Roger, I hope you will be fine doing what you enjoy and making money in the same time. Good luck!
We are talking about two types of people here. It is totally different when someone who has put lots of efforts to change his life, starting up from the scratch and working hard to get his first clients for success charging less than established studios.
And it is different when someone without even understanding the basics of the job offers himself as a pro for pennies.
Few days ago I took a club party gig for $200 from CL. This guy (DJ) just needed basic stuff, 4hrs shoot without editing whatsoever. He just asked me kindly if I can do him a favor and provide him the footage on DVD. And I said YES. When I have showed up with my gear (Z5, light, wireless lav system, handheld support) he was surprised and happy. Just because he wasn't expecting that. And I did my best to make this guy even happier with the result...
And result was 1hour edited video with a crisp sound and cool shoots... plus 4 authored DVD's with menu and screen shoots!
Of course it has been introduced to him as a favor, not as my regular rate for the amount of the work that has been done. And at the first place I did that favor to myself. And if someone comes out and tells me that I am wrong, I will kindly ask the person to mind his own business. Because no one knows better than me how to run MY business. And no one cares actually.

I don't see this as a bad thing for the business at all. We need to put our work out there and let people know when they are getting a deal. If he comes back for another video with more money he should expect to pay more. He should put forth the effort to refer you to other DJs at a reasonable price. It doesn't always work that way but its worth the chance. Times are tough right now.

This whole topic really brings up an interesting dichotomy in that we as "non-large production house" based video producers have all low-balled someone. When I first decided to go out on my own back in the early 90's (I was working on and off for a film-based commercial production company), I invested in some prosumer hi8 gear (Canon L1) and produced a couple of documentaries (while keeping my day job), and was shunned by TV stations for not having "broadcast quality" gear.

At the time, Betacam SP was the standard, and a camera was worth north of 50k in Canada, not to mention edit suites were at least $100.00 an hour, and you couldn't even think about about setting yourself up in an edit suite unless you had really deep pockets. I produced a show on VHS whose sales barely covered the cost of the edit suite.

Basically the hurdles were monumental, and I took a few years off. Now we have not only affordable technology, but streaming video has totally democratized broadcasting, and multi-core processors allow practically anyone to edit in HD and produce results that only the big production houses could afford 15 years ago. Now it is the traditional broadcasters who are being undercut left, right, and center by all of us.

We are the middle tier, we're undercutting the big guys, and the little guys are undercutting us. That's the way it is... But I like things a whole lot better now than I did 15 years ago.

Once someone pays $250 for a job, he'll never expect or accept to pay more - not so long as someone else is ready to do it. Heck, would any of us buy our tapes for $10 if three other guys in town sold them at a loss for $5?

And that's why low-baling hurts everyone.

The miracle angle hasn't been working so far. ;)

I'm living in a town FULL of low ballers. Hell there is a damn tech school her who's students just love working for free (under the con that they will get a "rep" that way - I hate schools that encourage this BS. I mean, OK, for a simple gig or two for demo real purposes etc but not gig after gig after gig...)


I couldn't agree more. It's also why my area is a total PITA. I'm thinking of moving cities actually. I just don't like the idea of having to rebrand in another city but then again, it may be worth the move as the nonsustaining lowballers here (who are all broke by the way) are killing business here. Many of these guys even do decent work.

It's not just the economy. It's the fact that many of these people were desperate for business from the get go and never said no to a low price in fear of losing the client. They don't seem to get that they are really making less than min wage when they factor in their yearly expenses and monthly life cycle cost of equipment (I'm sure there is a better accounting term for that).

Lowballer story
 

A few years ago a lady comes into the office with a proposal. She offered a 'golden' opportunity to get in early on a 'ground breaking' new medical treatment. All I have to do is produce a 15 min broadcast quality info video free of charge.

The treatment was hooking up some kind helmet to a someone's head and shocking their brain to cure mintal illness was the basic concept as I recall.

There was no budget because she had no money, but she 'knows' it works because her daughter is responding quite well to the treatment she claims.

"How much is the treatment'? I ask

"Free for me," she tells me.

"How come"?

"Because I told the Doctor I could get him a free video....."

I tell her sorry, I only do wedding videos....

To this day I wonder if she ever got anyone to make her that video.

Actually, Will, I ended up making it for her, and now I'm rich as a result.

Thank God I got in on it early, cause now it's everywhere. Can't throw a dead cat without hitting a doctor using that treatment.

You missed out. It's used wherever capital punishment is available.

This just in...
 

Two offers came in yesterday from another videographer in my area...

Edit a birthday party she shot, 1 camera, used 3 tapes......$100

Film and edit a wedding next month, 2 cameras, the event is 8 hours....$275...oh and I have to provide my own tapes.

