How many with formal cameraman education?
 

Perhaps a misplaced question in this forum, but I'm a bit curious about the FX1/Z1 crew:

How may of you, making a living as cameraman/videographer, have a formal education in the field?

I've never had formal education in any of the fields that have been my professions (musician, computer programmer, semiconductor specialist). I just learn by reading books, practising the subject a lot, and talking to professionals. I've found that the "dive in, learn to swim" approach has worked pretty well for me so far. I try to take on projects where I'm underqualified, in order to learn. The "how hard can it be?" approach. Thats what I'm doing right now with my FX1. On the other hand, getting employment requires some solid show-pieces when one doesn't have education.

I think that I must have had the best training possible: starting as an Assistant Film Cameraman with the BBC, then becoming a Lighting Cameraman, then Director, then Producer...
and here I am - through choice, as a freelance Director/Cameraman with wonderful Digital Video.
When I read all the posts about striving for that "film look", you must excuse my wry smile.....

Robin

I got my degree in television production.

and if i would like to get one..where would i go? i am in the san francisco area.

greetings

1 year of NYU film school, and I dropped out cold, never to return. Started working as a P.A. shortly thereafter; watched the DP's work like a hawk and asked a lot of questions. Hung out at a rental house, started learning their Steadicam, starting shooting corporate work etc. Got a job as a staff shooter for small production company; shot and cut hundreds of local commercials and corporates. Went freelance, eventually moved to LA and starting working on movies and episodic TV.

The critical parts for me from a learning perspective were: watching how others do their craft, reading books and American Cinematographer and analyzing movies, then having a chance to try out techniques I had read about (that production company job).

As far as the Steadicam part goes, taking the class at the Maine Photographic Workshops was invaluable (and probably the only "formal" education I've had as a cameraman). There's a lot of great classes there, worth looking into.

I think the 'value of film school' discussion has been pretty much hashed out. SO a search would yield a vast array of opinions.

Like many others, I learned most of my craft 'on the job'. Started in Television (Studio Cameraman,) then remote work. While working as a cameraman, I hung out in MC, learned the switcher and the audio boards. Migrated to Audio for a while. Did some voice over work one night when the local 'big voice' of the station was sick. Moved from that to Radio (#1 station in Houston)...

Much of my career has been skipping from one skillset/area to the next. By virtue of observing the best person on the job. Asking LOTS of questions. Using equipment in the off hours... yeah. Self taught and 'apprenticing'... I think is a big part of advancing in the biz.

THough film schools have the advantage of providing an equipment and personell rich environment if you don't have access to the professional world. Also, in film school, you can establish a network of people to support each other after graduation. (Of course, that's true of ANY professional schooling)

Karl, in the San Francisco area, look into Bay Area Video Coalition www.bavc.org and FilmArts filmarts.org for area classes specific to a topic. Avid, FCP, camera, lighting. These are great local organizations that support filmmakers. Beyond that, although extremeley pricy, look into Academy of Art University. But like I said, not cheap.

It's all their fault!
 

Started paying attention since I was about 6 years old, worked at a rental house, CineTech, in Miami, took my IA test and started working!

These are the two people who were solely responsible for my career track!
http://www.rbravo.com/new_page_1.htm

RB

You couldn't have a better family for getting into this business.

BTW, how come everyone on your staff is so good looking? ;-) Must be exciting to shoot video where there's always action around.

Charles & Richard: Great to hear that my ways of learning probably will fit this business.

Bjorn,

Just so I'm clear... I'm not AGAINST film school per se. In fact, several years ago, I went back and got a degree. Mostly because I was considering the option of teaching, and a degree is necessary if that's what you want to do.

I have found that in most of the 'artistic' professions... film, theatre, art, dance... It's the self-motivated, self-starter who seeks out opportunities, pounds the pavement, puts in the time apprenticing with someone, who will move forward in their chosen field. This is true even when they are in a school structure. In film school, it's not enough to simply do the assignments, you should be volunteering on other peoples shoots, putting in extra hours, etc.

Good luck.

