slo mo comparison video at DVinfo.net

Dale Guthormsen · February 24th, 2009, 03:11 PM

This topic always comes up and is one of my favorite areas for the video I work with.

I made this comparison of the effects as it effects flying birds.

1/60 time stretch & 60 interpolated to 60 p then play rate changed

Also is a clip shot at 1/180 this still shows the wing flicker, the goal of course is to get single wing movemnet more like what our eye interprets/ impression.

I made this for someone else bu thought others may find it intersting to some degree.

Slo motion comparison on Vimeo

Jonathan Ramsey · March 2nd, 2009, 10:28 AM

Thanks for sharing this. For me, the "1/60th playrate .5" is the better for what you're trying to do. The 52% playrate gives the birds a look of having four wings at times.

So, can you explain what you are doing exactly (and in what software) when you say 1/60th playrate at .5? Thanks.

Good idea to post this.

Ramsey

Annie Haycock · March 2nd, 2009, 11:05 AM

Dale - I just watched your secret water video of ducks and geese - and you have no wing flicker. What shutter speed were you using there? I have some clips of geese without flicker, but they were shot when I first got the camera and was using it in auto mode - my philosophy with a new camera is to find out what it can do before I start telling it what I want done differently. However, that does mean that I don't know what shutter speed or other settings it was using. For the next lot of shots, I was using shutter priority but realised later that I was altering the shutter speed inadvertently, so still don't know what settings I was using!! Not good.

Dale Guthormsen · March 7th, 2009, 03:13 PM

Jon, Annie,

I edit in premiere pro and Vegas 8.0. to be honest the more I use vegas the less i use PP.

I do all of my slo motion in Vegas.

I shoot everything 1/60th to 1/100. Generally I prefer the look of the 1/60 for time stretching ( this is the adding of duplicate frames which slows the playback rate down)

I would always shoot Progressive in the past as Interlacing caused me troubles with wing flicker.

Sense 60 Interlaced is supposed to give me slightly better resolution it was suggested to shoot in 60I and then make the project Progressive and to use inpolate fields instead of Blend. the program then builds the half frames (Vegas does this extremely well). then your program is running 60 full frames a second.
Now you right click on the video clip, at the bottom of the menu is Properties for that clip. Locate play rate and set it to what ever you want to give you an image that is created from the 60 images.

I thought this would allow me to be able to shoot at a faster shutter speed and have nicer slo motion because of a slightly clearer image to work from.

My experiments shooting faster did not materialize like I had hoped, I still see wing flicker, I hate that.
However if I shoot at the slower shutter rate I do think that the 60 frame method gives a little better image than a time stretched image.

With Vegas and the velocity envelope it interpolates the necessary images. This one of the reasons I moved toward vegas. If you do this with progressive footage it has to build full frames, as apposed to building half frames on the deinterlaced footage. Becasue every image half of the image is native.

At least that is my take on things at this point.

Also, in Vegas you can use the combination of play rate and then use velocity envelope. I have messed with that a bit and if you like I could make some comparisons and post them at my vimeo site.

Hope I answered your questions.

I found the original thread

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happ...ml#post1000013

Dale Bohlke · March 8th, 2009, 07:39 AM

Dale, I enjoyed the comparisons and it brought to mind the variable we have no control over: the wing speed of different bird species. From my experience the slower moving wings are much easier to smooth out. I wonder if anyone has tried various techniques with an individual species to determine what works best?
Dale

Dale Guthormsen · March 11th, 2009, 06:59 PM

Dale,

I agree, I primarily shoot waterfowl, falcons and i can shoot pigeons (rollers or homers). If you like I will do some comparisons on pigeons, they have a farely fast wing beat and that tends to be the bigger problems.

the variables seem to be the following:

Interlaced: slow shutter small aperature (1/60th)
medium shutter (1/250th)
Fast shutter 1/500th to 1/1000

Progressive same shutter speeds.

Interlaced/ to deinterlaced/ interpolated same shutter speeds

same as above, blendfed fields.

Time stretched (added frames)

Interpolated fields.

At this point I know nothing that can change anything other than the software twixtor!!

dale

Sam Mendolia · March 16th, 2009, 08:42 AM

Annie, this may help you find the settings of your original footage.

DVMP Basic - view datacode/datecode, timecode, date/time, and exposure details in DV AVI files

It has helped me in the same way.

Annie Haycock · March 16th, 2009, 03:14 PM

Sam - many thanks for the link, that's exactly what I was looking for. I downloaded the free version, and tried it on some old stuff from my Canon XM2/GL2. I really need the HDV (pro) version, and will download that when I get a new computer in a couple of months - this current computer seems to be struggling with the video these days.

