Amanda, while your passion about weddings was obvious from your first post, your skills, knowledge, awareness of the subject was not.
That explains the negaiveness of some of the responses.

Now, going back to my other reply to you, are you going to give us some tips about what the brides want? I would really love to hear a woman's (who had being a bride recently) point of view.

Have you seen the work of some of the best wedding cinematographers around? Would you take a different approach? If so why?

Your answers might help some of us produce better wedding videos and (to your benefit) will definately help us recommend you the best tools for the job.

Cheers

Amanda -

I'll be a bit of the heretic here and once again say it's not the camera it's the "nut" behind it that counts! If you've truly been gifted with "the eye", all the rest you can learn... and if you have "the eye" you could shoot with a cheap camera and probably get good results... I have to "work" to get good shots, my wife just instinctively "nails" them....guess who has "the eye"? Just wish I could get her to shoot video, but she likes the "stills" side, no matter how nice the video capabilities are in the cameras I get along the way!

All of us have to learn the "tech side" to some extent, but the basics are fairly easy to learn, and you've got to have some "hands on" time with whatever camera you use to get the most out of it. The camera is a tool, and as you use it it becomes an extension of yourself, you learn what it can and can't do, and if you need "more" you know what to look for when it's time to "upgrade". To be quite blunt, the high end "consumer" cameras from the "big three" (Sony Canon Panasonic) have become very highly developed to where the auto functions often can adapt far faster than I can on a "manual" camera... you can take some pretty decent footage with 'em, and if you just know when and how to override the "auto", you are probably OK for most shoots! If you go towards the HDSLR side of things, again there's some pretty decent and relatively inexpensive choices out there, but you'll need to be more on top of the actual "running" of the camera. Depending on your market, you may not really "need" a "big", "professional" camera - it could be overkill and kill the budget unnecessarily!


You want to spend your equipment budget wisely, so if you're able to take some time, you can get professional evaluations of just about any camera in existence from perusing other setions of DVi, plus you'll run across links to other resources.

In the end, there are so many different styles of shooting and personal preferences, you can drive yourself nuts, and at some point I'd just say pick a camera, preferably find a used one in good shape, get it in hand and start shooting every chance you get - even just getting a small point and shoot camera that shoots video and taking it EVERYWHERE will start to fine tune your "shooting sense" - the more you shoot and edit, the more you'll figure out what it is you want. THEN you can more easily figure out what other "tools" you'll need to build your vision. The more you shoot with whatever you can get your hands on, the more the rest will "come into focus"!

Clearly you've got a love for video/cinema - that will help you, as you watch specific shots/movies start to think about what it is that makes those images "work" - things like color correction or post effects, how the camera moves or does not move, how the director frames and focuses the shots, etc. If you haven't already (and I'll bet you HAVE) watch any "making of" type extras on the discs you've got - you'll probably start to see all sorts of levels of gear (including some pretty cheap consumer grade cameras) floating around the sets! You use the tool that does the job...


As you run your budget, don't forget to include sufficient funding for extra/backup gear, including a second (or even third or fourth, depending on shooting style) camera, sufficient batteries and memory (all that little piddly stuff can add up fast!). Those are the things that will save you when "stuff happens".

Also be sure to budget for "grip" gear - meaning tripods, monopods, clamp pods, perhaps a shoulder mount, and maybe sometime along the way a steadicam or a slider. Again, much will depend on your shooting style, but keep in mind these are all TOOLS. With some practice/experience, you might decide that the allure of a steadicam or a particular expensive new "toy" really isn't all it's cracked up to be. I can "fake" quite a few motion shots with my shoulder rig or a monopod... with little or no "setup" time.

Frankly I'm a proponent of relatively cheap cameras, and several of them, strategically placed to get angles you need to cut to, relatively cheap but sturdy tripods and assorted other "fixed" camera mounts, and ONE camera/rig that you can move to get whatever shot you need. For audio I have a mix of wireless and small digital recorders/lav mics I can again strategically place as needed. With multicam, I can have several audio sources when I go to mix down. This hodgepodge of gear fits my shooting style, it might drive someone else completely crazy...

