Intrusive Camera Operators

[Noa Put]

In Church when the priest speaks it is generally not accepted to walk around, it's not the first time I've seen a priest just stopping the ceremony and asking the photog to stop moving when he talks.
I work more or less the same way as Vito when doing the church recording and only move when they play music. Thats when I make the creative shots or film the guests. When they put on the rings, light the candle or sign the book then it's allowed to get real close. Running around with steadycam in the church is something that won't be accepted here.
During the rest of the day I try to take enough distance so they don't see me filming and use the zoom but if necessary I'm standing beside the couple if something important is happening. I do try to consider where I stand so the guests can also see what is happening but that's not always possible.
Also as Travis said try to see how a guest reacts to you filming him/her, if they clearly give you a signal that they don't like it, don't film them again up close.

I found it funny though reading about speaking when filming, sometimes people come up to me when I'm filming and start talking to me. If I capturing something important I ignore them and usually they shut up but most of the time you have to stop filming and make some polite conversation. I have made it a habit from the beginning never to speak when I'm filming.

[Chris Davis]

I always asked the B&G how well they wanted us hidden. A few have requested NO visible camera operators during the ceremony (which means unattended cameras or only shooting from the back.) One bride's mother was legally blind - she could only see a foot or so in front of her. The bride said, "I don't care how obtrusive you have to be and I don't care how many people see you, I want faces on my video!" This was so the mother could later watch the video.

[Yang Wen]

LOL yes so if the venue goes dark, we can still rock out a video for them.. "The darkest wedding of the year" Where all the activities will be under a spot light from the videographer's camera.

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

Now that is FUNNY. I can't imagine doing that, I mean I at least put my gas powered generator on wheels so I can keep my cable runs down to a minimum. Never can be too safe.
I don't see how someone can call themselves professional if they don't use a generator (never know when the power might go out) and keep it on wheels at all times so that it's within arm's reach.

[Bill Busby]

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

For the vows, I come off tripod and move to centre. Then back to tripod.

Off tripod for the signing. Then run around, and back up in front of the B&G for the recessional with the photographer.

Yikes! If you did all that here in So Cali you would be blacklisted... banned... put on a hitlist... etc etc :D

[Vito DeFilippo]

Originally Posted by Bill Busby

Yikes! If you did all that here in So Cali you would be blacklisted... banned... put on a hitlist... etc etc :D

Yeah, I've noticed from reading other posts that officiants/venues seem much more uptight about moving around there than here. We're pretty much left to do as we wish as long as we're not jerks about it. The Catholic priests just want us to not come up to the altar during the ceremony.

Usually I'm fighting for position with the twenty family members that are doing the same thing...

During the signing we come right up top. The photog often rearranges the flowers on the altar, poses the couple with the priest, etc.

As long as we check with the priest before the ceremony and ask about any restrictions, they're happy.

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Yeah, I've noticed from reading other posts that officiants/venues seem much more uptight about moving around there than here.

Case in point for me. I did a wedding at a church and got permission to film from the front pew right at the center aisle. I was told I couldn't move, though, meaning I would have to film the entire 25-minute ceremony handheld. I did it, and everything seemed fine (except my arms afterwards, lol).

A few months later I show up at the church for another wedding, and I'm asked for my business card so they can put me on the blacklist. I was shocked obviously, because I had followed their rules. Apparently, though, they were upset that I "leaned" out into the aisle during the bridal entrance. Nevermind the fact that I only leaned out about 10" to get a shot of the bride coming down the aisle, and that everyone in the church was standing and turned around looking at the bride. Ridiculous.

I explained that I never moved from my position, and that was the rule that I had agreed to. Nobody ever said anything about leaning. Jeez. I'm happy to say I was let off the hook with a "warning" after speaking rationally with the head pastor.

[Vito DeFilippo]

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

Apparently, though, they were upset that I "leaned" out into the aisle during the bridal entrance.

Travis, that's amazing! I didn't realize they were THAT uptight.

You know, the only reaction I ever got from a priest was a Portuguese wedding a year or two ago where, at the end of the ceremony, he made a point of congratulating myself and the photographer for being so sensitive and unobtrusive during the ceremony. He actually made everyone clap for us. Makes me wonder what the OTHER shooters are doing...

Other than that, they don't say much beyond giving a few restrictions.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

Nevermind the fact that I only leaned out about 10" to get a shot of the bride coming down the aisle, and that everyone in the church was standing and turned around looking at the bride.

You have to agree Travis that a 10" leaning angle is a bit over the top, in Belgium you would get arrested for this type of behavior. :)

That is really ridiculous, here I also know of one priest who warns me and the Photog before the ceremony starts that we are not allowed to move when he speaks or he will stop the ceremony. If i know I have to film there I warn the bridescouple that they can accept footage from mostly one angle in church and that they have to live with that.
Sometimes I move a little bit with my tripod, just to get a better view on some of the guests and even if i move at only 2 frames per second I see the priest peeking at me giving me the bad eye. :D

What does it mean if they put you on the "black list"? Never heared of that, do they have the right to refuse you?

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Travis, that's amazing! I didn't realize they were THAT uptight.

Most of the churches aren't that bad. This one is just that way. But most of the churches are still pretty restrictive.

[Jason Robinson]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

What does it mean if they put you on the "black list"? Never heared of that, do they have the right to refuse you?

