and possibly volunteering your time. Since you went to school to be able to support yourself with a job, this can be a very difficult situation. It's almost as if the degree did nothing.
I think college is a good thing, but it seems in media production, experience, and who you know gets you alot farther.
On the other hand, college can offer opportunites to get those experiences. Not because of the fact that you have a degree, but just because you were there. For example, the summer after my senior year of college, there was a mass e-mail looking for PAs for a tv show. Now they didn't care if you had a degree or not... it was more they just thought to send an e-mail to the school to find young people. So if your not in an environment where those things can happen, then you might not ever get those opportunities.
In retrospect, I wish I had taken a year or two to work for a tv station, volunteered at sundance, tried working as a PA... anything to get some experience and contacts before school. I think I would have appreciated higher learning alot more and gotten more for my buck. After college I still would have those contacts and something on a resume more than a degree to enter the work force with.
That is one of the things that makes film production so exciting, and so scary at the same time. There is no set path to take to get to where you want to go, and no guarantee that you'll even get there. But you also might fall into something that is really wonderful and fascinating that you hadn't even planned on either.
This is my on going tale... hopefully it has helped in some small way. If nothing else just so when you see my name at the top of a post, you know to skip it in favor of wiser words.

Adam said it good.

Riley,

I'm in a similar situation and i think i'm going to go ahead and head for film school. However, this decistion has to be made yourself. I am choosing to go to film school because I think there is a lot I still don't know and I want to know everything. All I know right now is what i've taught myself. Then again, i've only been interested in film since senior year. If you feel that your good enough and there isn't much more you can learn, then go ahead and make a film. The only advantage that you will be missing out on is making connections and possibly having your work viewed by studio reps.
If you do end up wanting to go to film school, please, for the sake of your career, move out of Oklahoma... :) What schools are you thinking about? What's your style?
Anyway, I want to wish you the absolute best of luck in whatever decision you make. And if you're ever here in California, drop me a line.

Best,
Gino Terribilini

Re: To school or not to school?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Adam C Bowman : I graduated from UC San Diego about two years ago with a degree in film. -->>>

I've applied to UCSD (still waiting to hear if I'm going to get in, though) and am wondering what their equipment was like?

I've got my AA from a JC and am transferring there. Are UC schools like this good for Film Majors or are schools where they specialize in it like AI (http://www.artinstitutes.edu/) better?

It depends on what seems more important to you. At AFI it would be more like a technical degree where you learn more of the craft or hands on part of film. At a UC or many other undergraduate programs alot of it is theory and study(with the exception of UCLA). If your goal is to work in Hollywood for big productions, AFI is a safer bet. But with the undergraduate program, you get a better all around education and you become a better student of the art of film rather than a student of the craft. If that makes sense. The other thing is that alot of undergraduate programs being more theory and art oriented tend to lean to the avant-garde in their program. Not to sayt this is necassarily bad, but you wont be studying "Pirates of the Caribean." Instead you'll look at alot of foreign films, independent, (not searchlight) and experimental films. The up side of that is that you get exposed to very different films that you might not otherwise discover, and in truth gives you a greater understanding of the art of film, and then hopefully become a better filmmaker.
NOW HERES THE WARNING! With the undergraduate program at a school like UCSD, you come out with a better appreciation for a good film, and a disgust for trash. In essence the friday night at the cineplex is ruined for the most part. You realise that 90% of the films out there are put together just fine, but are in no way artfully crafted, and truthfully a 100 million dollar consumer driven piece of trash.
As far as their equipment it was pretty good, and they are always upgrading. They have a team of techs that keep things running smooth, and plenty of staff that know how to use it so there should be no reason that the resources aren't there to learn how to use the tools of production.
As a final two cents to add to my $3.76 worth up above, if you have the time, and don't mind school, both an undergraduate and AFI might be a good thing. I also think you have to have a decent portfolio to get into AFI, (i might be wrong on that) and a good way to develope that is through an undergraduate program. That way when all is said and done, you have the technical skills from AFI, and the theory of good filmmaking from the arty undergraduate.

Damn... halfway through writing this dribble, I second guessed myself and went back to change all AI to AFI. I was thinking AI would be artificial inteligence, and a terrible film, and AFI is the american film institute. After realising you were talking about another AI, I went and took a look at AI's program at the LA school as an example. and it seems the same applies to that program as well. More technical skills oriented, obviously some theory, but not as art as it is craft minded. So there you go.
(another five minutes later)
Oh i just went back and watched a quiktime movie they said was about the Video Production program, and it was a little clip showing a computer program, (Affter effects possibly) with a voice over talking alot of program jargon about layers and enhancing the video. What she means is that they are adding titles. Seemed a little silly for a introduction to a Video Production Program.
I also think they only work in video and seems more of a television oriented program than film. At an undergraduate program, you most likely would get exposure to different mediums like motion picture film, still photography, video, etc..... At least that was my experience at UCSD.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I was looking at AFI too (and thats how I found AI in the first place) but it seems like it may be difficult to get into and I have no portfolio or teacher recommendations. I should also mention that I can go to any California state funded school (CSU or UC) for free due to a VA fee waiver I've received.

