Voice Recorders, etc
 

Hello everyone.

Am doing a wedding in a fortnight. I am a pro-am; want to move into pro in due course.

Is a portable voice recorder (eg Olympus/Sony) with its own builtin mike (and placed on groom/celebrant)
better than a lav wireless to a recording laptop?

Any recommendation as to a voice recorder unit you have had good results with?

I am in Australia so choice may not be as great as North America.

Many thanks.

A wireless lav connected to a laptop is always risky, sometimes laptops crash while you are recording and you lose everything its always better to have a dedicated recording device like a Zoom H4n. If you are looking for something small have a look at the Zoom H1 which is highly recommended and extremely affordable.

The H1 is small and have built in sterio mic and also possible to plug in external mic. I have one and is easy to use, records to wav up to 96/24 bit or mp3 at 46-320 kbit. Auto or manual gain. Battery lasting 10 hours. Has a lock button. Recording to a laptop is ok if you trust the laptop to run for extended time.

Hi David

I'm old school so I use radio mics. At least I know if the unit is recording and I can monitor it and adjust the level if needed. I have heard too many horror stories about DVR's being put in the groom's pocket and then been forgotten to have been turned on!!!

With weddings always have a backup somewhere!! If you miss the vows you are in big trouble!!! I make sure I have a camera fairly close to the couple with the Rode VideoMic turned on plus 2 x wireless lavs. Even if both lavs fail I at least have some audio to use!!! If you can, backup your backup too!! you can always hide another DVR near the couple as well.

Chris

From the information in this thread, I chose to go with Yamaha Pocketrak CXs and Giant Squid Lavs. Anyways, lots of good input here.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...eless-mic.html

We moved away from wireless mic's years ago. We've been using various models of the Olympus brand DVR's with great results. 99.9% of the time the audio has been perfect. The only real issue is that depending on the model you may have drift in the audio, which a bit of a hassle but is easily fixed.

Vows
 

Does anyone mic the Officiant in addition to the groom? I've noticed sometimes the Minister will speak while not so close to the groom and there's a noticeable difference in audio quality between him and groom.

We always mic both the groom and the officiant. We also mic the church or DJ speakers and record out to a Zoom H4N.

Zoom H1
 

Thanks for the good info guys.

I just bought ONE Zoom H1 so will test it out shortly.

Seems like TWO might be a good idea but will see the results first.

Dave

Two H1's would be ideal, try to get external Lav mics for them at a later stage as well.

This might sound weird but what Chris says here is important, have a back-up for your back-up - it's saved my ass having three point audio sources.

IMHO the serious drawback with separate recordings of any system is the accuracy of the synchronisation and the time it takes to get even close. I think none of the kit mentioned in this thread is professional in the sense that it is properly synchronised to the video (anyone else here remember the palaver of synching sound to film?).

Philip the days of complicated audio to video synchronization is long gone thanks to award winning software called PluralEyes. We use multiple audio sources and let PluralEyes do it's thing, the days of manual synchronization is over, accuracy with PlrayEyes is incredible. If I could give any awards I could declare PlurayEyes product of the decade.

Singular Software - PluralEyes

David, attempting to answer your OP:

If you intend to make a living from your interest, hobby, skill etc then your capital expenditure needs to be applied in the most effective way.

Rather than simply spend x$ on something now to make do, it might be worth getting something of better quality that will last you well into your first three years.

To that end, I purchased Marantz DPM 661s. Very affordable media (SDHC), excellent quality with differing format settings. XLR with phantom power options as well as an internal mic array. Rugged construction and long battery life at an affordable price, circa: $US 650.

Better to use a lav radio mic on the Groom (check out Audio Technica radio mics). A bit pricey, but if you are intending to do this for a living then you really do need to step up to the plate here.

But what of your Camera mic/audio setup? As often as not (and I speak using a Sony Z5 and NX5) the hypercardoid (short shotgun) on the camera can be a life saver shooting from about 10-12 feet away - not ideal, but it can be very acceptable.

