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Music License trouble... (stupid of me...)
So on twitter, I decided to follow one of my favorite composers, XXX XXXX (whom by the way, I used on majority of my wedding trailer) and that was the biggest and dumbest mistake that I have made in my life...
His assistant accepted the following on tweeter and decided to stop by my website where he discovered that 2 of my demo trailers, his music has been used. So he e-mailed me with "illegal music usage, let me know "exactly" how many songs you have used, cue timing, etc, and how much I charge my client for the video, etc, etc...." I really wanted to shoot myself in the head when I was reading the e-mail... I guess I am learning my lesson in very.. very.. hard way... JJ |
o my gosh.. I feel you man.. that must've hurt..
I mean.. in my personal personal personal opinion.. if I were the composer, I'd be very happy to know that my music is being used in weddings. Its not like people pay to play it on events and stuff... its a free advertising for them as well.. but yeah.. thats just me i guess. Santo |
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From the legal perspective, if Muzzey is inclined to sue and discovers that, rather than taking down the material, it was simply moved somewhere else, the OP has incurred liability for intentional copyright infringement, for which the penalties are severe. |
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The composer didn't create that music for free advertising... that's his product. Music costs money and time to make. |
I am in process of talking with his assistant and attorney for signing the contract of usage of his music with licensing fee. I have sent them my wedding price package and they will determine how much they would charge for my usage of his music.
His music has been used 3 of trailers and nowhere else which is usually 30 sec to one minute. The entire DVD is usually from 1.5 hours to 2. I guess it's important to them what' the portion of his music being used as to a whole project. I mean, I am a musician myself and I do respect and admire very talented musicians/composers, like XXX XXXXX. As long as music fee is reasonable, like American Music Co, and stock 20, I am willing to pay the cost. I have read some big thread about music licensing in this forum, but I didn't know it could actually hit me like this.. but then again, it's all my stupidity of deciding to follow Kerry's twitter... JJ |
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This is because I already got paid in the main job. which is the wedding day. For composers, I think their main income is from album sales, itunes download, concerts, commercials, etc. But then again, like I said, its a personal personal personal opinion.. :) Santo |
Just out of interest - did you credit him in the clip?
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I am thinking about doing that for my trailers from now on. But then again, how many wedding videographer/video production service put the composer/musician name on their trailer or highlight? I know some do, but most of them don't, correct? |
lucky for australians, we got a license that covers commercial music used in weddings...
US should provide this such license.. |
That's a big problem JJ. If you had credited him I doubt he would be taking this aggressive an attitude.
This is a very unfortunate trend in wedding video. Hunting out more obscure pieces of music which the client is unlikely to have heard. Creating highlights/montages where 90% of the impact is from the music and then by not crediting the artist effectively claiming 100% of the credit for yourself. Of course you/I don't necessarily want to credit the artist, especially if we promote our work to other videographers, but succumbing to the temptation is flat out wrong and not just in the legal/technical sense. Kudos for going public. |
This is from his twitter update:
I get annoyed at unauthorized uses of my music, esp. becuz my attorney fees get a little outrageous. about 1 hour ago from web I just don't want anyone else to make same mistake that I made. Who knew following someone in the twitter could get this much trouble... I am very frustrated and a bit scared even... with this mass... I don't mind credit the artist at all... OH I wish I had... JJ |
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I wish or hope Canada comes up with a similar license fee as Australia, I know Djs through AVLA pay a one year license fee. Would love to pay a one year fee. WEVA should start a campaign of some sort, I am sure thousands of videogs from the US and Canada would love to pay that fee.
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Musicians don't get paid to make music, they get paid to sell and license music. Kind of like feature films. Sorry, touchy subject for me. |
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Somehow I pictured some guy making a wedding entertainment product and he uses my video without asking for permission.. that'll be quiet upsetting. Santo |
Just a little FYI: I was curious and went to hunt down this composer's Twitter page. I typed Kerry Muzzey Twitter into Google and this thread was on the first page of search results, about five or six results from the top.
