Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

So if this doesn't need a bowl adapter then the price is much the same. As for the weight, I can't find the weight of the 75mm bowl adapter anywhere, but that must take up some (my guess is about 150-200g) of the difference.


Yes, if it wasn't for that, I'd still be not even considering this style of legs.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Richard, how much force is required to operate the leg section locks? Do you think a six or seven year old child would have any problems?

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

To diverge for a minute, what's the consensus on Miller systems?

For me, the major advantage is that I can buy in Australia, which means quite a significant price saving.

However, the only model I can find that comes roughly within my criteria is this one:

System: DS10 Solo DV Carbon Fibre System (1511) - Miller Camera Support

It pushes my weight limit a bit (4.85kg), but to give an idea, to buy it from B&H, by the time shipping, tax and exchange rate are added, would cost me AUS$2040, but from an Australian store it would be AUS$1460, delivered. A massive difference.

Spec-wise, it looks good, and Miller seem to be well regarded.

I'll phone the store and ask some questions on Monday, but of course, they are going to be biased and tell me it's the best thing ever. :-)

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Hi Michael,

With all the praise being heaped on the Gitzo legs I thought I should have a look at a set if they were on view anywhere in Melbourne. Vanbar have the GT2532S Systematic on special at $880 (AUD incl GST). Given the value of our dollar at the moment this seems to be a better price than B&H and especially so if your B&H order attracts GST.

As a matter of interest what is weight of the camera you are considering?

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

That's funny you should ask about the Miller Michael, I was just thinking about that myself today as I was packing away my DS10 with CF Solo legs.
The DS10 head does not have much in the way of adjustability, just two settings for the counterbalance. Of course if your camera can be balanced well on this head, it is a beautifully smooth head. I have had mine for almost 10 years, & when I took it out & used it last week, I was pleasantly surprised with how smooth it still is. I was using it with my little Canon XA20 for which I have a 2.2x tele-converter. With the converter on, the focal length is like using a roughly 1200mm lens in 35mm terms. It was a joy to use & if you were looking at a camera similar in weight to the XA 20, I would certainly have no qualms in recommending it. Since you are looking at something a little bigger & heavier, I would be more inclined to look into the Compass 12 head. Far more adjustability both in counterbalance, & also in drag adjustment for both pan & tilt. That adjustability along with the added weight range, should allow you to balance a physically bigger camera far better than on the DS10 head. This is probably more important using the camera in the rainforest, as I am assuming a lot of your subject matter is in the trees so a lot of shots looking up above.
On the subject of the Gitzo CF legs, I would have to say there should be no problem for a 7 year old to turn the collar to lock & unlock the legs. They have a system they call their "G-Lock Design. Here from the B&H website: "G-Lock Design The G-Lock mechanism has been completely redesigned in order to achieve a 20% increase in rigidity, faster operation and stronger, safer locking. G-Lock's special design also provides a "gravity lock" effect: the higher the load applied vertically to the leg, the stronger the lock."
While I think the solo type legs of Miller & the Gitzo's I have been talking about are excellent for both high & very low shots, it is not just the height range that makes these legs so great to use in these challenging environments. The flexibility these legs give you in setups is what makes them so good in my opinion. Not only can you go from a normal standing height on level ground, to a very low angle shot on level ground, (way lower than any tripod legs with a spreader) but you can do all that on pretty much any terrain you can scramble up (or down) The angle of each leg can be set differently & you can literally set these things up anywhere! Honestly, once you have used a set of these legs in any steep & or challenging terrain, you will wonder how you ever did without them.
I am not trying to persuade you to buy one system over another, just simply trying share with you my own experience & I am sure there are lots of others around that can share with you their experiences with other tripod systems.
Regards,
Bryce

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

That is a good price. I'd prefer to buy in Australia if possible.

Anything over US$890 including shipping will have to have GST added, so anything I'm looking at will be more.

One thing, though; every time I look at a picture of those legs I find it hard to imagine them not flexing badly. They look so thin.


I won't be able to handle anything more than 4kg total, hopefully much less. The front-runner at the moment is the PX270 which hasn't had specs released, but I expect it would be similar to the HPX250, which is well under 3kg.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Unfortunately, at 6.5kg it's just too heavy.

Thanks again for your contributions.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Hi Michael,

Here are some pictures of TraillPod Mark 3 that I described in an earlier post. It is set-up in low mode. Total weight including TM 900 is ~ 3.6 kg. Each leg has a fixed length for both stiffness and simplicity. The angles that the legs make to one another are fixed but height can be adjusted by repositioning the clamp block. As mentioned the legs have different diameters and telescope one into the other forming a ‘staff’. The last picture shows the set-up partly dismantled. Everything can be removed.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/images/a...1&d=1387690130

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Nicely made setup. Good to see someone else who likes making their own accessories.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

There is no one there until the second week of January, so I'll need to call back then.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

You are buying a beautiful high build quality side mount head with a decent length QR plate. Why add the weight of the Manfrotto plate? Just get more Sachtler QR plates.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I wouldn't be adding the Manfrotto bracket.