:)

Nicholas, my reading is that Plural Eyes is clever, it gives only a rough accuracy compared to "proper" sync and furthermore doesn't address the drift inherent in these consumer recorders discussed by the OP. I don't use the term consumer derogatorily - indeed I use a Zoom H4 myself - but it has such serious limitations I would never use it for key sound and never when the option was to record in sync on the camera.

Claire's general point about investment is spot on, this is a serious business and there are few cheap short cuts.

I agree 100% Philip!! That's why I still use radio lapel mics for primary audio. I have also read too many horror stories where the Zoom was accidentally left on standby and no vows were ever recorded!!

Of course, the lack of real-time monitoring is still my main concern with a stand-alone device and it's sure comforting to be able to listen to the vows audio and even adjust the level if needed without having to rely on hoping the DVR is doing a good job!!

Miss the vows audio and you have a serious problem as to the professionalism of your operation

Chris

Philip & Chris agreed, I have four radio mic's myself however David asked for advice on voice recorder not radio mics & recording to a laptop which would indicate his camera doesn't have XLR inputs to begin with. I'm not aware of any noticeable drift with the Zoom H4n & I'm a stick for perfection, a clever high quality compromise can be achieved with the latest voice recorders - the Zoom H4 on the other hand does have documented drift.

Live monitoring of audio is the best solution for troubleshooting and avoiding disasters but from all the weddings I've done audio has been good to perfect using radio mics, portable recorders as back-ups & I've done very little in terms of monitoring & tweaking.

Recording at 96khz/24bit gives me the latitude to set a recorder at an acceptable low level to avoid distortion & boots the levels in post without getting any hiss.

I can't help but laugh a bit at the argument that using DVR's is not a professional solution. I heard the same argument when I switched to DVR's years ago and started trying to get others to give them a try. I'm glad I didn't listen back then. 6 years and dozens and dozens of projects later and I can still say I've had no problems (ZERO) with using the DVR's. Many others in the industry are now using DVR's and loving them but some people continue to make the argument that they are not a professional solution. I guess my experience and the experience of many others will have to disagree with this opinion. d;-)

Also, FYI, I've had no issue at all with drift with our H4n.

I also moved away from using wireless mic. Now I'm using an Olympus voice recorder for vows. Then use a zoom audio recorder positioned to the speakers for continous audio recording. It works so well

Check out this video the sound is recorded with a zoom H2

Travis, a small correction, my comments were not that to use DVRs is unprofessional, but that the machines themselves don't meet professional specs - as has been reported here and elsewhere.

Since you've not experienced drift I can only congratulate you on a very fortunate purchase.

Sorry about that Phillip. Upon re-reading your earlier post I see what you're saying.

That said, I do experience drift with the DVR's we use but it's a pretty quick correction since the amount of drift stays consistent per device. For me, it's much better than dealing with interference because that is something that cannot be corrected in post. The primary reason we moved to DVR's was to avoid transmission-based audio and the interference that can come with that technology.

But yeah, no drift with the H4n.

I use Irivers for the vows and directly tap into the DJ's mixer during reception. The only draw back for the Irivers is you can't monitor sound as there is no levels to look at. For back-up I rely on my Camera's shotgun microphone. Here is a sample of directly tapping at the DJ's mixer.

Do you feel you lose the ambient sound of the excitement of the guests?

Hi Michael, for the dance portion, I don't feel the lose of ambiance, I do switch to the shotgun mic for the applauses after a speech or the first dance coz the podium microphone won't capture the applauses that much.

How are people using these recorders? ie do you set them at a certain level and hope they don't peak yet still pick up enough volume, or do you use AGC and hope that it doesn't raise the level too much in quiet parts?