Richard, I understand what you mean. From the talented people I've met in my various line of work, they've been both educated and "uneducated" (misleading word, but you probably understand). I guess people just aquire knowledge in different ways. My main problem with getting an education, the few times I've tried it, is that it generally progresses too slow, so its a waste of my time. Unfortunately I've not met many good teachers.

Right now I'm running two parallel tracks, one business promo video, and one sports educational DVD. I guess this is way over my head with my limited experience, but on the other hand I'm learning a lot and it's fun. But it's also wearing down my wallet to get all equipment! I think the projects are coming out really good as far as I can judge, and the customers are satisfied so far. Well, they've not seen the footage yet... ;-)

Don't know about Sweeden but in Czech Republic "Kameraman" means Director of Photography. In U.S. "Cameraman" means camera operator.

Radek

Radek, in Sweden we have the US meaning of the word. Our "kameraman" means camera operator.

I got a degree in Media Production at Newcastle Poly, shich gave me a wonderful grounding in how to make short student films. I don't know if I would classify it as a formal training, which I would think of as an apprentice/on the job training as supplied by the BBC or similar organisation.

Ilearnt a lot more when I worked as a technician in Turkey for both a University Film and TV department and on some film and TV productions which is rather like learning military strategy by being shelled.

No formal photography training for me. I did take a few black and white still photography courses is high school and got some darkroom experience, but that was the total of my education on that front. I'm working on my Ph.D. in Engineering Physics, and did my undergrad and Master's in Eng. Phys. and Physics respectively... so while I've got no official film experiences per se, I'm a professional student/geek... which makes me a target audience for this kind of camera ;)

-Steve

I have found the computer-based training (DVD nowadays) to be a very efficient and cost-effective way of learning almost any subject. Most of these I have used so far is not related to filmmaking. Although I have used several training DVDs for NLEs like FinalCutPro, and one DVD set on lighting. To me, actually seeing how things are setup, and then seeing the resulting video, is as close as one can get to observing a true professional on the job without actually being there. Plus, I can repeat the DVD training as much as I need to fully comprehend the subject, or to come back later for review/refresher.

I have been considering buying some of the more expensive DVD training that costs $100-$400 that cover subjects like directing, blocking, lighting, audio, etc. I think I could buy everything I need for $1,000 to $1,500. While this may sound high to some, it's a lot less than most film schools, and the DVDs could be sold when finished.

I wonder if any of you have used this approach for learning the filmmaking trade, and if so, what you think of it.

While "cameraman" does generally mean "camera operator" particular in the broadcast field, in classic Hollywood terms (which are still in use) the term "cameraman" specifically describes the Director of Photography, with "operating cameraman" and "assistant cameraman/men" applied to the operator and the AC's.

Went backwards
 

Wrote a thesis in communications. Started consulting. Started producing. Decided I wanted to direct. All of a sudden, twenty years later, found myself wanting to film. Now I've hired people 'above me' to do all the management and I go to the field and shoot.
I'm also a published photographer; light, composition and circumstance are a passion.
I'm also a vegan, if you're looking to hold something against me ;-).

i am just a dad, who started to videograhp the kids, about 5-6 years ago. no training just "do it" expirience. first thing i learned was, that a tri-pot is needed for almost everything. next thing i know i became the very best customer of b&h, several tausend dollars gone, and i still need much more. so more i tape, my portfolio gets better, more inquiries, but i lack some very basics about lighting, audio. since most of my shootings are in a theater/ studio setting. the step up from my sony trv 700 to canon xl1s was a expensive but great step.
my local college offers some classes, so i guess i will be a student again.

greetings

I started in television production as a camera assistant and pretty much learned the basics of camera etiquette through trial and error, observation, reading and experimentation. Eventually moved up to writer / producer / director / cameraman and began reading as much as I could: American Cinematographer, Videography, DV, ASC Video Manual, etc.

I tried at every junction to practise what I'd read, and bought a number of books to study: the Filmmaker's Handbook being one of my favorites. I also screened movies, television shows and tried to reproduce what I liked.

Then I got into editing and 2D compositing/finishing, played around with audio sweeting and tried to have a better understanding of how to control audio recording and reproduction. I also directed live (sometimes delayed or to tape) programming and multi-camera shoots.

