Is $100 the standard rate for 2nd videographer (weddings)
 

Okay, I posted a thread not to long ago about a guy I was freelance for.. for "free" .. well I finally told this guy I expect to be paid like he would pay any other freelancer.. he says $100 is what he pays his other free lancers for each event. Is that a rip off for me, or is that worth a days work as a 2nd videographer? I need an answer asap so I can tell him whether or not I am willing to do this wedding on SATURDAY..

How much does it work out an hour + travel costs + tape costs etc.
What is your hourly rate?

Time is money.

I would say if his rate for a second videographer is just a $100 then he either under priced the job to begin with or he has other cameramen lined up to work for peanuts.

I have a question for you. What does he charge for a wedding?

Is it just the ceremony? Or the whole day? Makes a big difference.

Are you using his equipment, or yours? Also a big difference.

But as Dennis says, just work out what you would like to make an hour, and do the math. Add 'more' if you are using your own equipment.

Also, you should have some kind of minimum fee. What if you decide your rate is $20/hour. Do you get $20 to shoot a one hour ceremony? I don't think so. I would suggest a 4 hour min (at least that goes over where I am). Other shooters work on half and full day rates. No mention of hourly rates at all.

But I read your other thread, too. Adding that to his offer of $100 makes me think you should just move on and find a better person to shoot for. And you now have experience! It's obvious from the way you tell your stories that you think he is taking advantage of you. Why not listen to yourself?

Personally, I wouldn't turn off the tv and go out to shoot anything for $100, unless is was a private project for fun. The time you spend preparing your equipment, testing everything, paying for gas, travel time, etc,... it's just not worth it.

Even a beginner (as long as you are producing good video) with no equipment should be able to make double that in a day. $100 sounds like what you would pay a student to carry your camera bag around.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm way off base for your area, I don't know...

There is no "standard".

He will pay what somebody will accept as fair value for their time. It's up to "you" to decide whether it's worth your while - nobody else.

I use my own equipment, he charges like 1500 or more for a 2 camera wedding video. so it sounds like I might be being ripped off. I need to answer this guy by tomorrow, as to whether or not i'm going to do the wedding.

Hi Jenna,
If you feel like taking the gig, then do it. It's a hundred bucks and experience. If you feel like you are being taken advantage of, then I'd say don't do it (assuming you are in a position to turn down paying work) and look for other gigs. Like others have posted, you determine what is not worth your time/effort to do. If it was me and I had the time, I'd take the paying gig.
Randy

I suppose I'll take the gig. Despite what my mind tells me or otherwise. I just know that I've given far to many freebies to people when i deserved to be paid. I know at my young age I need far more experience before I could succeed in the business of wedding videos. Mainly because of age alone.

The 3 things that determine pay for a 2nd operator are, in no particular order; location, experience and what they charge.
Also to take into consideration are his gear or yours.
Since all of these questions are answered there is one left to ask. Is it ceremony only OR full day (ceremony and reception)? IF it's ceremony only then I suppose $100 is OK, if it's for a full day, uh, not so much. However your location and experience and mine are quite different. I don't need the experience anymore (over 1200 weddings over 25 years-I THINK I got the idea) BUT it seems like you might need more experience. As much as it seems to me this guy is taking advantage of you you might want to take SOME work from him simply to gain more experience in the industry before striking off on your own.
Good Luck
Don

What I would have done, personally, when I was getting started in that situation - I would throw him the occasional cheapo job as I had time to spare, and also try to cultivate new relationships with better contacts in the meantime. Sure, take the experience and the small paycheck, but also work on overcoming this stage of the game.

Go out, meet potential customers, and (this is the whole idea of sales and marketing) convince them that you are the best thing since sliced bread. It really doesn't matter if you are. Watch a few commercials - then tell me that advertising has anything to do with honesty. =D

You don't have the most experience, and probably aren't the 'best' and you don't want to sell yourself as the cheapest, do you? What about the best value? Don't charge the least, but not the most, and let them see you go the extra mile for them. And forget about tiny paychecks from other videographers.