Considering that you're currently still working out a deal and it's a rather sticky legal issue, it may be best to keep your frustration private, at the risk of what you write here being used against you. |
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I would like to keep it private, but I just wanted to share with fellow video professions at this forum because as simple thing as following someone in the twitter could cause such a big issue, others (and I) will think twice when they decided to do twitter and facebook in that matter. But should I erased his name from my first thread?? I am going to do it anyway... JJ |
First, JJ, I'm really sorry to hear of your troubles. Considering how little we get paid to do what we do as it is, this has got to be very frustrating. I'm sorry, man.
Second, contrary to what Doug said, I seriously doubt that 'crediting' the composer would have made much of a difference in how they interacted with you. If they are willing to pay lawyers to try and get money out of a wedding videographer I seriously doubt they would do things differently if you had put the composers name on the piece. Third, I would like to point out that there's a difference between using a composer's music in what amounts to a personal project for the couple ... and using someone's video to sell a product or services on a mass scale. I'm not justifying the legality, I'm just saying there is a difference between the two. Fourth, how long is it going to be before the music industry gets it's act together and gives us a system that works? Seriously. Lastly, I hope this thread doesn't hurt you JJ, and I appreciate you sharing your story. Very thoughtful of you. |
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I can leave it out from full DVD and explain it to my brides and I am sure they will understand. I am really nervous right now... (sigh)... JJ |
Travis - you doubt it would have made any difference? IMHO that is is the classic "get out". There is no point in behaving honorably because they will still go after you for maximum legal damages.
I think JJ knows only too well how much of a difference it would have made. But perhaps we are wrong. How would you feel if I showed a clip of yours on my website without credit? Would it be different if I included your name, email and website? Let's get real guys. In the battle between wedding videographers and the rest of the world wedding videographers are not always right. I do feel for JJ - it's a painful experience, but not giving credit in circumstances where you stand to gain competitive advantage by assuming the credit yourself is flat wrong. JJ - if this is the biggest mistake of your life the you must be very very young. Travis - I checked yr work man. VERY nice!! I have some clients coming round in a few - so I've taken a couple of yr clips and put them on my site. Hope that's OK. I won't credit you if that's OK. But if they do explicitly ask who shot that clip I will give them your name. That way no-one can accuse me of dishonesty. |
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And yep, this one is the biggest one so far, but let's hope not... let's just hope this will work out OK... The wedding DVDs with the trailer with his music has not been produced yet. All 3 of them are still in editing process and one of them has not been even started yet because the bride has not been submitted her music CD yet. So really... I haven't made a single penny off his music yet if they want to investigate how much I have made with the trailer itself.... Urgh.. I just want this nightmare to end........ Funny, he is following me as well on Twitter... JJ |
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Do not think of an IP lawsuit as a profit center. There is a very simple calculus for determining whether or not to sue: if the cost of litigation is less than the value of the IP at issue, sue. If not, don't. IP plaintiffs sue to vindicate the right at issue, not to make money. Valid reasons for suing include sending a message to other and potential infringers, get an easy win to hold up to other, more problematic, potential defendants, etc. My clients will routinely pick a "weak" defendant, i.e. one with few financial resources who provides a clear black-and-white case, to get an easy win that can be publicized. Quote:
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He is following you on Twitter? Maybe he reads this thread and decides you are a well-intentioned innocent, who has been brainwashed into thinking that because this is "Standard Industry Practice", it is OK. Now you have seen the error of your ways he goes easy on you. No that couldn't happen. |
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Hey all,
I read all the posts with great interest because I read the thread a bit a while ago about the discussion of using music as a DJ or in wedding videos. I am confused by a few issues. I am hoping some of you can clear these up based on J.J.'s issues at hand. As he said..he used this guys music in a video trailer that is on his sight. He didn't credit the guy..ok.. but JJ isnt making money (yet) off of the videos. If I understand correctly, isn't JJ selling the video as part of his service for shooting the wedding video? Thus, there is only 1 person buying it? It's not like he's redistributing this guys music and making money off of it. So how much "license" can a song demand? I ask this because, I have been wanting to get in to the wedding video business, but after reading this, I don't think I do now. This is insane. I agree a musician needs to make his money, and if J.J. Were selling his music on some site and profiting from it without permission, J.J. would be in a heap of trouble. That is mostly common sense. We see pirated DVDs, CDs, etc all over the place and we read about places that get caught and their owners go to jail.. etc etc.. but they are redistributing music