Rather than just say a direct "no", do it by giving them an itemised estimate (5 minutes of your time, no more) for what is involved to do their project.

The birthday party lady might have a sudden 'reality check' as to whether it's worth it.

With the wedding, they will get a proper indication of what they should be paying. If they walk away, you have still done well. If they accept your revised estimate, then you've done even better.

I've must say, though, it's a bit arrogant and cheeky for people to be coming up to you and suggest/dictate what pricing you will do the work for. Charge them 10% extra for having the gall to do that. :-D

Andrew

Oh, my God, Will. That's below lowballing. That's just insane. How could another videographer who should know better come up with numbers like that?

Exactly! You would think someone in our profession would know better, right? Well, it takes all kinds as the saying goes. Any takers on any lowball offer could easily find themselves in the WORST situation in my opinion.....Busy and BROKE.

Where do you get your dead cats???

And STRICTLY to play Devil's Advocate:
There are also some videographers out there trying to get $100 an hour for their laptop based edit suite that chokes on HDV or AVCIntra material with NO decks, no I/O besides Firewire, no investment in Royalty Free anything...

The offline suites at the largest production house in my former market are setup with full AVID Media Composers with BetaSP decks resident in each suite with an experienced broadcast editor with international broadcast credits, real time performance, a comfortable edit room and ALL the trimmings at a rate of right around $100 an hour, editor included.

The Digital Revolution certainly has created it's own issues but there are a lot of junior editors out there that spend more time flying stuff around on screen than working on EXACTLY which frames to cut. Much as there are shooters out there that are so worried about making sure they use their home made DOF adaptor that they don't bother to use boom or lav audio or set up a single light.

Clients need to come to the table with realistic budgetary expenses but a LOT of people starting out in video think that just because they've "invested" $5k, they are entitled to recoup $100k a year working 9-5. Well, if you really are THAT good, perhaps but....

My point was to use the person as a referral. If he wanted another video the price would have to be at the videographer's rate. I'm thinking about people filming this type of video for the first couple of times. You can't just go into a field of business charging what everyone else does.

Right now, with the position I'm personally in, I would take a job at a lower rate to get my work out there. I would never take 40 jobs at $200 to build my business, but here and there I'll do things to keep it rolling.

You thought we had competition from lowballers before? Take a look:
BBC - Earth News - Movie made by chimpanzees to be broadcast on television

Funny, sad & true all at the same time!

We all know there is a wide range of shooting styles based on info from this great forum, but I think there is also an even wider range of editing styles and more importantly, abilities. I see you understand editing as the frame accurate job it is (including audio). I think most folks don't purposely do a poor edit, they just never had a chance to learn in a production environment and are essentially home schooled. Therefore they just have no idea the level a pro production facility goes to to get things right.

My first year out of school, I used to advertise myself as an editor because I knew which buttons to push and where to drag stuff. THEN I got myself in over my head on an edit with someone who has since become a good client of mine. He had me do a rough cut on a project and MAN was I out of my league by SEVERAL degrees. I bowed out gracefully on the the edit and didn't charge him for my time after 6 hours of heart wrenching fear. He appreciated my honesty and worked me into his edit rotation UNDER THE TUTELAGE of his Online editor, first by capturing best takes from a log sheet, then to identifying good B-Roll, to assemble editing V/O and interview audio and eventually to offlining.

If it wasn't for a patient client and a patient online editor, I wouldn't have managed to get where I am today. And I STILL turn down edits if I'm not sure I can meet the client's expectations. You'll notice I say "If I'm not sure..." and NOT "If I know I can't..." I'd rather bow out gracefully than look like a fool who can't complete an edit.

$ 100/hour for a Videographer is insane. When we did some shoot (sit down interviews with stars) for the Toronto Film Fest we paid the Cameraman $ 35/hour, on a 4 hour minimum call. If it's a union guy they charge between $ 50-$ 60/hour. It's not good to low ball but it's not good to over charge either.

Noel: I disagree. $140 wouldn't cover my half day rate WITHOUT gear.

Alright, for the sake of discussion, I just quoted a "2 hour" gig from 2pm to 4pm a 20 minute drive from me. I quoted $400 + tax.
Labour - $250
Camera Kit - $150 (JVC HD200 w. stick mic, on camera light, tripod w. Fuji Zoom Demand, field monitor)
5 piece Location Light Kit - Free, value added

I can't do any work for the hour before or the hour following by the time load in/out and set up/tear down is factored in, therefore it's a half day gig. Why am I throwing in the lights for free? The client is likely to be concerned about the cost of the gig and the EASIEST thing to trim from the budget is stuff I don't want trimmed, like lights, so I'm eating that.