I know what you mean about age. I'm 24, been doing media (started in web design) since I was 21... however.... I look like I'm barely old enough to drive. Your customers don't check your ID for your age, but they do get a pretty big impression based off of looks - and I've fought that one my whole life. If it gives you an idea, I got carded for muffin samples at Publix Grocery when I was 22, told I needed a parent present because it contained possible allergens. =D Do NOT let your age (or appearance thereof) hold you back. It's just a number. And the truth of the matter is they don't really care if they know you will provide what they are looking for.

Carl

I pay $200 for second camera for a $1500 wedding. Although, if you have nothing else going on that day, a $100 is better than nothing.

As much as I appreciate Don's vast experience and valuable advice, I can't agree with him on this one. I don't know the size of your market, but surely there is someone else in your area that can give you work. Why feel like you have no choice but the guy who is taking advantage of you? There is no way I could go work for someone if I felt that way. Go ask the other studios if they need shooters!

By the way. Merry Christmas everyone!

Hey everyone, thanks for the quick answers. I've kind of already gotten myself booked for this so there is no backing out, and I've screwed myself in the sense that NEXT time he comes around asking me to work with him, I'll be getting another $100 pay check.

Yes it's a full day ceremony, the distance is about 30 minutes, then we meet up and I ride with him the rest of the way. I'm 21 years old, by the way, and This will be my 4th wedding, and I've never been paid a dime for any of the work that I have done, so I'm aching to get something. I know I should be getting more for a full days work. I have no choice at this point. In my area there isn't really more opportunities for work. Another thing that bothers me about this guy is that he has yet to give me copies of the past 2 weddings, so I have no evidence of my work for any type of demo..

I need to preface my remarks by saying that I am not trying to slight anyone or their opinions.

I don't know about what fair prices are in large cities or areas with large populations regardless of whether you are the video producer or just a hired shooter. But I will tell you this. Where you are and the price your market is willing to pay determines what fair pay is.

I read stories about wedding video producers collecting $1500 to a few thousand dollars for doing a video. I think to myself... wow, I wish I could get that. The truth here in rural northwest Ohio is that people are not backwards hicks with no money but if you try to get more than $800 - $1000 for ceremony and reception coverage, you are pretty much pricing yourself right out of business. Oh sure, they'll spend a lot on the other facets of the wedding like the hall, decorations, caterers, etc., but when it comes to video, they think it's no big deal to produce so it shouldn't cost a great deal of cash. After all, Uncle Bob can shoot it for us!! ;)

In my area, $100 for a day of shooting (for someone else) would be fair. That may entail working up to 6 or 8 hours.

For one, you're not responsible for the final product and the fact that you're available to shoot for someone else means you don't have any work of your own. If you want to make more, book your own clients.

I think you have a great opportunity to pick up some cash for your efforts and get some valuable on-the-job training that will give you exposure and make you feel a lot more relaxed when you do have the responsibility as your own boss.

Just my take.

Jeff

I have someone help me on some events. If they just shoot and use my equipment, I will pay them $25 an hour for little experience and $50 for an experienced shooter. I pay them a little more if they use their own equipment. Sometimes they say that %100 or something is better then nothing. Unfortunately you have set yourself up for $100, but I wouldn't work for that price again. If he really needs you, then he'll pay you. Good luck with it.

No offense but I think $100 is too much. :) Or it's at least fair to start out with.

It sounds like you've never even done this before? (2nd cam work). I literally had to "give" my stuff away to get experience whereas you get some training with a bit of change in your pocket to boot.

I don't know how well you know this guy but I'd stick it out for a while before demanding he double it. When you're fully established in business this relationship may even come in handy some day.

Regular Rates.....
 