That is a good question. I would imagine all they could do is raise a stink at the next wedding, but since the contract for the venue is between the B/G & church, then there would have to be a reference in that contract that specifically gives the church the ability to reject any vendors.

Could the church refuse to allow a ceremony to proceed with Vendor "X" because of imagined or real infraction in the past? Hard to say. That would be some horrible PR for the location...... but in this case, the location Travis is mentioning is sought after and booked far in advance, so chances are, the church would get its way. Like it or not. Then there is the attitude around here that "its only video" which contributes to downplaying the significance of our trade.

This isn't to say that the photographers have it any easier at the church, but when they move / shuffle in their seats, it is easier because they are using smaller equipment and can be more discrete about it.

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by Jason Robinson

That is a good question. I would imagine all they could do is raise a stink at the next wedding, but since the contract for the venue is between the B/G & church, then there would have to be a reference in that contract that specifically gives the church the ability to reject any vendors.

Could the church refuse to allow a ceremony to proceed with Vendor "X" because of imagined or real infraction in the past? Hard to say. That would be some horrible PR for the location...... but in this case, the location Travis is mentioning is sought after and booked far in advance, so chances are, the church would get its way. Like it or not. Then there is the attitude around here that "its only video" which contributes to downplaying the significance of our trade.

This isn't to say that the photographers have it any easier at the church, but when they move / shuffle in their seats, it is easier because they are using smaller equipment and can be more discrete about it.

My understanding is that the church can refuse to allow a vendor on their premises because it is their property. Now, how this would actually stand up in a court of law is a whole different matter. I've never signed any kind of contract with the church, so they don't have any legal document showing that I understood the terms of working there.

I'm also assuming they show the blacklist to any couple that books with them, and lets them know that those vendors aren't allowed. And since most couples book the location before anything else, they would see me on the blacklist and just never contact me, so it would be a non-issue for the church. Not to mention the church probably has a clause in their contract with the B&G that vendors on the blacklist aren't allowed on the premises.


Oh, not that it matters, and don't tell my wife, but photographers DO have it easier during the ceremony. They aren't expected to capture a 29.97 pictures per second, lol. So they can switch positions and not worry that they aren't getting shots. And don't get me started on audio, lol.

[Jason Robinson]

Originally Posted by Travis Cossel

They aren't expected to capture a 29.97 pictures per second, lol.

Here I'll cut your problem by 20%...... just shoot in 24p. Less frames to get messed up.

:-P

(ducks out of thread)

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by Jason Robinson

Here I'll cut your problem by 20%...... just shoot in 24p. Less frames to get messed up.

:-P

(ducks out of thread)

lol ... nice ....

[Don Bloom]

Although I have never been "asked to leave" nor blacklisted I do know a couple of folks that have been and a few churches that do have the dreaded blacklist. They will ask the B&G when the book the church who they were planning on using for photog and video and then show them the book. If the B&G were thinking of using someone in the book the church people "recommend" that they don't.
As for holding up in court I think it might simply because the B&G were told that the vendors were not allowed in the church and since the church is not really under public domain I would have to think it would hold up. Now I don't know ANYONE that has been thru this kind of thing and frankly I think it's pretty petty BUT it is thier house and thier rules.
CASE IN POINT: about 3 or 4 years ago I did a wedding at a little church I had never been to before. I arrived my usual 1 1/2 hours before the ceremony, went to introduce my self to the pastor. I said, "Hi, I'm Don and I'm the video cameraman for the kids wedding." I didn't get to say anything else as the pastor who didn't shake my hand (which I had extended) nor did he stop doing whatever it was he was doing, he simply pointed to the balconey and said in a rather unpleasent tone of voice " you shoot it all from the balconey, no if's ands or but's about it. If you don't like it, tough!"
WOW! I forunatly had one of my cameras with me and had it running ( I learned the hard way to ALWAYS CMA and I don't care about the video I just want the audio-just for guys like him) so I went to the groom and told him what transpired. He was quite unhappy but as he said, "his house, his rules I guess".
Point being, if you piss off the officiant it makes it really hard for the next guy to go in and soon enough they don't want anyone there to shoot the wedding. This goes back many years. Older officiants or even younger ones that think we're going in with 17 cameras and a crew of 35. Yell CUT take it again when it doesn't look good ;-)

To me shooting a wedding is like shooting a breaking news event. Things may be planned and in a certain order but things change, things happen and we have no control over it. Get it the best you can and it is what it is.
Some churches are great some aren't but a lot of it has to do with the person wearing the robe. Some are jerks some are great. Most fall in the middle.
Oh well, it is what it is. :-)
Don

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by Don Bloom

I arrived my usual 1 1/2 hours before the ceremony, went to introduce my self to the pastor. I said, "Hi, I'm Don and I'm the video cameraman for the kids wedding." I didn't get to say anything else as the pastor who didn't shake my hand (which I had extended) nor did he stop doing whatever it was he was doing, he simply pointed to the balconey and said in a rather unpleasent tone of voice " you shoot it all from the balconey, no if's ands or but's about it. If you don't like it, tough!"

A bit off-topic, but this really bothers me. I've had this experience too, and as a Christian myself, it really ticks me off that people who are supposed to be representing the values of their religion can act like such jerks. I mean, we're all human, but it's just silly for a pastor to treat me with disdain when he doesn't know a thing about me. Okay, back on topic. Just had to rant.