Ultimately you will need to develop your own shooting/editing/production/business "style", as have those here who have offered their viewpoints, don't take offense at any of it, we've all got "opinions" and you know the old saying about that!


As I look at your first post, I think what you really were after was a basic "kit" list, let me try that and see if it helps....

1. A minimum of two (preferably identical for redundancy) cameras - get the best low light and image stabilization performance you can find, make sure you're comfortable with how the camera "feels" to YOU, and that it has at least some access to controls to adjust image quality. Lots of good choices out there, if you stick to cameras released within the last 2-3 years, it'd be pretty hard to go too far "wrong"... Get batteries and memory sufficient to cover 2-3x the entire day.

2. At least one stable, TALL tripod that can be locked down, or if you will be using it to shoot from, has a good smooth pan/tilt action. I'd suggest you consider the Bogen 561 monopod (or at least the 560) with the fluid cartridge - very handy device and adds mobility/stability on the run, most people who have one swear by it, I finally got one of each, and they are a good investment. Alternatively a DV Multirig shoulder mount is worth considering, again they come highly recommended - there are less expensive alternatives too. You want to take the load off your back/feet/legs - lugging even a small camera around all day will beat you up pretty good otherwise! Hard to keep a camera steady when fatigue sets in you you're wobbly!

3. At least 2 digital audio recorders with lav mics - need to be small to fit on the groom or officiant. IRivers have been popular, Travis uses some Olympus models, there are various ones out there. Zoom H2 and H4/H4n are popular, but aren't particularly "pocketable", but handy for "ambient".

4. Some form of on camera light, with diffusion, because sometimes it's just too dark to shoot at receptions!

Why are you so defensive towards people that are trying to help you? You're on a awesome forum with people that have been in this business for 5, 10 and 20 years or more, and when they willingly and freely give you advice to help you with getting started you get your feelings hurt and lash out at them? That makes no sense.

Once again, NO ONE is telling you not to get into the business. The point you keep missing is that all of us here HAVE gotten into the business and we've all learned many things the hard way along the way. So when we see someone show up on the forum who wants to get into the business and has 'stars in her eyes' and 'just knows she'll do a great job because she was a bride once' and has admitted she is not a videographer and yet seems to think that the first logical step is deciding on what camera to buy ... well, most of us here know that this is not the best move. So we're simply giving you suggestions to help you get started in a way that is more logical and beneficial. If you're not a videographer then hands down the best way to get started in this business is to assistant someone else. You can be frustrated with that advice all you want but that doesn't make it bad advice.

Also, I don't think anyone here has been negative towards you. On the other hand, your approach of asking for advice and then showing frustration towards anyone who gives you advice you don't want to hear IS negative. I've been on this forum for a long time now and I make it a point to try and help everyone I can. You certainly don't have to take my advice (I mentioned that in my last post), but there's no need to get frustrated with me for giving it. That's not fair to me and it's disrespectful.

I wish you the best in your new venture and hope you can eventually see that we were all just trying to help you here. Good luck.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but on what often is a very stressful chaotic day (often with lots of stressed PEOPLE, some possibly drunk and behaving badly...), the camera is the LEAST of the things you'll have to deal with...

This isn't a business to dive into with "stars in your eyes", although a positive attitude will definitely help on the first "bridezilla" or just general "day that doesn't go as (un)planned", and you'll have to deal with "one of those days" eventually, sooner or later.

To become offended on one of the most professional forums available over a bit of "advice" seems a little hasty (maybe some of it came off as "negative"... actually more sarcastic, and with an added "wink" so it was meant in good intent... but that's the nature of open forum communication). To take offense here, I can't imagine what will happen on the first "MOB attack" at a wedding. Diplomacy skills and a calm cool demeanor when the world is falling apart rank REAL high on the "needed" tools/skills list if you shoot weddings...

I think every shooter here has learned from the school of "hard knocks", been offended, had disasters (some even posted here for sharing the misery!), dealt with difficult or awkward situations, and so on. Our choice of tools is pretty low down on the list of "worries", if I had to guess.