This was over a period of 11 years and included many 100s of shoots and edits. I'd been exposed to video cameras, editing systems and formats galore: VHS to DigiBeta, Avid to Media100, and also 35mm film (commercials and a couple movies). Eventually I got to the point where I wanted to go to another level and decided to chuck my job and go back to school. I'm presently a Film Production student also studying Psychology (double major).

I think a college education can enhance what experience someone has accrued over the years, but there are many avenues to learning a craft. I've worked with many talented persons who had or didn't have a college education. Dedication, experimentation, the right attitude and a willingness to learn from others are what I've counted as the important ingredients for me.

For those who won't be going to Film School ...
 

Can those of you who have studied film (wether formal eduction or on your own) recommend your favorite books or DVDs for those interested in learning more? Thanks, Shawn

Learning Materials.
 

I think it depends on exactly what you want to learn or specialize in and of course how easily you can practise and master what you learn.

I'm very interested in all aspects of filmmaking (the choice of film or video is irrelevant) so I've done a lot of work on each area over time: not quite the best way to master one thing, but perhaps a good compromise to figure out what you really want to sink your teeth into.

I always read DV Magazine, Videography Magazine, American Cinematographer, POST Magazine and a couple others like Broadcast Engineer, Videomaker, and Fade In. Primarily to stay current and read about innovations, new technology, etc.

In terms of texts or Books I've read which have increased my knowledge of shooting and cinematography that I like: The Five C's of Cinematography, Every Frame a Rembrandt, Single Camera Video Production, The ASC Video Manual, The Filmmaker's Handbook, also Cinematography I've heard good things about (though honestly I haven't read just yet, but it is on my list).

Other books I've read pertain to writing, producing, directing, some include: Writing, Producing, Directing, the Screenwriter Within, Documentary Filmmaking, Story (still need to read this one as well), and a couple others I can't remember right now.

A couple off the wall books like Anatomy for the Artist and Digital Guerilla Filmmaking also helped fill some gaps.

Other things I've studied include training videos for Lightwave 3D, Soft Image 3D, Adobe Premiere, tutorials for After Effects, and lots of tutorials on compositing, blue screen lighting, etc. I also have a DVD Visions of Light which I would recommend.

This list may seem long, but it's really not. There are more things I could list, but if anyone wanted to have the authors I could email them off board. There are many books/materials produced by the AFI which are also great. Check them out.

Finally I've also worked with people who were experts in their field and I tried to learn what I could from them, and to bring myself as close to their level as possible - even if I could never match their ability I learned a lot. This approach helped me particularly with compositing and finishing, color correction, and generally tweaking images to look as you want them to.

I bought the "HandsOn HVD" (www.handsonhdv.com) in order to take my filming to the next step. While I think this DVD is very professionally made, I expected it to cover more. I learned a few things though.

I like this approach, so if there would be more advanced material available I would buy it. I'm also seriously considering to niche my business to making educational videos. I'm doing one right now, and I really like the challenge of describing a subject in an understandable way to a viewer.

How can I, when I used to have the living food/Ann Wigmore lifestyle? :-)

Interesting carrer. I've just started in this business, and when discussing projects with potential customers, I find that I will have to be scriptwriter, cameraman, sound, producer, editor and director all at the same time, since the limited budget doesn't cover extra people. It's very interesting but also puts some mental stress on me.

I thought $10.000 ought to cover what I wanted to do, but I'm not even close. There's always something I lack. I try to use cheap tricks, like poor man's steadicam. I also like cloud cast days, because then I can shoot outdoors, since I lack really good indoor lighting.

Film School or Used Tools???
 

Hello people ;)

Should I go to Film school or just buy used Camera and accessories and learn as i go?

Currently Im in Uni studying Film Studies im still have 1 more year. I am studying Film Theory nothing relating to hands on work. As for the technical side of Film I know a good amount however I want to learn more as we all do.

I was looking at NYFA and LFS (london film school)

Since this forum is so diverse and I am sure someone has been to one of these film schools I would like to know your opinion. Of course attainding FIlm School would be extremely beneficial for me without a doubt. However in this world not all of us are financial independant.