I've been thinking of ways to become more mobile when shooting weddings single handed (ie - how can I move around the church to get different angles without screwing up my audio consistancy?) and Digital Recorders seem like the answer. A few of them placed strategically (groom, officiant, lecturn, etc) would let me stop stressing about audio by having multiple back-ups/options, then I'd be able to leave my primary camera (which I use to monitor audio from the wireless lav and shotgun) unnattended for short periods while I move around to reposition cameras or get cut-aways.

John, the Olympus DVR's we use don't allow you to set a specific level, so we use the DICT preset and the results have been great. The AGC on these works very well with that preset. Audio is never too low and never too hot. Could you get it slightly better if you were monitoring levels manually in real time? Probably, but not by much.

With the Zoom H4n, on the other hand, we do set levels.

I feel that dance video was a little bit "dry" that it doesn't have much ambiance sound. I tried several method that I found having a Zoom H2 positioned near the speaker gives the best results. If that is not possible, I will have the voice recorder placed on top of the speaker and have a wired lav mic dangling in front of the speaker.

Either case, AGC is off. Some recorded volume is low but it can be fixed easily in post without any distortion.

Hi Michael,

Some day, for giggles and grins, when you got the time, try mixing the shotgun and the feed together. Set the feed audio a tad higher so it remains your dominant audio source, and set the shotgun audio just below that, to fill in when the feed drops to that level. See if you like the results of the two together.

This is what I do a lot and it works very well. Sometimes people say hi to the couple or are singing to each other (without the DJ or band mic) and the camera mic picks it up very well.

Thanks for the feedback Taky & Michael. After watching an MTV Super Sweet 16 episode, I did find the ambiance lacking for the dance.

Clip that was a brilliant advice, for the main edit, I'll do exactly what you told me to.

I usually do something similar with wedding ceremonies. If the sound from the officiant's and groom's mic are the only sound source used in the edit, the sound is often too flat and colorless. It doesn't matter if it's a recorder or wireless. The result is the same with either. I position a recorder to record ambient or 'room' sound and mix some of that when I edit. This provides a much more realistic sound.

We always mix audio from multiple sources at different levels. It's the best way to enhance what you want the viewer to hear.

I have always believed that if you can see action, or perceive there are actions going on, you should also be able to possibly hear some of the sounds associated with those seen or perceived actions.

This is one of my favorite fun music videos, but after you watch it a time or two you realize you do not hear sound #1 come from the crowd around the stage, at all .

YouTube - Leningrad Cowboys & Red Army Choir - SWEET HOME ALABAMA

I put my hand up for being one who had forgotten to turn on the audio recorder on the groom! Worst, I used an old battery on my backup recorder, so that one died as well..

Last week I finished editing the ceremony and luckily my 3 RODE videomics have captured the audio acceptably!

Nevertheless, I have added a Zoom H1 in my gear list plus some powerex/eneloop batteries..

My setup now is to mic the officiant, groom, and if possible audio out from a mixer in the church; all into audio recorders (the H1, Olympus DS-30 and Sony NetMD). And there's always the 3 RODE recording.. I found the RODE gives more realistic audio with the ambience etc.. while the officiant/groom mic specifically for vows and other important speeches.

I just did a wedding on Saturday, and I go to plug into the DJ booth as usual and place some ambient mics. I don't have LAV's or radio transmitters, so I usually rely on the DJ's feed and camera mics, however I just bought an H4N for another backup source.

So the DJ does his mic test, and I tell him there is this horrible buzzing sound coming from the feed, as well as the speakers. He tells me that the officiant isn't speaking loudly enough and that he had to turn it up really loud and that was creating the buzzing, (BS.) but he told him to speak louder so it should be fine now.

So, not trusting this already incompetent DJ. I unplug from the booth and put my H2 near where the bride and groom will be standing, facing away from the speakers as much as possible.