My problem (which I feel must surely be quite common) is that I want to be able to take the camera off the tripod and mount it on a stabilizer (and other mounts I might possibly invent in the future), so I need a QR bracket that takes the same plate as the head.

According to Chris, the Manfrotto plate and bracket are compatible with the Sachtler FSB4 and FSB6.

I sent an email to Miller asking if there was a solution to this for their tripods, either from them or another manufacturer, but have not had a reply yet. I guess they are closed until some time in the new year.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I found an 8-year old kid who had no trouble tightening the leg locks on my Gitzo sticks.



Mark Watson

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

LOL! Excellent! Thanks, Mark. :)

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I received a reply from Miller. They do have a compatible QR bracket; the 313:
Special mounts: QR Adaptor Plate (313) - Miller Camera Support

So that's another point in Miller's favour.

I had a good long talk to someone at an Australian store, and when I described the old Miller heads I used to use 30 years ago he said the modern ones are very different. I came away not knowing what to think.

But I assume the basic design of all this range of heads is very similar.

So the questions are:

Is the Gitzo CF legs + FSB4 better than the Miller Solo CF and DS10 head? Especially considering it will cost me nearly $600 more.

Will a head that lists a weight range of 2.5kg to 5kg be completely unusable with only a 1.5kg camera? If so, then I may as well wait until I get the camera I intend using. The reason I wanted to get the tripod sooner is because I'm sick of fighting with my current system, but if I will still have to fight with the new one I may as well wait.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

The Gitzo / Sachtler FSB combination is superb. If you bought it, you would be happy. Very happy. Day after day.

Is it worth the extra cost, for you? I cannot say.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I think I would be happy with it, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't also be happy with the Miller. They have a good name too. And I was wrong about the price difference. The Gitzo/Sachtler would be about $900 more. $2362 v $1460.

Spec wise, nothing jumps out at me as being that much better, if at all.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

The value (to me) of the Gitzo / Sachtler combo is not in the specs - it is in the handling, and the rock solid foundation, and in the perfect pans with no wind-up or backlash, and the quality of the build. These items are not found in specs.

However, the Miller combo might be just fine, and the price difference is significant. It is unfortunate that you can't see and try both in person.

Alas, I am of no further help. I wish you well in your decision.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Indeed.

These 2 systems are much closer in price at B&H. What makes the Miller so attractive is that there is a store in Australia that has it for a very good price with free shipping until the end of January.

Thanks for all your input.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Seems this thread has done significantly more than its allotted laps, tho' guess that was inevitable given its title, there being no such critter and all.

Back to basics.

Existing scenario:

Exceedingly average sticks + ditto head + 600 mm lens = exceedingly average video + totally shagged

Currently Proposed Scenario:

1:1:1:? sticks + untried head + 600 mm lens = who the heck knows (but you wouldn't catch me using it for a parachute).

Reality Check Scenario:

Vinten Vb (x) tester 2:2:1 sticks & head combo + Manfrotto 520ball + Manfrotto 128LP exceedingly average head + 600 mm lens = well, at least there's some decent sticks under it, take it from there.

Logic:

1. Both of the first two components of the CPS are potential "buy it and weep" units, not a good look.

2. The sticks under the Vb series are darn good, and they're FREE testers!

3. You need a 520BALL 75Mm Bowl With Knob 520BALL - Other | Manfrotto to use your current head with any 75 mm bowl sticks anyway.

4. If the RCS doesn't work (as if!), send the Vinten back with thanks, but........and we take this thread for a couple of additional laps and see if we can kill it.


CS

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Indeed. No matter what I choose, I will have to make significant compromises.


Do you have a specific model in mind? Everything I can find is quite heavy (compared to the Gitzo CF or Miller Solo CF).

From other research I've done since starting this thread, it seems that for a single person crew, shooting wildlife, single leg tripods are the most common type used. The flexibility of operation far outweighs the slight increase in windup. And I can think of some of the situations that I get my current tripod in that a normal MLS video tripod would not be able to cope with.

I'll try to get the Australian store to offer to take the Miller system back if I find it unsuitable. If so, then my only risk is the freight cost.

The Miller system I'm looking at gets reasonable reviews:
Miller SOLO DV10 Carbon Fiber Tripod System 1511 B&H Photo Video

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Here is a thought. One of the reviewers of the Miller system (on B&H site) that downgraded his opinion over time is in Denver. If he was willing (and it might be useful to him as well), I would offer to loan him one of my Gitzo / Sachter systems for a week or two (or three) and see what he says.