Film tuition for 1 year at NYFA will cost me around 28 000$
Film tuition for 1 year at LFS will cost me around 30 000$

Or should I just buy a used XL2 and accessories - Pratice and make mistakes and learn?

Let me know please.
Thanks,
Joey :)

You aren't going to get into any legit film schools unless you already can demonstrate some skills.

Go buy yourself a cheapish camera with manual control, some lights, a tripod and a good mic. Get some real world practice first. You can have all the theory you want, but unless you can apply it, you've got nothing.

thats a pretty crazy one year film school fee.. use that $$ and buy yourself some gear.. or move here to canada and do film school for cheaper.. if you move to the province of quebec here in canada and become a resident by living there for 6 months you can do film school for extremely cheap in montreal. I have the same thoughts for myself right now.. but i graduated 4 years ago and have purchased a few cameras and upgraded a few times.. i have an xl1s with a 35mm adapter, lots of lenses and a light kit, i would definately like to do film school just to be able to direct more of my time and attention to filmmaking and make some good contacts.. but yeah .. most film school srequire that you demonstrate some skill.. usually they require you to submit a portfolio. buy up a camera.. do some shorts.. get some practice in and then see what you want to do. non reason to thro out all that cash only to realize that its not the move you should have made

Hey Joey, I have learned much more off these boards and off real world experience than I have learned in film school. I suggest reading as many books as you possibly can, watch lots of films, visit these boards, and actually go out and make movies. Good Luck with whatever you choose.

From what I've seen, film school doesn't significantly increase your chances of getting a job. A large portion of the people working in the film/video field don't have relevant degrees. Most of the people graduating with these degrees aren't getting relevant jobs. Most people I've talked to would tell you not to go to film school.

On the other hand, particular programs may be good... I've heard good things about Sheridan's advanced editing course (Sheridan College's Advanced TV & Film master editing class). The owner of PPD (ppd.ca) told me that he favours graduates from that program/course since they have a good base knowledge of Avid editing, so that way he has to provide less training to assistant editors. Sheridan graduates still need training in some basic technical things when they graduate though... so even that education is not as good as it could be.

2- Some film schools you can get into without having a film/video portfolio. The admissions is different between programs. It's not necessarily the most talented or experienced people who make it into these programs.

3- If you can get a paying entry-level job (i.e. assistant anything), take it over film school. At best, film school might help you land one of those entry-level jobs.

Personally, I've rarely taken a formal course on almost anything that taught at a faster pace than I could teach myself (some exceptions, but not many). For me, self education is, on the whole, a much, much faster way to learn (and far less expensive). The advent of the internet has further exaggerated the difference. The key though, is learning, by whatever method works best for the individual.

Dude find a community college that has state of the art equipment spend a whole lot less and find a job while going to community college. Ive had three different jobs throughout my semester at a Community College type of school and so far they have been great. Worked some post productions(all HD stuff), indie films(by students who needed some cheap help cuz all of their money went to paying for college needed an editor who could also lug equipment)......of course this has been what ive been doing, could end up different for other people. Basically what im trying to say is there are many options available and i have to agree now is the time to apply some of your thoery......get in on some low pay/deferred type of work.....to get that real world experience, then after a period of building your portfolio then consider a film school....or maybe by that time you'll be somewhat established, have enough work that you dont even need a film school. good luck....best advice any decision is a good one.....as long as you make one and go for it.

Joey - The obvious question escaped me at first. Do you intend to go into film as a professional, or is a career in video just as attractive to you?

Hey Joey,

I can't say what pro video school looks like, but I can say what a pro audio school gets you:

Nothing.

You graduate with a piece of paper that gives you the possiblity of applying for non-paying internships that *might* turn into paying work after six months of sweeping floors, making coffee, and doing donut runs.

Meanwhile, the school gets to finance all its fancy equipment with student tuition.

Don't get me wrong- the schools are serious and the students learn a LOT that they might otherwise never be exposed to. But the internet, low costs of getting your own equipment, and the sheer value of experience that you can only get from living with your camera all tend to outweigh the film school route in my mind.

