Lowballers
 

I had a meeting with a woman today who was looking for people who could produce commercial spots from beginning to end (short story: her business model is fatally flawed so if I get work from her I'm asking to be paid up front).

After explaining to her that you CAN'T film a professional-looking commercial spot in two hours (!), she asked me how much to shoot and edit a large four-hour fund-raising reception, including interviews and guest speakers, into a five-minute promotional video. I quoted her a rock-bottom price for a two-camera crew (considering the coverage she wanted).

She seemed a little taken aback and replied that she had spoken to someone who could shoot and edit the spot for $250. And according to her, the work he's done before is impressive (although it's the opinion of an uneducated eye).

Is that what's it's come down to now? That's why I am very reluctant to do events such as weddings and receptions, you're up against every yahoo with a camcorder who's managed to figure out which end to point. They undercut you by hundreds of dollars for a quick buck and give up on the business after a year because they can't sustain themselves at such low rates - but the pros who have been at it for years are left with a market that expects to pay misery wages, and five more camcorder jockeys to take the place of the aforementioned yahoo.

Interestingly, the woman told me that I am at the top of her list because, of the seven candidates she interviewed, I was the only one to insist on the importance of lighting and hair/make-up for a commercial spot. Apparently, no one else felt it mattered much in producing something that looks professional.

So that's what's out there, folks. That's our competition.

Jacques,

Just walk away...

While there are those delusional people that believe this - they will find out that they get what they pay for.

Just keep working to distinguish your work from the amateurs.

If you think it's bad for us - think about professional photogs, I think that they have it far worse.

Remember that with the major shift to online video - (and I'm not talking about crap on Youtube, but mid to high level productions for small to medium businesses), this is an incredible opportunity for those who are poised and ready.

I also have been experiencing a lot of that lately. Now I hate to just tell a prospect on the phone "if your budget isn't at least $xxxx please don't waste my time" but I'm close.

In the past few months I've had more than one prospective client ask for a face-to-face meeting, often with multiple staff members, only to find out 30 minutes into the meeting that they're looking at spending $500. Seriously? You thought it was appropriate for me to invest several man-hours into preparation for this meeting and interrupt the schedules of one or more of my employees only to find out you want to keep this project "under $500"??? My goodness sir, I should bill you $500 for this meeting alone!

Any suggestions for "pre-qualifying" these clients?

Can't think of any better advice that I can add.

but, leave your card anyway...there's a slight chance you'll get a phone call from them (or in my case, their replacement) in about four weeks, deperate for someone to 'fix this mess'.

Welcome to the new world folks!
This is what's happening in every facet of every business.
Those of us who have been around awhile simply can't charge what we used to.

I'm primarily an editor but have done a fair amount of shooting. I used to rent gear and hire crew and that's just not feasible any more for most clients. I ended up purchasing the basics (camera/lights/audio) and doing everything myself unless I can get a decent budget. While my upfront cost was substantial, I don't say no to much of anything these days as it's income. Quantity of work has made up for the smaller budgets. The hardest thing for me is judging the client. Do I give them my book rate up front (which scares off all but the most experienced clients) or do I try to pry out of them what the budget is and figure out how to make them and myself happy? Sometimes you sacrifice the quality of the end product but the client always needs to be made aware of those sacrifices.

Reality is I'd rather work for a lower rate than sit around twiddling my thumbs! However, I do have a lowest possible rate that I will not go below. Careful attention to budgeting is key and I factor in travel, setup/teardown, and several other seemingly minute details that can destroy a budget before you know it.

I believe your work will tell the tale. If you are doing things right, your prices will be a reflection of the quality of work you do. Morons who undercut everyone cannot possibly do the quality of work that a true professional does. The two are mutually exclusive.

There will always be idiots who charge way too little, and ones who charge way too much. And if your prospective clients don't know the difference, RUN the other direction from them.

I call them (both service providers and customers) a CraigsList Generation. If you ever look through ads posted there for gigs or crew, the knife opens by itself in your pocket. Everyone expect pro service and looks for free or close to.

Save yourself a headache and let her go somewhere else.

The absolute best way to combat this is to stand by your pricing and your quality. If someone wasn't offering a video for $250 this lady probably still wouldn't contract you. As others have said, just walk away and let her come back when she's ready for something professional.

I'm not one to easily sympathize with wedding photogs - but I was at a bridal show this weekend where photogs were battling over brides, and there was one company who prominently displayed a banner with the package listed below:

2 Hour Engagement Shoot
Minimum 25 Ready to Print Engagement Images
8 Hours of Wedding Day Coverage
Minimum 300 Ready to Print Wedding Images
Personal Online Photo Gallery
5 DVD Photo Set
10 Day Photo Turnaround
$895.00

Like another photog said who was right beside me, 'that's not sustainable...' Which is indeed the case. Even if you were booked each weekend (both days) for 16 straight weeks - you'd be looking at about 30k worth of revenue.