possibly in quantities for profit with not even a penny going back to the original musicians and parties involved in the production of said music. That is illegal.. agree. But J.J is simply using his song in a video that he is "showing off" so while somebody can watch it.. it's not the full song and it's probably not even CD quality and it's not being sold.. so how the heck can he be charged any sort of nominal price for using a portion of the music in a non-profitable way? By that I mean..if this musician has lawyers involved (plural mind you), that's costing the guy a lot of money..probably a lot more than the money JJ was going to make off the whole wedding video service. It would be my guess that he would then try to sue JJ for at least the costs of his lawyers + some sort of cost for the use of the music. I don't know for sure how that works..but it's a guess.. why have lawyers looking into this one use of it and pay their astronomical fees if you don't plan to recoup the costs of their fees at least? That said, now that I am also scared about thinking of going into this business.. how does one in the US of good o'l A license music for videos? I ask this primarily because I have no money and wanted to offer some free shoots/editings to get a portfolio going..but it sounds like I may get my house taken from me if I try to use any song at all without paying some license? I have read that there is a new site that offers music for wedding videos, events, etc at a low price.. forget how much it was per use, but it wasn't too bad. Naturally wedding people have to work that in to their prices. I would love it if someone could point me to some info on that so I can get a rough idea of what will be required to actually use any music I want in a video. Incidentally..what about videos people post on YouTube and Facebook and such? If this guy can go after J.J for this.. why can't everyone on youtube and facebook be sued for posting videos with illegal music and such? You wonder why people download mp3s.. it's because of this crap exactly. People are tired of paying $16 for a CD that costs less than $1 to make an distribute. This is why iTunes has done so well and frankly the music industry is in serious trouble.. even more so with the higher bandwidth internet to homes, more musicians doing it themselves because they don't want to wait for BMI and whoever else to try to sign them and take 90% of their profits, etc. Sorry for the anger.. but this is just sickening how this happens. Lawyers have been tearing apart people's lives with all kinds of loopholes for decades now and our country is a damn sue happy country at any cost. This is just one more case where a musician could have taken a very professional approach and simply said "Hey, I notice you're using my music.. I like to be credited for it and I ask a nominal fee for use.." Bam. I am sure JJ would have obliged and everybody would be happy. If this guy is going to try to sue JJ, frankly I think his music career is going to have a rough ride. There are professional ways to handle things in small situations like this, I don't think involving lawyers right off is the right approach. Why not be professional, ask JJ for a little compensation that is fair and some credit. That would go a long way in bringing this guy more business. I for one would rather have seen JJ say "Hey guys..I got caught on twitter by a musician for using his music, but this guy was really professional.. asked me to credit him and pay a nominal fee for each use.. you guys should check out his site and music.. give him some business." To me..that would have been far better. But our country is no longer built on good morals like this.. everyone is out to make a buck and screw the next guy over. Ugh.. JJ, I feel for you man.. this makes me angry just reading this. I am really sorry you're going through it. :( I hope it turns out ok. |
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This event reinforces my opinion that soon (very soon!) music publishers, composers and authors will use music fingerprinting software to crawl the web searching for infringing uses of their music, including in videos many of you have posted on your websites. Facebook and YouTube already do it, what makes you think others won't? |
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BTW, it gets worse. When you record and redistribute the bride's cousin singing "Endless Love" during the ceremony, you are violating copyright. Quote:
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Wouldn't it be great if we could just all get to say to our clients "nope, can't do it. Here's a list of royalty free stuff from my library that I can use in your video. The music police have shut us all down." Then we could just get on with it. |
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So..question then for Chris (or anyone who knows), what if the wedding client has purchased a CD of music that they want to use. Can I legally use that music in their wedding video since they purchased the music legally and the video is for them and nobody else? It would mean I can't show their video on my site, sure.. but could I legally use the music they purchased in their video? OR.. could I go out and buy a CD (or itunes music), and put it in their video for their use only? If so.. how does this apply to making copies of the DVDs for their friends/relatives? I am guessing that would NOT be allowed due to multiple distributes of the music without paying for it... hence what a royalty free license covers. I haven't looked at the sites yet, but was is the average price for a single song royalty free to use? And.. if I myself pay for that song.. is it normally a one time use, or can I use it in anything I want from then on (or some duration probably the license covers)? Thanks. |
Kevin, do a search on the site. This topic has been discussed a million times and you'll get lots of info.