Unless you need that piece of paper to try and get into the industry. If so... go for it.

Take care,
Chris

Robert M Wright,

My interest is in Filmaking. For the past 4 years I have been studying Film Theory. I wanted to learn film as a text and understand what is applied in Cinema before I get into production. However that never stopped me of playing around with the camera and so forth and creating shorts. The amount of knowledge I have gained from Film Studies is extremely rewarding for my future in film production.

I suggested to go do a MA for 2 years at Film school. That's around 60 000$ - thats' a little too much.. let me correct that THAT"S ALOT!!!! :)

However attending Film School you can create contacts that's really what I am interested in. I was told that's a rewarding feature you receiving while in film school.

I am confident I dont need 2 years of film school. I learn pretty quick, im constantly reading, the techinique you can learn pretty quick because practise makes perfect, however the theory it can take you forever to learn because you can agree or disagree with it or not even understand it..

I have been thinkin about this non stop for the past 2 weeks - I need to be sure what I do by the end of the summer!

Keep the post coming people :)
Joey!!!

I think there are several different kinds of learning. There's what I'd call "perceptual learning" which is learning about the process and values "Is this a good photograph? What would make it better?" and there's "procedural learning" "What do I do to make a photograph?" Mentors teach the former while schools teach the latter. The one advantage of training in a formal setting is that it gives you a much greater chance of encountering a mentor. But there's no guarantee that will take place in a formal program, it's just the odds are better since you're operating in a community of like-minded people.

For procedural learning, OTOH, I think of formal schools as being unecessary. The thrust of procedural learning is to communicate information rather than to shape thought processes. But information that can be communicated by a person speaking can also be communicated by being written down. If it is available in written form you can read it without a teacher telling you to. Everything you learn from books in school you can also learn from the same books outside of school.

I'll shut this myth down.

How can I put this without sounding jaded...
Wait... I can't...

The only people you will meet in film school are other people with no contacts who are in the same boat as you. You do not need to meet other inexperienced wannabe filmmakers who will end up working at Blockbuster while they spend 5 years writing an unmarketable script, you need to meet people who can actually teach you something, and those people rarely go near film schools for long.

Honestly, I do not have a single contact left from when I was studying film. Everyone I know in the film world came from either meeting on sets, or through film/video oriented communities (like DVinfo!)

YOU WANT TO MAKE CONTACTS? GET A JOB (or volunteer) AT AN EQUIPMENT RENTAL COMPANY!!!

There are so many ways you can get 10x the experience that 2 years of film school will give you, in a fraction of the time, for free (and maybe occasionaly get paid).

Well, how jaded did that come off? It is just my humble opinion of one person who works in a city with one of the biggest film production industries in North America. Other's may disagree, and of course there are always exceptions, especially if you are a brilliant filmmaker with heaps of talent and a fantastic writer (isn't everyone?).
But that's just my two cents.

shut it down baby, shut it down. lol

i did a part time film course at VFS what a waste of fuggin' money and that was back in 96..lol...never again did i ponder about going to a film school
and i'm about to finish my first documentary. I see all these ppl doing filmschool and get in debt, and i just laugh. Cuz they end up working as a PA just to pay it off, u dont nee filmschool to be a PA. JUST DO IT!!!!!! there is a reason why everyone starts of as a lackie, you have to put your time into this field. If u dont want to, what are u even doing here.


Save money, get equipment, make lots and lots of things, do free videos for bands etc etc. In the meantime have a job get your reel, meet ppl, get contact that way it works much better. If you make quality $hit ppl will find you.

Dylan,

By all means be as blunt as you want to be. This is a community and I am interested in everyone's opinion, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this topic.

Like most people I do want to be a Filmmaker - however I am very realistic, Im not focused on making BIG COOL ACTION EXPLOSIVE HOLLYWOOD films, to be honest i dislike such style of films. ( I dont mean to get off Topic) In interested in Neo-Realism films, that means non-professional actors, shoot on location and so forth.

Now that I am almost done Film Studies, I would like to learn as well as expand my knowledge in film techniques, learn about lighting (which i have been reading some amazing posts) as well as cinematography and so forth.