Craigslist is a free market with a lot of opportunities for almost everything. Not only people lowballing us there, but every other pros.
Perhaps I am just stepping in to the business, and putting many efforts to keep the potential clients, I never go lower than average pro market prices are. Not that I am charging high, but keep it in the gold middle sometimes touching the lower border. If person starts talking about low ballers out there I ask what does he/she do for living and explain them the situation using examples from their profession. I have mentioned that people who can afford market prices are more educated about basics of my work that others who do not understand anything about it and try to pay as low as possible. If there is any potential in them to pay more, I would use it, and advice them not to go lower than it costs in real world.
Even if I don't have a lot to offer as my reel, I know my work has value. I am sure some established guys out there may not like my rates as well, but it is not a "dollar stealing" situation, it's competition.
I prefer to please my customer with a stock of few free DVDs at the end. The other day I have made a short recap video for no charge without telling them about it. It lives them with a good impression.

It's good to hear that I wasn't just thinking the exact same thing to myself (that people want video stuff done for $200).

I know I'm relatively new at owning the videography business, but I had experience in the field prior to starting up...but people hear that I've owned the business for six months, and they automatically think that's supposed to equal low low low prices.

I'd like to hear any other suggestions some of you guys have as far as "battling" those low-baller folks.

Or what do you say to the person that tries to undercut your quote by saying they "don't need lighting" or ask if we only do one or two takes "so there's not a lot of editing" if it would be cheaper..

fast, cheap, quality, pick one...

I actually believe that makes people's expectations even lower. The woman I met kept repeating that she wanted her web content`to be "equivalent to what we see on TV", as though she had come up with a revolutionary concept.

J.

I don't think that's the case with this type of client. They go with the low-baller, get crappy work but by now have blown their budget. Their mistake benefits no one, because the next client will think they can get a deal for $250 too, and the cycle repeats.

The low-ballers don't count on repeat business to make money. They just rely on the inexhaustible supply of pigeons out there.

The one that makes me laugh is, "We want to create a promotional piece, but there's no budget for it." Okay, so you want to promote something, but you already know that it's going nowhere... so you can't budget for promo work. Thanks, but call me when you find something that is worth promoting.

You need to walk away from clients that don't appreciate your work, and that are obviously grinding you down. But as with everything else, it's best to not take it personally. See it from their point of view (everyone wants a deal, I do too). Educate them a little. When you are starting it's more difficult to pass up work, but just by sticking with your prices you earn a bit of respect, and who knows, they may pay you what you are worth.

Jordan, we've had several experiences with clients who try to whittle down the service by saying, "We don't need this, we don't need that." You need to say, "In order for us to provide you with the top service we are capable of, actually you do need that. I'm sorry but we just don't offer a low budget service. That's because we refuse to create a low budget product."

I don't agree with the argument that the "yahoos" spoil the biz for us pro's. I've been hearing that one for a while. I honestly think that the type of client we want would never hire such a person. And those that do are going to learn quickly from the results and be ready to budget for more the next time around.

Isn't the saying pick two? ;)

I remember it from a car performance forum I use to frequent : Fast, Cheap, Reliable. Pick two.

In the theme of walking away, I'm inclined to actually say: "I can't beat that amazing price. You should definitely go with them."

When the client has fallen on their face with the cheap fellas, they (hopefully) won't mind paying properly to have it done right the next time. ... which is where you come in, somewhere in the future.

Andrew

Price...
 

There is a percentage of the population whose only criteria for purchasing anything, product or service, is price. And there is a percentage that consider price secondary. That's the way it always has been and the way it always will be.

The most common thing I get nowadays is "I can shoot it myself can you edit for me?" I've even got a computer store that I send all of my computer work through who got a commercial done through a local tv station (which frankly is the real problem, talk about lowballers that make total crap!). He told me he knew it was going to be aweful, but didn't call me because he knew they couldn't afford me. Now, they don't know what I charge, BUT, the ABC station did the commercial for FREE FREE people FREE. Because they were buying airtime. Unbelievable. Thank god for weddings.
Bill

Except that the commercial shoot effectively wasn't free. Not unless they were wanting to advertise the fact that they are an awfully daggy business. One wonders how much it has really cost them.

On the other hand, the guys at the TV station make your work look good by comparison.

Andrew

I think it's not just the videogs/photogs that are getting hit. I saw an Ad at Craigslist, " DJ wanted, 7p-12am, must have own equipment, technobeat, etc. $ 85 FIRM, I am not paying more than that."