Shaun, no disrespect if you are charging $ 100/hour. I am just replying to your post about some guys charging $ 100/hour with nothing to show for it. I just want to point out that majority of the Cameraman freelance pool in Toronto gets paid $ 35/hour. And they are considered to be on top of the food chain. Maybe I am speaking AV rate vs. Production House rate, but $ 100/hour in the AV world is unheard of.

Just curious Noel - are they supplying KIT for that??? If so, what are they showing up with? A Betacam or XDCam HD camera rental is going to be north of $400 a day.

And no offense taken. Just a VERY open discussion of rates.

Shaun, we supply the gear all they need to do is show up and shoot. I just saw your costing for a 2 hour shoot for comparison purposes this is how we will charge it.

Sony EX1 - $ 275 with 1 card ( $25/per additional card)
Sachler Tripod- $ 50
3 Red Heads - $ 90
Wireless Lav kit - $ 75
4 hour labour - $ 200 ( we mark-up the $ 35)
Delivery/Strike: $ 80

Total: $ 770.00

I forgot the monitor will be an extra $ 35

My quote is for a Lowel ProLight/RIFA 55 kit (no charge, as mentioned - my 4 Redhead kit stays home unless I NEED the extra punch), JVC HD200 HDV (client wants a "news style" camera as part of the presentation), wired stick mic (specifically no wireless), Manfrotto 501/525 kit with Fuji Zoom Demand, and my director's monitor (19" HDTV - my 9" reference monitors with HD-SDI are more).

$35 an hour for LABOUR is fair, depending on individual ability to generate work of course. 2 hours a week, it ain't worth getting out of bed for but 4 - 5 days a week, 5+ hours a day with some going 10... you can make a go of it. I work for more than that freelance but for less when I was shooting news.

Thanks for sharing.

Noel,

I can't help but comment here.

You have mentioned $100 per hour for a videographer is insane yet on the following page you itemized out a $770 bill.

I have to wonder, if you needed to hire a videographer and their kit, would you then pay them anything close to $700 for their services?

In my opinion, insane is a poor choice of words.

Tim, I think this is a perfect example of why DISCLOSURE is such an important part of these "how much" conversations ESPECIALLY when the "target audience" is folks in their first couple of years of transitioning to video production to a full time pursuit because it exposes business models that may not be instantly apparent. There are a TON of "indie filmmakers" on here that are looking to monetize their passion and ONLY know the "I own everything, I bring everything, I shoot everything, I edit everything" model.

There are rental items, freelance labour, freelancers with core gear, production houses, AV houses, union call lists... the list is long and confusing. By having the "uncomfortable" discussion of what would YOU charge as opposed to "what do you think I should charge", I think great wisdom is shared, albeit at the risk of the unscrupulous using our information against us.

I have LONG rallied against doing stuff for free or for low cost, which is where this discussion began. Perhaps this sort of disclosure from industry pros representing slightly different business models may help to bridge the gap and build some allies in the fight to lose "the gig" solely based on personality conflict or artistic vision and NOT based on who will slit who's throat more completely.

Tim, okay it may be a poor choice of word. $ 100/hour LABOUR for a Cameraman is unheard of in the AV industry is what I should have said

If I were to hire a videographer plus kit base on Shaun's specification it all goes back to what this thread is all about. There will be guys charging between $ 400-$ 500 and there will be low ballers charging $ 250. We usually go with the $ 400-$ 500 guy who knows their stuff rather than risk losing a client coz $ 250 guy forgot to check audio.

What I find around here is camera people with gear that fail to add in their equipment into there fees.

They spend a small fortune on gear then book out at $35 an hour WITH kit. Often even throwing in the editing. Insane. They wonder why they are bankrupt in a year. Unfortunately a lot of clients around here are now expecting that kind of rate because, "That is what we have been charged in the past".

It's insane, but how does one compete with that in a bad economy? A lot of these guys do decent work. They are all just always on the edge of bankruptcy and are afraid of charging more than the other guy out of desperation.

I even know someone that is doing a hockey game webcast with his own gear for $40 a game plus a 30 second "ad" on the drop down screen at 1st intermission (that no one really watches).

No worries Noel.

Thanks for clarifying.

To Denny, charging including equipment costs os tricky. As shown by Noel's response.

His rate was $770 for providing all of the equipment and hiring a shooter.

When the shooter shows up with all of the support equipment the rate goes down to $400-$500. Where did the $270 go?

There is only so much one can charge due to market perception of the service within a certain range. But in many instances, clients would feel like you were sticking it to them by itemizing equipment costs when you own the gear.

I have looked at an all-rental business model but to be honest, what I would have to charge would drastically reduce the number and type of clients I would have a shot at.

True owning equipment leads to lowballing because one can pay the equipment off over time instead of paying for the entire rental cost per job, but owning lets one know your equipment more intimately and be ready for work at any time.

But you are correct, you need to stand up for your own time and efforts and charge a real amount no matter if you own the stuff three times over.