I had been contemplating sending Chris S. one of my systems for a DVInfo review but that will probably not happen soon enough, and I have no idea if Chris S. would even be interested.

Let me know if this is of interest.

(Disclaimer - I have nothing to disclaim. I am just a user / customer of the products, and would like to help the DV Info collective knowledge base)

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Wow, yet another lap.........

Michael:

I keep seeing different system weights from you, so no model can be specifically pinpointed for a TESTER Vinten system.

Whatever you currently have will have to be it, and let Andrew at Vinten specify the system. The sticks under the Vb(x) heads are all exactly the same, so it matters not.

The reason for my last post, in case you haven't worked it out, is to establish a baseline for usability at the least possible cost to you and avoiding, if at all possible, the "buy it and weep" scenario so many people find themselves in.

With the test Vinten and the Manfrotto 520ball, you can test not only the full Vinten, but the Vinten sticks with your existing head, then work out what, if anything gives you the best bang for your buck.

This is based on my experience with both cheap/ expensive heads and cheap/ expensive sticks.

1.Cheap sticks under cheap heads = crap

2.Cheap sticks under good heads = not much better, but better

3.Good sticks under cheap heads = better than 2.

4.Good sticks under good heads = bliss

Good luck getting the vendor to promise to take back (and refund) a purchased system is it doesn't suit, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid here, and that's exactly where you go with either the Solo's or the Gitzos.

As for reviews, they're only meaningful if they're relevant to your shooting circumstances, how the heck will you know unless you have a benchmark?

However, if you want to know why, exactly, I'm pretty dubious of 1:1:1:? sticks, read post #199 (yep, 199!) of this, er, my thread http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-s...ootout-14.html (especially the pdf's therein) and check out the rigidity tests (cool graphs, huh?) of the tripods in question, the worst, from memory, were the Sachtler 2:1:1's.

Based on that, I have little faith in straight 1's top to bottom.

Richard:

great thought, though to make any comparison meaningful I'd really need both a Gitzo and a Solo system to get a feel for a winner.

The forensic tests I did for my shootout reviews won't even get a look in till I've got this damn new bionic knee functioning more like a knee and less like a toaster/ skateboard/ PITA.


CS

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Chris:

By 1:1:1 do you mean singe tube for each leg section?

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Yep.


CS

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Chris:

This is why you need to try the Gitzo Series 3 CF legs yourself, whether the Miller system is available or not.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I started wanting as light as possible, specifying that 4kg would be ideal, and expressing doubt that I would be able to get anything "good" at that weight.

As I have gained more data, thanks to you and other posters here, I have accepted that I may have to go slightly higher and have only gone as high as 4.85kg.

I do understand that, but am not comfortable asking for a loan, knowing it will not be suitable going in. We all know that a solid, heavy system will be stable, but I can't go there because I won't be able to carry it in the rainforest.

My only baseline for a good system is the very heavy Miller tripods and heads of 30+ years ago. These were very good. I often had 3 cameras (two 16mm and one video) mounted to the same head, tracking horse races from the other side of the track. One of the 16mm cameras and the video camera had an equivalent angle of view of about 1200mm. These were rock steady and smooth.

I have not laid hands on anything even half decent since. I hoped (and still do) that modern materials and manufacturing have improved the weight/performance ratio.

When I started this thread, I had completely discounted the possibility of using photo-style 1:1:1 sticks, but a couple of people have commented that some of them are quite good, all things considered. At the same time, my other research indicated that other people found this style a good compromise for difficult environments where spreader systems become restrictive. I've read many of your posts on this forum and noticed that you have been unable to test any of these stick. So this is the only area where my requirements have changed since the start of this thread.

I hope to be able to come in under $2K, but this is not a hard limit. But it has to be worth it to me, since this is just a hobby for me I can't just make the cost back.


I understand that, but the sticks being discussed here have a much larger tube diameter, which must surely count for something.

The bottom line is that between what I've learned here, and my discussion with the store in Brisbane (who, incidentally, didn't rave-up the Miller or Sachtler at this weight level, so I felt he was being honest), I've come to the conclusion that the Gitzo/Sachtler or Miller systems will be the best compromise for me.

I'm not expecting perfection (and never was), but I am hoping for significant gains on what I've been using.

I don't have a direct comparison between these 2 systems, but everything I've read leads me to believe that there isn't a massive difference between them, not enough to justify a $900 difference in price.

I will hold off until the end of the month before purchasing, partly because my wife has just had knee surgery and if that hasn't fixed her knee, then my rainforest trekking days will be numbered.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Although it would be of some help, I wouldn't feel comfortable with either you or the Miller owner going to that much trouble just for me. Also, unless a direct comparison was made with scientific tests, similar to what Chris did on his reviews, there is too much risk that the results might be skewed.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Lots of activity.... Zero progress....