Let me play devil's advocate about sustainability, $ 850 for 16 weeks is good revenue at least for me. I work for an AV Company and we compete with another AV Company we call the whore, they drop their pants for whatever money so as long as they do the show. For years, they were being brushed off as " amateurs, they can't sustain the business because of their pricing, do they know how much a 10K Lumen Projector cost, maintainace, etc, etc". Last year they bought 2 AV companies, now they are a force to reckon with. I spoke to the owner and his logic is volume of work, I'd rather have 15K in money than 30K in papers. There will be amateur low ballers, then there are Still Motion caliber low ballers, I guess we all have to adapt to the change or we sink.

I use to freelance for a Photog, 3 years ago he books 60 weddings a year. He has this take it or leave it attitude, I won't go down in pricing coz I have been doing this for 25 years, etc, etc. Last year he did 4 weddings, he dropped his pricing but I guess the change was too late.

My opinion & 2 cents.

On the other side of the coin, I hate it when clients say "Oh, that's all? I thought it would be more..." I actually had that happen yesterday and I thought of this thread. It's a simple seminar shoot, just edit out the breaks and put on DVD for the client. Not to mention the seminar is being held literally across the street. I plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet and it said $850. I don't know what price she was bracing for, but it must have been far higher.

Yeah, but Noel.....

There was a time when videographers and photographers had their own studios...
Now their working from home to save costs...
Now they're expected to drop their prices to compete with the kid down the road, who has a video camera and a Craigslist ad?

I've talked with many photogs, and after 25 years, if they've gotta "whore" themselves out, then they'd be better off working at Walmart. At least it's steady work and benefits.

We have a local successful DJ service. They started offering DJ/Photo/Video services at cut throat prices..They're paying kids $100....YES $100.....for all day taping and stills...

Their theory is like Noel said, "volume".....But it only brings everybody down..
Reminds me something out of the movie Boogie nights, when the producers turned from film to VHS...

Hi Peter, I see where you are coming from. I do not condone the practice of low balling & I agree that the practice will bring the industry down, just how this AV Company made the audio-visual industry as a commodity and no longer who has the better techs, the better equipment, etc, etc. For multiple breakout rooms they throw in a kid who just turns on the power for the PA system /projector and call them your AV tech for the day.

But in the end as somebody posted here, there will always be the low ballers and it is a business decision on how we should adapt, ,my pricing is in between the low ballers & the high end market.

Great thread btw.

I wonder what happens when the kid doesn't show up.

Andrew

@Robert
>I'd rather work for a lower rate than sit around twiddling my thumbs!

I disagree. Your rate is the value of your talent. If people can't afford your talent, then supplement your video work with something that earns you the money you need. Either that or reduce your cost of living (which is not always an option). Fight for your rate.

BTW, I love your green-screen work. Very nice. A fellow HMC150 user in Phoenix!

Hi Noel,

I suspect the phenomenon is quite broad. The print publishing industry giants fell with the intervention of self-publishing using digital processes. The music giants are crumbling in the face of self-marketing by individual musicians who can now produce high-end looking and sounding products by themselves using inexpensive CD and DVD automated duplication companies. The film studios are now desperately trying to headoff the independent producer/marketer/distributer who can do it on their own. Looks like it is now spreading beyond the giants and creeping into the arena of the medium-sized businesses like professional wedding and event videographers and competing with them as well.

All of this seems to be driven by the increasingly potent individual logistical support provided by digital wow! equipment allowing individuals to dabble in just about everything. The populist approach is great fun for the individual where really all that matters is the content (as several people have commented on the quality of YouTube presentations).

I guess the end result is a more widespread opportunity for creativity on an individual level, but a significant diminishment in the overall quality of what we see, especially in areas where previously only a pro could participate.

The giants of the publishing and music industries failed to find a new business model that would support them. It doesn't look like the film studios are really looking for a new business model -- they are simply trying to build a wall so the independent can't get in.

Perhaps we need to try to figure out a business model that will work in the face of these new factors (widespread availability of digital equipment in many areas that allow indivudals to do it themselves at a low level, a preception of "it's easy to do" and therefore should be cheap and quick, and a loss of expectations for quality or even an unerstanding of what is quality).

I sure wish I had the answer, but maybe seeing the problem from a broader perspective will assist us to find the new models.

Alan

I feel that we will always be ahead of the game - regardless of cheap techno-gadgets. We've got talent, a multitude of little tools, experience, and the technical knowledge to put everything together in post. That's what we charge for and why everyone else will come up short -- unless they win $10K on AFV.

So last night I'm talking to the father of the bride of the last wedding I shot (whole family goes to my church), and he said that their photog... who also happens to be a friend of the couple... is doing three or four weddings a month during the summer. And he's not cheap ($3k+). And he's only in his mid 20's

I have another friend from college who is a photog and isn't cheap either, and he's always busy and makes a pretty comfortable living. He's my age in his early 30's

The common denominator? They're both REALLY good.