Obviously if you can frame, compose and properly expose a shot while shooting with a handheld rig of some sort while your locked down cam rolls, you're likely ahead of the guy with one cam and a tripod charging $800... But do you know if your market would even consider paying more than what is being charged (find out as cheaply as possible, just in case it doesn't), and until you've shot and edited one, you really have NO idea what's involved (unless of course you dig into the forums here, which will give you at least a good run of "tales from the front line"). Everyone else's "experience", while helpful, won't substitute for actual "live fire" experience and what you're shooting with won't matter...

Again, my advice is to pick up a used camera or two (even a couple cheap handycams of current manufacture will get passable results, the technology moves really fast, but it's how I started, and it worked out OK - todays' cameras are light years ahead of what I started on) and shoot a couple weddings for cheap or free. If after your first run or two you decide it's actually FUN (it takes a certain personality to actually DO wedding video), you can upgrade and collect all the other gear along the way as needed.


It's not the gear, it's the "nut" that runs it that matters... stop stressing over equipment, there's lots of options, as many as there are shooters here (I guarantee there are almost as many "kit" variations as there are posters!!). EVERY piece of equipment has it's plusses and minuses, limitations and places where it excells. If you asked "have you shot with Panasonic, Canon, or Sony", I'd venture to say most here would answer "yes, yes, and yes". If you ask "which camera should I buy" (the ginormous thread linked earlier), you'll get LOTS of people piping in with what they use and are happy with... Will it be the "right" camera or set of gear for you? Maybe yes, maybe not so much... and when next year brings new toys to market, the answer might be different.


If I tell you to go buy my rig, it might or might not suit you, Travis's setup might not "work" for me . "Down and dirty" Don Bloom has lots of experience, and he shoots a different setup quite successfully... Mark's advice is top notch, and he's regarded as a "guru" in the WV field, and I think he changes cameras almost as often as I do! OTOH, having read what these guys shoot, and having spent more than a day or two on DVi, I could probably walk in and pull off a wedding shoot with their kit, or they with mine, albeit with a bit more stress!

I think everyone is trying to help you here (even the sarcastic ones <wink>), and you won't find a better resource anywhere. Your initial post asked for: "Just wish I could have someone make my mind up who has some experience". You won't find ANY more experience anywhere else, and while we can make suggestions, take them for what they are worth, and give them time to digest, so when you decide, you'll feel you got the right kit for YOU. And if you later decide it wasn't, then you can trade up down or sideways - we ALL do it... I'd say "boys and our toys", but I'm guessing you like your toys TOO from your posts, so it's all good...


If you think you've narrowed down your field of possible candidates/kit purchases, you can post for "opinions", but frankly it was a bit odd to see a relatively aged SD camera (XL) on the same list with a current HD one... It struck me right away too, but it's probably just you're overwhelmed by all the "stuff" out there - that's where DVi comes in, you'll get the straight out, raw, honest opinions. Sometimes we "disagree", but that's OK too. Take some time to wander around DVi, it'll all fall into place.

Travis, I came here for a reason. I needed help from the big boys. I knew I was stepping into your world and said in my post that people likke you hate people like me. I knew to expect some freshman senior crap. But, admittinly, I did get frustrated. I took paper pencil notes from everyone's posts and was really appreciating the feedback. I ended up somehow getting portrayed as having my mind up to do things my own way and dismissing advice. I responded to the posts about observing for a while by stating that I would love to do that and even went as far to say I would drive far and pay if someone was close. Then I got portrayed as the cute little bride who wants to pick up a camera and be in the big league. Yes, I was a bride once, but what I tried conveying was that I know weddings in and out. Not because I was a bride, but because I had been performing in them since the age of twelve! So I am backwards to the people here. All of you who might have started with a cam and knew nothing about wedding ettiquette had to learn it. Well, I have the wedding ettiquette and need the video knowlege. But somehow I lost the little credibility I did have. Also, I'm not a teenager or a just out of college kid. We have done extensive work to getting business ready. I said we have been getting ready for months. But still I was portrayed as irresposible and jumping in. Just not accurate at all. I am not claiming to being close to ready. I just wanted some equipment advice. And I am thankful for the good stuff. Daves last post was what I was looking for as well as several others. I have a lot of stuff to consider and I'm going to. I'm sorry if you felt disrespected, but I'm not sorry for feeling misrepresented.