My plan is to get a bachelors at UCSD and then hopefully get enough done there to get into UCLA. But if I fail to get into either school (I'm still waiting for an acceptance letter), I wanted to explore the AFI type schools (although they look damn expensive).

That reminds me. In RES magazine, they said one of the coolest unusual vacations to go on was the
week long course at the NY Film Academy. The one that advertises in the various independent movie zines.

Anybody know anything about them?

Never done it myself; acquaintances have. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has taken that course and then gone on to serious work. Short courses have the disadvantage of not providing the depth and breadth of networking really needed to launch a career, but most of them do teach bare bones basics.

More reputable are the Maine workshops, and they have the benefit of being held in a more vacationy environs and social atmosphere to boot.

this sounds like a good thread. I know the maine workshops have been mentioned before. Any else know of a good short course for the working adult? Preferably in summer.

One of the more interesting film schools I've run across is the European Film College. They have an 8 month course (click here) that's designed like a workshop, and they give you a good selection of theoretical and hands on classes to choose from. Their main focus seems to be to promote collaboration among the students. It's designed to expose beginners to a wide range of film/video knowledge and know-how.

You do have to be very self-motivated, but for approx. US$10,000 which includes food and lodging, it's not a bad deal. I'm seriously thinking of signing up, looks like a lot of fun.


Also have heard a lot of good feedback on the Maine workshops from friends who have taken the weekend courses. Very fun and social.

Ebeltoft, Denmark, eh?

"You do have to be very self-motivated, but for approx. US$10,000 which includes food and lodging, it's not a bad deal. "

So for So for 10 Grand you will have 8 months of food and lodging covered for you?

Also if you have to be a very self motivated type of person, which most sucsessfull people are, there is probably a way to gain all of that knowlege for a lot less than 10,000 bucks. I'm not bashing the idea completely but it seems to me that this forum has the potential to lead any of us to the answers to any of our AV quiestions.

<<<-- Originally posted by Cleveland Brown : So for 10 Grand you will have 8 months of food and lodging covered for you?. -->>>

That is correct, food, lodging, classes, plus access to equipment, studios, and other motivated people. It's like an 8 month movie making summer camp.

I can see where that could be pretty cool. I guess that it is government subsidised so that makes it cheaper. But I can tell you that Northern Europe is not a pleasant place to be during that time of year. Freeeeeezzzzing ass cold. So it's more like winter camp.

Film School Questions
 

I am thinking about going for a Bachelor of Arts - Media Arts for Film and HDTV. Collins or The Art Institute are the only 2 real choices here in Phoenix, AZ. I was wondering what to expect for a job after completing 4 years of school. Is it worth it? Any suggestions, comments, etc is greatly appreciated.

Some things to consider before school...

1) What's the local production scene like. Are there any good companies you can intern for?

2) Would you be prepared to move to LA, NY, Chicago, Texas, etc... for work?

3) Like any other job filed you're most likely going to be doing work you're not wild about while trying to build up a resume to eventually get your dream position...

...e.g., if you wanna edit, be preapred to do a lot of tape logging as an assistant, if you wanna DP, be preapred to be a low assisstant or work in G&E until you learn the ropes of lighting, if you wanna be a writer/director, realize that it's probably only going to happen on small scale or in personal productions.

4) If you wanna teach, or bypass some of the apprenticeship phase, you'll eventually need a terminal degree (MFA). Have you thought about Grad school (I know it's early, but now's the time to consider all the angles).

Wow ok...

1) I am not sure about the scene here in AZ, probably not THAT bad.
2) Yes I would move to LA, NY, or TX if the money was good enough.
3) I don't mind starting at the bottom. I would like to edit and write. Directing would be nice, but I know it is a hard spot to get.
4)What is a terminal degree?


Mainly I want to TRY to get a new position at my current job. We are a LARGE and RICH company and just created our own production firm for all our TV spots. Hint: We had the most controversial superbowl TV ad this year. EDIT: (LEGAL REASONS) So in the near as well as far future there will be some positions open. So I am not really trying to get a 'new' job after school, just trying for a better one within the company. Of course the extra knowledge will prove to be nice for my own indy and side projects. Just wonder if it is going to be worth it, graduating at 35 eeeek!