Jenna, I run a Wedding/Special event company in Youngstown, Ohio. Don't know how far that is from you, but my regulay pay is $125.00 for a ceremony only shoot, and if I need the 2nd shooter for the day, it goes to $300.00 The shooter uses my gear, he/she just shows up. I pay that because I want good talent, and I also want the people who shoot for me to feel appreciated, and therefore give me a good product. We both come out on top that way. We're shooting with DSR-300's, until march when we're getting 2 EX cameras + other toys. Maybe that is helpful to you, to know what your talent is worth.

I'm actually quite close to youngstown ohio. And to Rick, who quoted me saying this is my forth wedding, and then replied "it sounds like you've never done this before".. It is my 3rd wedding as a 2nd cameraman and I've shot one wedding by myself and edited it. I do like the fact that I can work as a 2nd cam man and not have to worry about the final product. But I also don't get any credit. I'd really like to use some of my own footage for a demo, but he keeps putting off giving it to me.

Hi Jenna,
I guess if no one is beating down your door for 2nd cam work then take the cash. The reason he may not be giving you the footage may be that he owns the footage and not you. If he gives you the footage and you put together a decent demo reel, then you become competition in which sounds like a small town. I wouldn't want you to open a business doing weddings and cut into my profit using footage of weddings that I acquired the business for. Also if you do a bad job editing someone may see that work and associate it with my business as well which would be bad too. In order to get the footage I would negotiate a deal for the $100 plus the footage and get it in writing and sub contract yourself under a business name. If you are serious about getting into the wedding biz anyway, you might as well license yourself and charge him appropriately.
Just my 2 cents though

$100 per day is what I pay my 20 year old son. Honestly, I probably pay him a little more than I would any other 20 year old, but that's because he's my son and I love him! :)

I do have one other guy that helps out on smaller projects, and I pay him $15 per hour.

he's not ripping you off in the least. i'm sure he booked this wedding awhile ago based on certain set of expectations, which included not paying you. that's what he budgeted for because that's what you led him to believe that he could expect. or he might not have not included a 2nd cam at all in the price he quoted the client.

moreover, 2/3rds of what he is making is likely based on the edit, not the shoot, which gets exponentially more difficult, the more cameras involved. so by adding a 2nd camera, he is also more than doubling the edit load. he's providing more value for his client, but also biting off more work and spending more time, if he is adding a 2nd camera. so his per-hour rate on the edit is dropping like a stone.

on the basis of the expectations set for this budget, it sounds reasonable. you need to advise him to bake the budget differently, if you are going to ask for more money.

if you think more like a business person and less like a beleaguered employee, this will make sense to you.

"i have no choice" is the biggest lie you will ever tell yourself.

in my country/city $100 is ok, but per hour !
And 2nd cam means nothing else than he cannot handle two cams at the same time. It means nothing regarding the salary.
If he crash the first cam, the only valid shoot will be in yours.
So i do not see why spending 3 hours behind the second cam would pay less than behind the main cam (if skills are equal, and even if they are not).
just set a decent hourly rate and stick to it.

hehehehehe... that's a good one!!!


But seriously... just how much do people pay for wedding videos in your country? (in American dollars).

Jeff

I'm moving to your country and becoming the second camera guy at weddings. $100/hr for holding the wide shot steady and pulling off one or two smooth pans or zooms, that's like stealing. Maybe you require more from your second camera than I do.

Heck, 100 bucks, why not? If you need the money take it, but concentrate on trying to find enough work you don't have to bother with low-ball jobs like that.

The problem with communications is the illusion that it happened
 

Hi Jenna,

$100 for the day, huh? I wonder if he has he worked out issues with you like:

1. What happens if your gear breaks/gets stolen, etc?

2. What happens if you get hurt on the job?

3. Who pays for the video tapes? Will he provide the type you use (lubricated/non-lubricated) in your camera?

4. Will you receive a vendor meal?

5. Will you be released at a specific time, event, or at his discretion?

6. Will you show up and shoot, or be required to meet before wedding day to coordinate/choreograph multi-shot plans and communications, receive instructions on special shots and/or special guest shots, learn how to use his walkie-talkies, review a DVD of a prior wedding, etc.?