Glad I was of at least some help Amanda - we all started somewhere, and while we do chide each other a bit, there's no particular pecking order or anything like that. There's a lot to learn here, all different sorts of weddings (I still would like to just once do an Indian one, although I'll probably regret it, i just love the color and traditions), various styles and techniques, and we all make some mistakes and get confused and come here for help when needed.

Chris runs a tight ship, no hating allowed, and if we get too "spirited" on certain topics of contention, the "conversation" is put on notice and then locked down if it gets out of hand. It's not like most of the rest of the Internet where flaming is a sport. Sometimes we get a little sarcastic or silly, but it's pretty much family safe and once you catch the vibe, hopefully you'll be just one of "the crew", and you'll find what answers you need.

Many topics have already been "covered" ad nauseam, so you might want to play with the search function a bit, but don't be afraid to ask questions. While some of us might nibble at times, no one here bites, except when discussing copyright (that's a slugfest, so don't ask about THAT topic <wink>!), and then we all have a virtual drink of choice and toast our differences after Chris comes along and slaps us if needed.

I think what you mistook for negativity was a simple realism - Wedding Video shooting isn't for everybody, it's sometimes a tough gig, and it's usually not because of camera inadequacies or failures. "One shot" events are exactly that - if you've been behind the mixing board, you know what that means - you've got exactly ONE shot at the event as it unfolds, you've got to be thinking three steps ahead of everything (guitar solo!!). And however carefully everything was planned out, it usually goes completely off track at least somewhere during the day...

Whatever equipment you decide is right for your shooting style, you learn it inside and out and it's not even on the radar when you're "on the job", you just show up, set your gear, take your cues and camera moves, capture everything as best as possible, pack it up and take it home and check the "dailies". Keep the good footage, chuck the bad and hope there's more good than bad, but not so much it won't fit on the DVD...

There's a reason my kit has shrunk and doesn't have too much fancy stuff - and also a reason I went HD and tapeless early on... I don't want too much to drag along or keep track of, and I want to dump the footage and be in edit ASAP, so I go by the "travel as light as practically possible" philosophy. I also want to fiddle with as little as possible, I'll gladly let my camera run auto when I know it's got the shot right, intervening only as needed. But then again I shoot multicam with 4 small cams rolling... and I'm 100% certain that I'm adding a couple HDSLR's into the mix ASAP (I WILL get my wife to shoot video, dang it!). I've been planning that addition for a couple years, and think I'm finally ready to take the jump... it can be difficult making equipment choices!

Amanda, you wrote recently "I knew I was stepping into your world and said in my post that people likke (sic) you hate people like me."

I'm not going to describe that as paranoia because you'll probably react negatively but honestly, it categorically is not true.

If by "big boys" (a term you don't define) you mean people with a lot of experience, I think it would not be too sweeping a statement to say that in this well-ordered and polite forum you'll find that the more experience people have, the more ready they are to share it with people aspiring to come into the business. There may be exceptions but I think it's generally true throughout the forum, not just in Weddings and Events.

But that's not all. It's equally important to consider the advice and tales of people with less experience because often their problems will be ones you'll share.

Finally, I think you're probably asking questions that are impossible to answer. I've just changed from Z1s to EX1Rs. I can tell you why I made the change but it certainly doesn't mean that you should or shouldn't buy either model. Equally, I have no cogent reasons why you shouldn't buy a specific Panasonic model that suits Chris very well. I'll endorse what Dave patiently said, buy what suits you, your purse, your physique, your eye for design, even what suits the length (ie the reach) of your fingers, the best.

Good luck.

Hi, Amanda..........
 

Gonna take a different tack, as it seems this thread took a serious swerve into the scenery for reasons I still can't work out.

So, how about some serious, no BS, advice from someone who started from scratch, no help, no nothing, but an in depth experience of stills?

Oh, and BTW, yep I'm a male, chauvanist (don't think the missus would throw that one in), big mouthed (oh, yeah!), pig (oh, she would most definately throw that one in!). So be warned, this could be toxic.