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Really?

After posting yesterday I discovered that the total weight quoted for the Miller systems includes the bag and strap, so it does come out exactly at my ideal 4kg. This also brings a system based on the Compass 12 head within the realm of possibility at 4.8kg, and that does look like a much better head. Both Alister Chapman and Philip Bloom seem to like them in this class.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/785054-REG/Miller_1870_Solo_DV_2_Stage_Carbon.html
Although the weight is stated as 6.7kg, the legs and head come to 4.8kg. I'm waiting for Miller to get back to me at the moment to make sure that is correct.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Sorry.

It is truly a shame you can't compare systems in person.

Good luck with your purchase.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Michael,
Sorry I haven't been able to offer any help in the last little while. I have been in Melbourne visiting my daughter & grandson with no internet.
If you can possibly stretch your weight limits to accommodate the Miller compass 12 head, that would be the way I would go. As I have said in a previous post, the problem with the DV10 head is that the head has a very limited adjustment in both counterbalance, & drag. The Compass 12 fixes that, & from what I have read, fixes it well. I have both the Miller CF legs & the Gitzo, & I think you would be happy with either.
Of course, I could say the same about the Sachtler head.
I think you are of the right mind when you talk about having to make a compromise with this setup. Without a personal Sherpa to carry your gear, the perfect solution would be back breaking.
Regards,
Bryce

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Bryce:

Are your Gitzo legs System 2 (GT2 something) or System 3 (GT3 something)?

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

They're system 3 legs with a 100mm bowl. The leg sections are approximately 1 1/2" in diameter at the top. (That's just a guess though, as I don't have them near me at the moment)

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Bryce,
I think you have Series 5 Carbon 100mm bowl model! I have Series 3 and just took a leg measurement at the top section. Only 30mm (1.25 inches). I remember you posting about them about a year and a half ago. I'm betting they're either model GT5532LS or GT5532S. If you go to the Gitzo site, you will find these under the "Photography" section and not in the "Video" section. I really like the FSB-6/Gitzo leg combination. Yes, it's a compromise, isn't everything? Lighter weight gear makes a difference if you have to hand carry it all day. If wind up is evident, I can minimize that by holding the pan rod a few seconds at the end of a panning shot.

GT5532 | B&H Photo Video

(While I have the calipers handy, my Series 2, model GT2542LS legs are 26mm at the top.)

Mark

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

A compromise perhaps. However, I have not experienced wind-up or resulting back lash with Gitzo Series 3 legs and Sachtler FSB fluid heads. Cameras are Canon XA20, XF100, 5D Mark III, and 7D.

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

I can believe that. I didn't notice any wind up until I had my XL-H1A with Canon EF Adapter XL, 1.4x extender and a 100-400mm zoom lens mounted up on it. The 35mm equivalent of that combination is something over 3,000mm. Just barely touching the camera can cause lots of jiggling of the image. I also use the Gitzo/Sachtler with the XF305, 7D and HV30 and only notice any wind up if I have the drag set real high.

Mark

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

Mark, thank you so much for picking up that mistake, they are indeed series 5 legs!
I just looked up the order from B&H. These are the ones: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/846219-REG/Gitzo_GT5532S_GT5532S_6x_3_SEC_SYSTEMATIC.htmlSorry to you Michael, & anyone else that I may have mislead. I still stand by the legs though, they are rock solid.
As for the Miller CF legs, I still stand by those also. Are they a compromise? Of course they are. With long lens work, anything short of a block of concrete is going to be. The most important thing in my opinion is to go for the best gear you can afford, then learn to use it to the best of your ability. I think that regardless of what tripod system you use, learning to use it well will make a big difference to your shots.
Regards,
Bryce

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

True story:

In Denver today, I was walking down the 16th Street Mall (a prominent pedestrian mall) at lunch time, and I encountered a videographer shooting some of the interesting buildings in downtown Denver. When I got closer, I saw that he was using a Sachtler FSB6 on Gitzo carbon fiber legs (and obviously a 75mm bowl). His camera appeared to be a Canon C100 with a white telephoto lens ( probably a 70-200). I commented to him that I found his choice of fluid head and legs interesting. He said "I would not use anything else". I asked him if he encountered windup or resulting whiplash and he replied "No, not all".

Re: Good Lightweight Tripod System
 

That's good news.

I've settled on the Miller Compass 12 head and Solo 75 legs
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/785054-REG/Miller_1870_Solo_DV_2_Stage_Carbon.html

And this QR adapter so I can use the same QR plate on my stabilizer.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/742493-REG/Miller_1213_Solopod_QR_Adaptor_Plate.html

My wife sees the surgeon again tomorrow to find out how it went. If the prognosis is good, I'll order them. If not, I'll wait until we know more. No point is pending $2K and having the tripod sit in it's box for months.