Marco,
Never to old to learn something new. It sounds as though you have already got an inside track within the company where you are currently employed. Probably the best thing you can do at this point in time, is meet with HR and tell them you are interested in focussing on that part of the company as a "CAREER TRACK". Ask HR what you can do to make a contribution to the company, as well as your own skill advancement. (What you are angling for is assistance in any training. That way, they have an interest in your success.)

Beyond that. A 'terminal degree' is an advanced degree that terminates a particular field. Might be Masters, might be PHD. but it's beyond a BA/BS (usually.)

Do a search on this forum, regarding the pros and cons of film schools. Mostly, the value lies in connections with your peers, or connections the school might have in the industry. Obviously, the 'big' film schools have better connections than the smaller ones, at least at the higher levels. And usually, the bigger schools have newer, better gear. BUT NOT ALWAYS. You have to check them out. Do a google search for L.O.A.F.S (Library of annotated film schools. Lots of good/bad reviews... sour grapes and glowing worship. Take a huge dose of salt in reading it.)

Film schools allow you access to gear and crew you might not have on your own. Note, I said MIGHT NOT. With the advance in digital gear and the general boom in filmmaking interest, it's possible to scrape together crew and gear just about anywhere nowadays. Of course, the discipline of a course program has a lot to say for itself. (Show up or fail.)

Good luck

Thank you very much for that piece. My company would more than likely pay 100% of the tuition, another reason I was looking into school of almost any kind, Film being the first. I know it is a hard industry. I am on the edge of "Just go" and "Will it be a waste of time". I'll do some research on the Library of annotated film schools. Thanks again.

Marco, considering the insider track you seem to have, along with the fact that GoDaddy might pay your tuition, and you'd be willing to move for work, I'd say it's a no-brainer.

If you're unsure, go visit the schools and meet with the professors you'll be having. Make them sell you the program. Plus you could always double major in media production and then also in "backup" field.

"I was wondering what to expect for a job after completing 4 years of school"

" I don't mind starting at the bottom. I would like to edit and write. Directing would be nice, but I know it is a hard spot to get."

lets say you didn't have the connection you have with your current company.

if after 4 years of college you go to HOLLYWOOD ... in general for editing , camera, directing , general crew, producing you would start at the bottom ..same as the person that didn't go to college...

hollywood doesn't care if you have a degree ..for editing , directing , writing they will say "SHOW me something" .. if you have nothing to show them you'll start at the bottom ...

When you say "show me", I assume you are indicating previous work or a really nice video portfolio...

"Hollywood doesn't care if you have a degree"

With that said, do I even bother to go to school at this point? I could just keep learning on my own and attempt to get a position in that field in time. My biggest fear is going through all that school and still having no further of a career advantage in the industry, barring the insider advantage. It's a big step, the hardest part is deciding whether or not to go. Ahhhhh decisions decisions!

Go to school IF:

It's on somebody else's dime

The school you can get into is highly regarded and has industry wide connections... then fight like hell to be the top of the heap.

The school has a good selection of equipment that you would not have access to otherwise. And their graduates get work on at least a regional scale.

You know absolutely nothing about film, live in a rural area with no networking possibilities, and have no way of teaching yourself.

You want to TEACH filmmaking and a higher degree is required.


DON'T go if:

You can't afford it.

You have an inside track to on-the-job training IE: You can already work as a PA, grip, whatever with a local production company that does a lot of work. This is the 'apprentice' / intern approach, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's a chance to learn under the demanding realities of budget and schedules for commercial production. Don't forget to fight like hell to get to the top of the heap.

You can afford to make all the mistakes yourself. That is, buy/rent your own gear, crew etc... and learn by doing it yourself.

I agree almost completely with Richard.

I'm in a "film school" right now, and I learned more shooting on my own than and at pro shoots than I did in school...However, if at some point you decide production's not for you (nobody knows the future), you'll be kicking yourself for passing up the opportunity at having some kind of college degree. It will make a difference when applying for any kind of job outside of production.

And it will put you one step closer to teaching even if that's something you decide you want to do ten years from now. A lot of working pros I know teach 7 months a year and shoot the other five, and none of them planned on teaching originally.

I guess I failed to mention that I do already have a computer degree. I had my own onsite/mobile computer service for about 5 years. It got really old. I grew tired as the computers got better and spyware/virus removal was the only thing I was doing anymore. Very ungratifying. I was a glorified spyware remover by the end. Even though the money was awesome, I quit. Now I am a support tech at a large corporate environment. I want to do something different now as I care not to be an old man, still working for 'the man'.

You all have helped me with this and I appreciate it. I am still trying to figure out if it is something I think will be worth it. Or just collect equipment and knowledge over time and learn myself.

Cheers...