Get a camera, make your own mind up, but get one.

Every opinion here is just that, an opinion, so make your own mind up and go for it.

THEN, go shoot.

You need to make at least five (yep, 5) 3 minute features on video, with audio, correct lighting, story, the whole works.

They MUST have a story, beginning, middle and end.

Sit down with your husband and analyse every single second of each video.

Where did you screw up? Where did you get it right?

They must make sense, be watchable on a reasonable wide screen telly and be audible.

You got 15 minutes of screen time under your belt?

Now, make a 15 minute one.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to make a 15 minute video?

The first time it's like pulling teeth, believe me, but you MUST do it.

A wedding video will run for what, 60 minutes?

See my point?

Find out what you don't know, don't have, woulld like to have because you can see it will make you money, what you don't need 'cos it won't, but just plain shoot and watch.

It's amazing what you will teach yourself.

Ask the right questions here and you will get Gold, ask the wrong ones and you will get total BS.

(I hasten to add that I do not for one minute think anyone here has gone into BS mode, and if you believe that......)

Regards,


CS

PS:

Bugger, I forgot this in the CV intro - arrogant bastard, yeah that rings a bell.

Pretty well makes me your average male anywhere on the planet then?

Nope, I'm nothing like the "average" male, as there isn't any such creature, just like there isn't any such thing as the "average" female.

Lady, you ain't average! Go for it!

OK I TRUCE!!!! I really did come here with excitement about talking with the big boys, yes the pros, and trying to get some perspective outside of my months of reading, youtubing, web-surfing and all the rest of the ings that I did. I was serious when I said I took notes with paper and pencil. Maybe my questions need to be a little more specific and appropriately placed in the right areas of this forum. I appreciate all of the good advice. I could cry when I watch clips likes Travis'. Thinking how long it will take to get to that level, if ever, is mind boggling. But I'm gonna try like hell. I'm ok with being the freshman. And I'm ok that I have a lot to learn. And I'm ok with being a girl and getting my feathers ruffled. I'm good. So, just give me my little pms moment. I have bigger fish to fry. I've been asked to video a piano recital in April. There are no real expectations other than just getting it. So, maybe we can start over and let me see if you might have some recital advice. This is just a little project for a little recital at a little church. Might be a nice little first project. Thanx again for all your help.

OK, well, truce accepted........
 

though I wasn't actually part of the war, think Switzerland, and you'll be cool.

It's not like this isn't hard enough without that running rampant round a shoot.

Recital.

Off camera mikes, two.

Cabled or wireless, first preferable, second if you must, but better than "on cam" by a country mile.

Lights, possibly just three, if you can scrape them up.

Check out the venue well before WITH camera. Check light levels, espacially at the same time/ light level expected at the time of the event.

Check acoustics, sound systems, feeds, availability of shooting spaces.

In short, leave nostone unturned before you front up for the gig.

Oh, Amanda, one very small thing:

No one here is, would or will belittle you because you're female, black, green, male, Martian, gay, unemployed, Rupert Murdoch (choke), un gay, a Ninja turtle or anything else.

If you feel so belittled by any post, click on the triangular button to the left of every post box and complain.

Tho' if your Rupert...........


CS

Hi Amanda,

Regarding the piano recital advice. It's probably worth starting a new topic so people won't wade through 49 posts, and it is a distinctly separate topic.

And while Chris gives you some great advice, you may not have lights, and mics. Even if you had a well placed digital recorder of some type, you can capture better audio than with an on-cam mic. It's the sound source distance to the recording device that makes it yucky.

I would also shoot some b-roll before the recital. Like an exterior shot of the church, flowers, stained glass, crowd reaction, etc. that you can cut to in the edit to make the production a little more interesting.

Most importantly (IMHO), keep the camera steady, which usually means a tripod with a good fluid head. And get good, clean audio.

BTW, over 40 responses to your original post in 3 days, I think speaks more to chivalry - however sometimes things get lost in translation. The 'big boys' really are trying to help.

You have already made the best move of your future career - that is, that you found this site early on in the process.

All the best.

OK, little recital should be great practice!


