Questioning of Photo Student Challenged

Keith Loh · July 23rd, 2004, 11:19 AM

Bob, he was also told that it was against the law to film or photograph government buildings and the ACLU challenged that and got the answer that it wasn't against the law to do that. The photographer was also told that he would be banned from that place if he didn't comply (even though he knew instinctively that he wasn't required by law to say what his purpose was) which was also untrue. So the Homeland Security agent was lying which is a form of coercion. We may agree right now that the purpose of that was in a good cause (to prevent terrorism), but those sorts of tactics must be challenged because in the future who knows what type of motive *a future* government might have in using such tactics. All of the 9/11 hijackers were Muslims. You could argue that the Homeland Security Agent, to be effective, might want to know whether a photographer or videographer is a Muslim or not. Or in the case of Timothy McVeigh, why not ask everyone whether or not they believe in certain libertarian causes. Well, that is none of the government's business what you might believe in.

Keith Loh · July 23rd, 2004, 11:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson : <<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper :
Although Canada doesn't have secret police, err... Homeland Security, -->>>

<<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson :
Maybe you should.
-->>>

Actually, there is a new joint security department, but this isn't well-known and probably nothing concrete has been done because of the interruption of the Federal Election. And of course any policeman ('Homeland Security' or not) can be undercover and hence, secret.

<<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson :
In fact questioning is not harrassment at all. -->>>

Oh, really? Are you a black man and have you been driving recently through an affluent neighbourhood? I have friends in Washington DC who consider it routine to be stopped for no good reason by police because they are driving a nice car and being in an area where black men are considered by authorities to be potential felons. I have Muslim friends who will go out of their way to not fly into the U.S. if they can help it because of the extra scrutiny. I don't know whether this 'questioning' does in some way act as a deterrent against crime or terrorism, but it sucks if you are those people. They certainly consider it harassment. I had a friend in London who was originally from a Central African country and he told me he would be stopped every week by a Bobby who would pointedly ask how he was doing and whether he needed any help getting some place. An innocent question if you are a tourist and are asked once. But over and over and over when others are not being 'helped' in the same manner, well that is being 'too helpful'.

John Hudson · July 23rd, 2004, 01:23 PM

I see your point Keith and obviously this can turn into a conversaton not wanted nor allowed if not approached with some caution. I am not a black male nor a muslim and its unfortunate that your friends (and others) have to deal with this type of situation. The reality of this is caused by profiling. I use this word carefully as it has proven to be taken advantage of by ignorant persons but the reality is that it is a profile. My father is a cop (19 Years) and I had routinely gone on ride-alongs when I was younger and I have seen people 'pulled over' or 'stopped' for questioning and 'observation. White dudes that looked like tweakers (stoners) again it comes down to profiling. Not all of these dudes had anything to be busted for but they sure looked like they did.

Is it right that your friends have to deal with such non-sense? No of course not but its a few that make it hard for the majority and the sad ignorance and power that is abused by these officers doesnt help the situation nor the problem.

Dylan Couper · July 23rd, 2004, 01:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Belics :
If Canada had a plane ram into their capital building, I'm sure things would change rapidly there, too. -->>>

Rob, things are changing here too due to that incident. Our countries are too closely linked for it not to.

By the way, on your lunch break, feel free to check out this site.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html

Paul and Keith pretty much covered any other points I was going to make, so I'm going to get a beer instead.

Keith Loh · July 23rd, 2004, 02:19 PM

I guess we should steer this back to the videographer domain and how this affects us.

John Hudson · July 23rd, 2004, 02:37 PM

Yeah good idea. Touchy subjects. :/

July 23rd, 2004, 11:19 AM	#16
Keith Loh Air China Pilot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 2,389	Bob, he was also told that it was against the law to film or photograph government buildings and the ACLU challenged that and got the answer that it wasn't against the law to do that. The photographer was also told that he would be banned from that place if he didn't comply (even though he knew instinctively that he wasn't required by law to say what his purpose was) which was also untrue. So the Homeland Security agent was lying which is a form of coercion. We may agree right now that the purpose of that was in a good cause (to prevent terrorism), but those sorts of tactics must be challenged because in the future who knows what type of motive a future government might have in using such tactics. All of the 9/11 hijackers were Muslims. You could argue that the Homeland Security Agent, to be effective, might want to know whether a photographer or videographer is a Muslim or not. Or in the case of Timothy McVeigh, why not ask everyone whether or not they believe in certain libertarian causes. Well, that is none of the government's business what you might believe in. __________________ -- Visit http://www.KeithLoh.com \| stuff about living in Vancouver \| My Flickr photo gallery

July 23rd, 2004, 11:27 AM	#17
Keith Loh Air China Pilot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 2,389	<<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson : <<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper : Although Canada doesn't have secret police, err... Homeland Security, -->>> <<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson : Maybe you should. -->>> Actually, there is a new joint security department, but this isn't well-known and probably nothing concrete has been done because of the interruption of the Federal Election. And of course any policeman ('Homeland Security' or not) can be undercover and hence, secret. <<<-- Originally posted by John Hudson : In fact questioning is not harrassment at all. -->>> Oh, really? Are you a black man and have you been driving recently through an affluent neighbourhood? I have friends in Washington DC who consider it routine to be stopped for no good reason by police because they are driving a nice car and being in an area where black men are considered by authorities to be potential felons. I have Muslim friends who will go out of their way to not fly into the U.S. if they can help it because of the extra scrutiny. I don't know whether this 'questioning' does in some way act as a deterrent against crime or terrorism, but it sucks if you are those people. They certainly consider it harassment. I had a friend in London who was originally from a Central African country and he told me he would be stopped every week by a Bobby who would pointedly ask how he was doing and whether he needed any help getting some place. An innocent question if you are a tourist and are asked once. But over and over and over when others are not being 'helped' in the same manner, well that is being 'too helpful'. __________________ -- Visit http://www.KeithLoh.com \| stuff about living in Vancouver \| My Flickr photo gallery

July 23rd, 2004, 01:55 PM	#19
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Belics : If Canada had a plane ram into their capital building, I'm sure things would change rapidly there, too. -->>> Rob, things are changing here too due to that incident. Our countries are too closely linked for it not to. By the way, on your lunch break, feel free to check out this site. http://www.members.shaw.ca/kcic1/cdnwtc.html Paul and Keith pretty much covered any other points I was going to make, so I'm going to get a beer instead. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

July 23rd, 2004, 02:19 PM	#20
Keith Loh Air China Pilot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Posts: 2,389	I guess we should steer this back to the videographer domain and how this affects us. __________________ -- Visit http://www.KeithLoh.com \| stuff about living in Vancouver \| My Flickr photo gallery

July 23rd, 2004, 01:23 PM	#18
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	I see your point Keith and obviously this can turn into a conversaton not wanted nor allowed if not approached with some caution. I am not a black male nor a muslim and its unfortunate that your friends (and others) have to deal with this type of situation. The reality of this is caused by profiling. I use this word carefully as it has proven to be taken advantage of by ignorant persons but the reality is that it is a profile. My father is a cop (19 Years) and I had routinely gone on ride-alongs when I was younger and I have seen people 'pulled over' or 'stopped' for questioning and 'observation. White dudes that looked like tweakers (stoners) again it comes down to profiling. Not all of these dudes had anything to be busted for but they sure looked like they did. Is it right that your friends have to deal with such non-sense? No of course not but its a few that make it hard for the majority and the sad ignorance and power that is abused by these officers doesnt help the situation nor the problem.

July 23rd, 2004, 02:37 PM	#21
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	Yeah good idea. Touchy subjects. :/