7. Will he provide constructive feedback, comparison to his video shots, receive an edited copy of the DVD at or near project completion?

8. Will you be required to wear special clothing, perhaps requiring you to incur a new clothing expense?

9. Will you be reimbursed for any expenses? (parking, tolls, disposable batteries, etc)

10. Do you know his criteria for success? How that applies to you? Which of these factors are important to him? Your proficiency, skills, judgment, enthusiasm, drive/tenacity, unobtrusive nature, non-shooting social skills, etc?

This is just a start but you get the idea - be sure to get clear expectations (his, brides, contracting client) on financial and business conditions before the wedding.

Good luck, Michael

quote: But seriously... just how much do people pay for wedding videos in your country? (in American dollars).

Yes in my country everything is expensive so you earn a lot of money to spend a lot of money. the balance is not so interesting.
(my rent for the house is $3000/month, health insurance $1200/month, taxes are $2000/month so you can imagine that at $100 per day you are not going very far).
Unfortunately, video for wedding is not an industry here, so you can hardly expect to make your life out of it. You better will as photographer (same $100 per hours even more since i rarely see a photographer more than 2 hours in a wedding and they charge usually between 500 et 800 for this).
I do more events like fairs, music performance and the rate is $120/hour for shooting whatever camera you are (main, 2nd etc..).
for example on the 31th dec. from 8pm to 3am i will shoot a dance performance and will earn 800$ for this.

Jenna,

I don't know if this will help you, but here's how it worked with me:

When I started shooting weddings many years ago, I shot with the studio's gear and I owned nothing. I learned that studio's methods and style. I got paid $25 per hour as the primary shooter. As I learned more and more, and as I got better and better, I purchased my own gear (little by little) and got work with other studios. Nowadays, I shoot for myself and 2 diffferent studios, and I keep a full schedule. My rates are 'top of the chart' for this area, and I didn't burn any bridges. If the guy I first shot for calls me back, I'll still work for him, but he'll have to pay my going rate.

Good luck figuring all this out!

Mark

So if you get hired for $100 per hour to shoot a three hour wedding, you'll be able to pay about 10% of your rent.

If Jenna gets $100 for the day, she'll be able to pay 20% of her rent.

I think Jenna got a better deal! ;)

Yes, but Giroud probably gets to keep a fully-automatic Sig 550 in his house.

no unfortunately , i am too old to had the chance of getting the lightweight SIG 550.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
i use to hold the heavy and retired SIG 510 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_510

But thanks to this training, i have no fear to lift a FX1 for several hours

Where in any major or medium city in North America can you rent even a bachelor apt for $500 a month???? Let's get real - in most urban areas, at least those I'm familiar with, $500 will get you one room with a pull-down Murphy bed to sleep on and a two-burner hotplate in lieu of a kitchen. Seriously, for anything except the slums you'll need to at least double or triple the result you get when you say $100 is 20% of the rent and multiply it out. I'm in the Toronto area where the selling price of an average existing 2 bedroom home in outlying working class/middle class neighborhood is upwards of $375000 to $500000 and 2 bedroom mid-range condos in the city itself start at a mere $750,000 to a million five. There ain't no way in the world you can cover that mortgage on $100 per day one or two days a week, much less once or twice a month.

you don't need to rely on the footage that you shoot for him to generate a demo. go offer your services and shoot a few public service announcements or do some web work for a few non-profits--you're willing to work for free anyway, you might as well milk it for the footage and the chance to work for some interesting people who may hire you later, for real. if they put it on their website, then you can link to it or direct clients to it. sprinkle it with the wedding footage you already shot. you don't have to use images of the same people, maybe you shot the presents, or the altar, or something. add a few filters, play with the color correction make it look like several different weddings. a little footage can go a long way.

you can have a working demo in no time, instead of wasting your breath concocting excuses for why you don't and then blaming this guy for the outcome.

video work is nearly never about what the other guy is or isn't doing, it's 99% about what you are doing.