Cheers... |
There was a huge thread about the music licensing issue a while back and there have been numbers of threads about this issue.
I started this thread just to share that twitter and facebook could very often be used against you... More on that subject than the actual music licensing..... But, really, I want to thank you all for your advice and help. Hopefully things will work out OK... JJ |
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I often fantasize about Vito's idea of our industry collectively telling our clients, "Sorry, can't use that Madonna song." But as long as the majority of us are giving the option of using any song, licensed or not, it's a death sentence. I often wonder how the higher priced studios with the most exposure get away with it. Uncle Bob with the handycam who charges $500 and does five weddings a year I can see flying under the radar, but I would think more companys that are featured on popular wedding websites and magazines, would be caught by now. But I don't want to get off track so I'll zip it :) |
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I use royalty-free stuff from places like Digital Juice for corporate projects, but wedding clients are a whole 'nother ball game. d;-)
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I second Travis' comment. I use Stock 20 for most of my non-wedding client and they always loved it. It's the wedding clients that I can show 1000 songs to pick from my royalty free music library, and honestly, I have used some royalty free music for some weddings, but it is very very rare...
Still waiting from their attorney... JJ |
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1. We've always done it this way. 2. We've never done it that way. My expectation is that the copyright owners don't see wedding and event videography as a significant source of potential income. Though I think they wrong in this assessment, there's little I (or you) can do to change there minds. I do think that WEVA and similar organizations can and should lobby for this change. Perhaps you should ask them. ;) |
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1. The right to make copies. 2. The right to distribute. 3. The right to prepare derivative works. 4. The right to publicly perform. By posting the video trailer on a website, the OP has infringed all four. Copyright confers and exclusive right, meaning you can't "make" a copyright owner let you use something (absent a compulsory license or fair use, which this is not). Quote:
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As I said, "exclusive rights," means exclusive as in, "the power to exclude." The purpose of copyright is as an incentive to creation by authors. I happen to write music. Suppose I think wedding videos are tacky and cheapen my compositions (I don't, by the way -- this is a hypothetical). I have an absolute right, confirmed by the Constitution, to say, "I don't care whether you're making money or not -- you can't use my music for a wedding video." Quote:
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However, you also said you read the thread. You must have missed my post in which I explained that people rarely sue for copyright infringement because they think they will make money from the litigation. There are many other far more valid reasons to sue. Quote:
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The professional way to handle this is for JJ to have approached the copyright owners and requested a license. It's possible they might even have given him one for free. Instead, he simply appropriated for himself something that didn't belong to him. Instead of just immediately suing him (which the copyright owner was completely within his rights to do), they contacted him first and, now, are discussing a license. That is professional. Approaching someone and saying, "hey you took something that's mine -- how about putting my name on it and giving me a few bucks" is not, in the least, professional. Quote:
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1. Law has nothing to do with morality. 2. Copyright exists because it provides a social benefit. 3. The Constitution guarantees that the only one who can make a buck from a protected work of authorship is the author. 4. Enforcing copyright has nothing to do with screwing anyone over, anymore than my throwing you out of my vacant house in SF is screwing you over. Quote:
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