Though yes the best way to start is obviously get a job on a set or something relating to film. I have been trying to look for a job, I just dont know where to look at really. I have emailed some places they never bother emailing back.

I am from Ottawa, Canada - Im in the UK right now on Holidays and I also have dual citizenship in USA-Canada. Somehow I am not interested in working in Hollywood.

BUt if anyone has some ideas please help me out,
Regards
JOey :>

Sorry if this is considered off-topic but is television the same as film where going to school to learn it doesn't help as much as actually going out and doing it? I'm 18 and I'd love to go to a media school (hopefully SAIT in Calgary) in a year or two to further my television career. Of course there's technical information you need to know whether you're working in the TV or film industry, but with film more focused on the artistic side of things and TV requiring a better understanding of advancing technology, could that make TV school more valuable for aspiring shooters/editors/producers/etc than film school for future filmmakers? Artistic abilities are the type of thing where either you've got it or you don't (assuming you want to make your own films). I don't think a school can teach you "it".

A lot of people who take the Ryerson television program in Toronto land jobs at CBC right after graduation. Working for CBC would pretty much be a dream job for me, but I definitely can't afford Ryerson.

Sorry to lead this away from the original discussion. There are a few points to think about, anyway.

yah ryerson is great for TV, most of much music staff is from there lol.

tv studies include(brodacast)
film studies include(motion pictures)

There's lots of people from Ryerson who can't find jobs... I know some of them. Of the people who do land jobs, they're the ones doing lots of stuff outside of school... i.e. internship. You don't need to go to Ryerson to do stuff outside of school.

At best, Ryerson helps you land the better (unpaid) internships and entry-level positions.

Ryerson has two programs, one RTA and the other film studies/image arts. I don't know much about the film studies side, although I suspect it's pretty useless.

2- Mark: Check out the productions that are shooting in Saskatchewan. A lot of them might be hiring for example... i.e. Corner Gas for example was looking for a PA a short while back. Playback Magazine would have listings of productions that are shooting currently, that might be worth checking out. The province also requires that productions bring on trainees to build Saskatchewan's crew base... check out the Saskatchewan training programs.
http://www.playbackmag.com/articles/...0402/crew.html <--a place to start anyways

In my opinion, both require people with good artistic skills and/or technical skills. Film typically is a higher-end work than TV, so some of the technical skills are more specialized and also more demanding when working with a bigger budget.

If I were in your position, I'd try to figure out:
A- Where you want to be. There's different lines of work... basically look through the credits of a show and see what all the roles are. Some roles may be hard to figure out (i.e. Inferno, which is not very descriptive unless you know it's a special effects/compositing system), but ask here and someone will be able to tell you.
Knowing what you would like to do will let you really focus on that and hone your skills at that, so that you're useful on set.
B- Always aim at getting a paying, entry-level job. You may need to do unpaid work (i.e. nepotism doesn't work for you)... which is good for experience, but don't stay too long if they don't pay you (I wouldn't stay longer than 6 months). Look at the training programs Saskatchewan has... that will let you work on the highest-end production being done in your province. Also try to snag a position on the feature films that come to Saskatchewan (i.e. Shall We Dance).

Saskatchewan should be a good place to be, since their industry is currently growing (due to their high tax credits).

3- Film schools and broadcasting courses generally aren't that good at teaching technical skills. When you start working, you'll have to learn the ropes from someone. Sheridan, which seems to have the best program if you want to get into Avid editing, doesn't teach you things like reading an audio meter or waveform monitor... which are technical skills you should know.

I asked if you wanted to go into film as a career, because then maybe it might make sense to go to a film school, because the cost of getting a film camera, and everything else you would need to experiment with actual film, on your own, might get pretty high and maybe not save all that much (certainly compared to the low cost of picking up a good miniDV camera, tapes and a computer, which many people already have). I really don't know.

I do know that I would never consider going to school for film or video. My interest is purely in video, and when I look back at what I've learned in just the last year, with some relatively inexpensive gear, it's hard to think that any school would have taught me anywhere near as much, in that same amount of time (not that I don't have plenty more to learn).