2nd Cam wedding cameramen sleep in tents and live purely on noodles.
Everybody knows that.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Jenna lives near Youngstown, OH. Median gross monthly rent in 2005 for Youngstown (according to city-data.com): $493.

Nyah nyah nyah! :)

Hey everyone,
So I did the shoot, he ended up giving me $125 because the day was going to be longer than he expected. I did ask for him to bring a copy of the previous weddings, he brought one, and it was just the ceremony (and I really wanted the reception part, I got plenty of good shots) The copy he gave me of the ceremony skips, and I'm not to happy about that, he said he'd give me the reception, I guess he just didn't have time to make a copy.

To answer Michael Nistler, we haven't discussed most of those issues. If my gear gets broken or stolen, I'm sure I'd be screwed. Unless he was somehow responsible.. If I get hurt on the job, then, once again, I'd be screwed, I do recieve a meal however, and I am required to dress up, which does entitle me to go out and buy a new wardrobe. He always goes to the rehearsal, and then fills me in the next day. If the wedding is far away, I drive to his place which is about 25 minutes away, and he drives the rest of the way. So I then don't have to worry about gas, tolls, or mileage on my own car. He also provides the tapes, a tripod (cause I've yet to invest in a professional one), and sometimes he lets me borrow a battery if mine run out, I also work the entire day with him. I think that answers all of the questions

Sometimes I feel like there is no need for a second camera during the photoshot, I always think to myself "why am I filming this.. they are getting pictures of it! " Unless something funny happens, or they are interesting photos, then I feel as if it'll bore even the bride and groom to watch, once they've already seen the photos. Let alone.. two of us are filming it, so we're just getting different angles.

The other day during photos, I literally turned my camera off, because there was probably about 30 people in this room, taking pictures, most of them were standing around watching (which means they were standing in my way) So the other videographer had a good spot to film the photos, but I did not, so instead of wasting my battery or wasting tape that I knew wouldn't be used, I just waited until they moved from that area.

Oh, and around 6, I was starving, Of course it was a reception with a buffet, but we were provided with no seating and no silverware. We ended up eating in a hallway, and had to track down caterers to fetch us some silverware. Lol.

What type of camera do you have again?

I think $150 and you buying your own tapes would be more fair.

The guy I work for is very generous. I got $400 for a days worth of shooting....but then again I bring equal to and a few nicer items to the table.

However, I started out doing just the ceremony for $100 and had the nicest camera(vx-2000)

But that's the shot... of those 30 people, that is.

Jenna, I certainly hope you take the advice which Meryem and other folks here have offered. Time to put this experience behind you, and move onward and upward.

I don't quite feel ready to go out on my own just yet. I have very little to put towards a demo, in fact, the first wedding I did, I don't really feel would be that flattering in my demo, as it was a free job, (of course that part doesn't matter) the wedding itself wasn't nearly as glamorous as the weddings I've seen in many of the demo's people have posted on here. Then I've got the ceremony footage from another wedding I did, which was given to me on dvd, and when played back, is extremely choppy (I did ask for another copy, and in addition a copy of the reception)

It's all a bit overwelming for me, getting a website, making a demo, and trying to market myself. Especially at such a young age (21), with one camera, I feel that I need to continue freelancing for a while, because honestly, I don't think it'll fly if I try to do this on my own right now. I feel like I should wait ten years before I even start, lol. (maybe I'll look like I'm 20 by then) I'd like to say I'll have a website up and running by mid-year, and thats my goal for now. Beyond that, I don't know what the future holds.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but 21 is not such a young age (well in some ways it is, youthful good looks, for instance, but for business purposes, 12 is young, 21 is prime). Whatever you do, don't wait -- for anything. The right time is always now.