So the Ceremony starts, I'm up with my 50mm near the bride and groom on my shiny new fluid monopod, getting my best ceremony footage ever, and over my headphones I hear that horrible overpowering buzzing, I take my phones off, and the same thing, buzzing! I look back at the DJ and give him a "WTF" look, he does nothing. I can hear the guests mumbling about the buzzing, it was just awful. Not wanting a confrontation I don't say anything to anyone. And again during the speeches it happens yet again! I can't believe that this guy would let this horrible buzzing continue. So hopefully upon review of the audio I can filter this garbage out, in the mean time this guy needs his mix-master license revoked, as I don't know any way to have done this differently and not got that buzzing sound this save from using a throat mic on the bride, groom, and officiant.

It pays to keep in mind that DJs are 'entertainers'. Anything they know about sound is just coincidental. All of the carry-on while they play music isn't enhancing the sound, it's damaging it - especially that #$%@$# turntable. They don't play records with it. In fact, they don't even have any records. They use it to make that horrible scratching sound while they gyrate to make it seen that they are actually playing the music themselves. They will often suddenly jack up the volume while a song is playing to add to the intensity of the 'experience'. The best thing to do is to assume the DJ will hack up the sound and record the sound as independently as possible. One of the most difficult problems is those sudden blasts of feedback. Even if you are recording sound independently, your equipment will unavoidably pick it up and it's virtually impossible to filter out. Many DJs use feedback to set their sound level. They crank up the volume until they get feedback and then back it off a little. This often leaves them on the edge of feedback so you get that slight ringing on the sound when people speak. Since it's on the edge of feedback, it often breaks into screeching feedback again when someone moves or a different person speaks.

In more diplomatic terms I prepare the B&G that some audio problems caused by the DJ can't be fixed. That way they are at least forewarned. If you try to explain this after the fact, it can just sound like you are making an excuse.

It's worthwhile to record a feed off of the DJs board in case it turns out OK. But NEVER let that be your only sound source. If you do, you WILL regret it oftentimes.

THIS is why you must NEVER rely on "ambient" audio or someone else's equipment/skills... There's a reason to have either a recorder/lav or a wireless (or both) in the "hot zone(s)" during the ceremony, and if possible the reception.

While SOME DJ's might know their equipment and the technical aspects, many are just some kid hired to show up and "spin". They know about as much about electronics as they do their (ab)normally droopy drawers.

Even with knowledgeable DJ's, sometimes equipment failures happen, people "forget" to turn on mics, feedback happens, etc. etc. etc. Some of it you simply can't avoid, but other things you can, with careful prep/planning and "redundant" systems.

I just seem to have bad luck with sound, my first 3 weddings that I did for free, I plugged into the DJ booth and had great sound that I used from that. A paid wedding that I did, he forgot to send the signal to the "record" jack on the output. Another wedding, the officiant kept resting his bible on top of the microphone, muffling the sound. And at this wedding, the buzzing! I can't catch a break with sound! I guess i'm going to have to get some LAVs, but how do you mic the bride?

Hi Paul.

You don't mic the bride for the ceremony. Just put a radio lav on the Groom and his proximity should take care of the coverage of the Bride.

If you are to get the breaks, you really need to think through the "what ifs... and have a back up plan. Relying on the DJ to provide you with a clean feed is often hit/miss. Make alternative arrangements to get your own coverage and don't rely on anyone else except yourself.

Good luck Paul.

:)

Which is exactly why I didn't plug into the DJ booth last time around, so instead of relying on him I had 4 redundant mic sources in the room. Leave it up to him however to broadcast buzzing. Would a lapel mic not have picked this up as well?

Hi again Paul.

It appears that the DJ was leading the audio rig and you were left to pick up the scraps by the sound. One reason why it's useful to attend a rehearsal of the ceremony to make note of the logistics and what coverage you do need at any point in time. But it's a big mistake to rely on the house coverage. The DJ and a "house" PA system is not going to give you the right results.

The only coverage you need to focus on (in my thinking) is the ceremony and vows. For that you just need to mic the Groom. If the house DJ is popping, cracking and buzzing there ain't anything you can do about it except complain later (after the event). Placing mics around the room in the hope of capturing something is going to make things worse (if you can't isolate those tracks) especially if the DJ is freaking.

:)