I agree with Dana. People will pay for your work if you've got talent and offer them something they're willing to pay for. Yes, there will always be the lowballers and people who don't see anything past the price, but there always have been.

The woman I spoke to is also looking at volume to compensate for the lower rates she'll charge advertisers. But she thinks it's realistic to expect to shoot two spots a day. She's obviously never done this if she thinks that shooting a commercial is a matter of walking in, having your people speak their lines, and leaving with a cheque in your pockets. She says she doesn't want to "impose" on the client, but she doesn't realize how that affects the end product.

But what really killed the deal for me was her faulty business model. She intends to have all the ads that she produces shown on a web site - no other content. I guess in all the months she spent developing this idea, she's never asked herself who would go to a web site just to watch commercials.

Not if the budgets low enough, but then again you probably don't get 3 to pick from either...

Alan -
You hit the nail on the head - the "digital revolution" makes the "tools" more and more affordable and of higher quality... This of course means in theory eventually 1000 monkeys with video cameras hooked to a computer mainframe with an AI that chooses all the "best" shots using the patented Lucasberg algorithm can create the next blockbuster movie... or not.

Like ALL tools, in the wrong or inexperienced hands, they are ineffective, and in fact can be DANGEROUS! In the hands of a craftsman/artist they can create something of value. It's the carpenter, not the saw...

In the end, to create a working living you still need a viable business proposition/model, knowledge about the equipment and techniques needed to get quality results, and the skill and dedication to pull it off with a professional demeanor...

Plus the ability to market yourself and your results in a way that makes it painfully obvious that that "freeeee/cheap" product with the blown out, oddly white balanced video, and the muddy mess of a sound track that's a torture to watch is an embarrasment to the client... and you care too much to deliver such shoddy work.

IMO, QUALITY always stands out, no matter what the price (and I've often found true artists "undercharging" for superior results, yet happily doing lots of business). Video/audio production is not like Mickey D's where you can systemize and train any greasy haired teenager to produce the same thing thousands of times...

The scary thing is that same teenager who really does have some serious talent and decides to pass on the burger joint job - he or she doesn't have to make very much to come out ahead!

I certainly don't lowball now that I've been in the business 3 years. In the beginning I offered lower rates. I did pretty decent work using one camera and lower end lighting and audio. I got good reviews and few referrals. To this day I use craigslist to advertise. I haven't found a successful way to advertise. Potential clients asking me to film their wedding (bride/groom getting ready, ceremony, reception) for $300 is annoying. I still get calls and emails with people loving my demos and are ready to book for a fair price. (from craiglist)

Because business hasn't been coming in much, I work a security job to help keep money coming in to support my small family. I still haven't been able to get another camera and upgrade my equipment much. I do what I can and make do with what I have. I now offer 2 camera shoots but I need to rent the camera. I'm not giving up and I'll fight to keep in the business. I love working with video and that will keep me going.

This whole technology sea-change has done the same thing to graphic design, which is my background. Even the secretary thinks she can do some "desk-top publishing". MS Word has so much to answer for!!!

When other designers are complaining about this, my answer is simply this: "The role of the amateur is to make the professional look good."

In that sense, long live the Uncle Jerrys of the world.

Andrew

Andrew, there is a lot to be said for that.

And if the Uncle Jerry's of the world don't make you look good... then one of you needs to make a career change =)

I gree that most of these people will go to their graves thinking how clever they were to get a video produced for $200 or less...nevermind that it's handheld, the built-in mic can't pick up the dialogue over the air conditioner, and the only light source is a window directly behind the CEO.

But, a few people get it...sometimes it takes getting burned a couple of times before they realize James Cameron isn't looking for work on craigslist. I find generally, how much people are willing to pay is often proportional to how much they feel their butt is on the line...that's why you don't see $200 Volvos.

I don't know about low balling, but my wife is beginning to think her husband has more balls than brains picking a time like this to retire early from a job in health care to start a video biz. It's hard in my area to find video work at ANY price right now. Most of the other videographer web sites in my local area are now gone. I certainly didn't steal any of their business away, even though I'm trying the cost effective approach, because I didn't get any business either. Tough times are here. It takes talent, tenacity, and maybe even a miracle or two.

So why did you leave that nice health job? I'm very mindful (from stories told by friends) of just how much of a mess the US economy is in.

Andrew

I left largely for health reasons. My blood pressure medication was no longer keeping my blood pressure under control. 190 over 130, in my cardiologist's office, isn't sustainable for long. Being broke is better than having a stroke. I had two friends have strokes on the clock. Another had a heart attack and died (on the clock). Money isn't everything.