February 24th, 2009, 03:11 PM	#1
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	slo mo comparison video This topic always comes up and is one of my favorite areas for the video I work with. I made this comparison of the effects as it effects flying birds. 1/60 time stretch & 60 interpolated to 60 p then play rate changed Also is a clip shot at 1/180 this still shows the wing flicker, the goal of course is to get single wing movemnet more like what our eye interprets/ impression. I made this for someone else bu thought others may find it intersting to some degree. Slo motion comparison on Vimeo __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

March 2nd, 2009, 10:28 AM	#2
Jonathan Ramsey Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 32	Nice, thank you Thanks for sharing this. For me, the "1/60th playrate .5" is the better for what you're trying to do. The 52% playrate gives the birds a look of having four wings at times. So, can you explain what you are doing exactly (and in what software) when you say 1/60th playrate at .5? Thanks. Good idea to post this. Ramsey __________________ Jonathan Ramsey director/producer treeline film company colorado

March 2nd, 2009, 11:05 AM	#3
Annie Haycock Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pembrokeshire, Wales Posts: 734	Dale - I just watched your secret water video of ducks and geese - and you have no wing flicker. What shutter speed were you using there? I have some clips of geese without flicker, but they were shot when I first got the camera and was using it in auto mode - my philosophy with a new camera is to find out what it can do before I start telling it what I want done differently. However, that does mean that I don't know what shutter speed or other settings it was using. For the next lot of shots, I was using shutter priority but realised later that I was altering the shutter speed inadvertently, so still don't know what settings I was using!! Not good. __________________ Canon XH A1; Canon XF100; Nikon D800

March 7th, 2009, 03:13 PM	#4
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Jon, Annie, I edit in premiere pro and Vegas 8.0. to be honest the more I use vegas the less i use PP. I do all of my slo motion in Vegas. I shoot everything 1/60th to 1/100. Generally I prefer the look of the 1/60 for time stretching ( this is the adding of duplicate frames which slows the playback rate down) I would always shoot Progressive in the past as Interlacing caused me troubles with wing flicker. Sense 60 Interlaced is supposed to give me slightly better resolution it was suggested to shoot in 60I and then make the project Progressive and to use inpolate fields instead of Blend. the program then builds the half frames (Vegas does this extremely well). then your program is running 60 full frames a second. Now you right click on the video clip, at the bottom of the menu is Properties for that clip. Locate play rate and set it to what ever you want to give you an image that is created from the 60 images. I thought this would allow me to be able to shoot at a faster shutter speed and have nicer slo motion because of a slightly clearer image to work from. My experiments shooting faster did not materialize like I had hoped, I still see wing flicker, I hate that. However if I shoot at the slower shutter rate I do think that the 60 frame method gives a little better image than a time stretched image. With Vegas and the velocity envelope it interpolates the necessary images. This one of the reasons I moved toward vegas. If you do this with progressive footage it has to build full frames, as apposed to building half frames on the deinterlaced footage. Becasue every image half of the image is native. At least that is my take on things at this point. Also, in Vegas you can use the combination of play rate and then use velocity envelope. I have messed with that a bit and if you like I could make some comparisons and post them at my vimeo site. Hope I answered your questions. I found the original thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happ...ml#post1000013 __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen Last edited by Dale Guthormsen; March 7th, 2009 at 05:53 PM.

March 11th, 2009, 06:59 PM	#6
Dale Guthormsen Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 3,048	Dale, I agree, I primarily shoot waterfowl, falcons and i can shoot pigeons (rollers or homers). If you like I will do some comparisons on pigeons, they have a farely fast wing beat and that tends to be the bigger problems. the variables seem to be the following: Interlaced: slow shutter small aperature (1/60th) medium shutter (1/250th) Fast shutter 1/500th to 1/1000 Progressive same shutter speeds. Interlaced/ to deinterlaced/ interpolated same shutter speeds same as above, blendfed fields. Time stretched (added frames) Interpolated fields. At this point I know nothing that can change anything other than the software twixtor!! dale __________________ DATS ALL FOLKS Dale W. Guthormsen

March 8th, 2009, 07:39 AM	#5
Dale Bohlke Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Ulm, MN Posts: 28	Dale, I enjoyed the comparisons and it brought to mind the variable we have no control over: the wing speed of different bird species. From my experience the slower moving wings are much easier to smooth out. I wonder if anyone has tried various techniques with an individual species to determine what works best? Dale

March 16th, 2009, 08:42 AM	#7
Sam Mendolia Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 217	Annie, this may help you find the settings of your original footage. DVMP Basic - view datacode/datecode, timecode, date/time, and exposure details in DV AVI files It has helped me in the same way. __________________ I was told I have no vision, but boy do I see great!

March 16th, 2009, 03:14 PM	#8
Annie Haycock Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pembrokeshire, Wales Posts: 734	Sam - many thanks for the link, that's exactly what I was looking for. I downloaded the free version, and tried it on some old stuff from my Canon XM2/GL2. I really need the HDV (pro) version, and will download that when I get a new computer in a couple of months - this current computer seems to be struggling with the video these days. __________________ Canon XH A1; Canon XF100; Nikon D800