Did anyone here go to the USC Film School?
 

I have been very interested in going there for many years (I'm a junior in highschool right now). I know USC is very selective but is the film school as selective?

I didn't go there, but I'd imagine the film school is even more competetive, given it's reputation.

Film School (in Belgium, or near)
 

I've been thinking about going back to filmschool - I've already went to StLucas in Brussels for a year a couple of years ago, but there are lots of other film schools in Brussels to choose from. Does anyone have experience in any of them? I'm looking mostly at Narafi and Ritcz.

Hello Jan,

(I'll use some Dutch terms, as that is easier)

I am 18, and now I'm finishing my last year in "secundair onderwijs" after 4 years of "audiovisuele vorming" in Gent.
Now next year I would like to go to the filmacademy in Gent, "KASK", short for "Koninklijke Academie voor Schone Kunsten" (now they usually call it the film academy).

Why is that my choice?
Well, because:
1. StLucas Brussels: I have heard you don't learn as much, I have that from someone who is there following classes now.

2. RITS: I think you'll go to a more TV 'milieu' then a film milieu, and I don't like it they separate all their directions. It's good for some people, but not for me.
OR you choose editing, OR you choose directing, OR you choose camera... I want to direct movies, but I also want to write my own stuff and to know something about editing.

3. NARRAFI: Too technical. They give you lots of optics and all that kind, but they never look into the more story and character based things of films.

4. KASK Gent: they are very hard in their entry exams, they allow plus minus 20-25 people too their academy.
But you'll learn everything: editing, story, camera,...
The most of all, I like their mentality: your personal development is the most important, you learn to do your thing with movies, and not what a teacher wants.
I have met some teachers and went to the school to film something, and I really felt this kind of positive vibe.
The entry exams are in beginning of July (when I will be taking mine) and in September. I hope I get trough, it's something I want more than anything else.

If you want some more information about their classes, the rules for the entry exams... ask ;-)

Best regards,

ps: Steve+Sky is from a student from KASK who was recently graduated. If you haven't seen it yet: by all means see it, it's a really wonderful film. Great cinematography, editing and acting!
And KASK is voted to best film school of Belgium by AVS a while ago.

Thanks Mathieu, that's a very informative reply. I'm also more interested in story development and actors direction than a purely technical education. Kask Gent sounds good. I never liked being in a 60-students class in St.lucas...

I've been meaning to check out Steve+Sky. What is AVS?

I think it's a famous local newschannel, but I'm not sure. Héhé, maybe they do some video productions too, don't know.

The entry exam is kind of though, well it's especially a lot. If you are interested let me know here, or send me an email, it's the same.

And Steve+Sky really is great :-)
The story is not complicated, but the editing, cinematography which is very poetic, and acting makes it a beauty. Well opinions differ, so, check it out for yourself ;-)

Best regards

here's an ominous message I found about KASK gent:

" HORROR EN DE FILMACADEMIE
De fantasten hameren er al jaren op; geef fantastiek een kans in Nederland. Nog steeds is het Filmfonds er niet happig op en zien bloedige Film Academie projecten zelden het licht. Wie dacht dat het bij onze zuiderburen anders gaat, heeft het mis. Deze week kregen we van één van de studenten een verontrustende mail: "...als ik het woord horror nog maar in de mond nam werd ik scheef bekeken door de leerkrachten. Bij die conservatieve en door gebrek aan succes hypergefrustreerde leerkrachten vond ik geen gehoor. Een spijtige zaak, bovendien werkt er een alcoholverslaafde leraar die het de leerlingen onmogelijk maakt" (student Filmacademie Gent)"

:-) I'm sure it isn't that bad. Actually I'm very interested in KASK. Maybe I'll see you there next year, Matthieu. Unfortunately the website of KASK has no mention of the film orientation, nor can I find when there is an exhibition day.

Oh by the way I saw Steve+Sky, I loved it.

Héhé, great you loved the movie.
Well, when I talked to the teachers, they said the want persons to make their own movie, and not the ones the teachers want to make.
And I have lessons from a teacher who gives classes there also, and he is great, and is open for everything. He loves good movies, and that interest goes from Fellini till Spielberg, and he loves movies from the early days of films also (and I mean, the really early days, 1920 and stuff) so he just likes quality, not any kind of genre.

And I have to say I'm a little surprised by that article.
Because I have seen some works from the KASK, and some were more commercial, others more arty.

Well, maybe we'll just see next year ;-)

Yes I'm taking the entrance exam so maybe see you there. I'm a little worried only about my age, I'm already 26. It's no problem for universities, but for an art academy... oh well, I have to try.

Good luck if you do the exam!

By the way I wanted to email you but your profile doesn't have an email adress.