Watch out for backlighting if it's a daytime shoot with windows... or low light if it's a night-time shot - hopefully house lighting will be adequate, usually if there's enough light for an audience, you'll be fine, although you have to watch exposure (or use spotlight mode if the cam has it). Most casual shoots you won't have the luxury of controlling the lighting, but if you do, try to bone up on the basic Key/fill/back/hair light configuration so you can optimize. You didn't mention lighting experience, but if you've got any, it's a big help for some "event" shoots, and if you want to do any interview type footage (maybe a littel extra of the performer or their family?).

Video: Two cams, one set wide for safety/cutaway, locked down on tripod, second either handheld or on monopod for some close ups/tight shots/audience. Strive for slow, steady camera moves, and limit zooms/pans to a minimum - nothing says amateur like crash zooms and whip pans (unless it's cheezy transitions added in post, where your wide cam is your friend if you do need to make quick moves on your "main" camera). Set WB to the best looking image on both cams to ease CC in post. Start the cams simultaneously a bit before the recital starts, do a clap or set off a flash to give you a "sync spike" (clap is better if you also sync your audio recording at the same time). If you are shooting tape, watch out for run time, but hopefully you'll be shooting a flash memory camera and let 'em run. DON'T start and stop recording, you can cut out "dead time" or mistakes in the edit process faster and easier, but you can't replace if you "missed something" and lining up a bunch of short clips increases editing time exponentially (sync'ing is a pain!).

Audio: Elsewhere you'll find the quote that good audio is 70% of good video, and it's true, audio is very important! #1, have a good/decent digital recorder, if you can test placement before the actual performance, try to find the "sweet spot" - you already know from your audio experience what I mean, mic/recorder placement is of course a tricky art not unlike alchemy, but you're a bit ahead of most in that department! If there will be a "house" sound system, try to get a recording of the performance on CD (most systems have that I find). DO NOT count on it for anything, but it's audio source #2, the ambient on cam mics will provide a third/fouth source, but not ideal.

If there's a practice and you're available, don't be afraid to be there for a "dry run" so you've got more confidence for the live shoot.

Amanda, glad to help but, like everything else here it's just my opinion.

My guess is that although you're approaching this as a video job, the pianist will be at least as concerned about the sound as the pictures, perhaps more so.

My personal recommendation would be to hire or borrow two decent large condenser microphones which will do better with the high SPL and complex harmonics of the piano than most other mics. If you can record these on separate channels the player would probably appreciate being able to balance the two in post..

Recording musical instruments is a subject in its own right so read everything you can about mic placement and test, test, test.

Finally do plenty of close up cutaways (B roll) but I'm sure you've thought of that.

Good luck

Hi Amanda, a piano recital would be a very good project to start with. I should mention that I do not do weddings so my perspective is perhaps a little different than others in this section of the forum. My main focus for paying jobs is indie feature films/docs, commercials & corporate gigs, live event productions (plays, recitals, concerts, etc.). I do quite a few recitals right now.

A few things to consider for the audio is that churches are generally not the greatest acoustically. You'll have to place your mics fairly close to the piano to avoid also picking up the echo. To gain experience I would purchase or better yet rent a small digital recorder such as those made by Zoom or a number of other companies, and a decent outboard mic. I've got a Sony PCM-D50 that I use without an external mic since it's usually used to record front of house sounds to fill in and mix with my mics that are closely placed to the talent (singer or instrument). The thing to consider for this is you will have to sync the audio with the video in post production. Not a hard thing to do and may be good practice.

Though sound is a VERY large part of any video you create, for this project I wouldn't suggest obsessing over it. It may even be a good idea to find a local sound guy or girl who would be willing to help record it for you. That will let you concentrate on the video side and may even give you a chance to check out their practices. For video, you've gotten some good suggestions already. One locked down which will be your master or establishing shot. That's the shot that will give the audience a quick perspective of the staging and can cut to that when you need to get from one shot to the other and can't find any other good cut to go to.

For piano performances I like to get close up shots of the performers hands, feet, facial expressions, inside of the piano seeing the hammer action. When shooting think about how you will be cutting between shots. One rule to consider is that you don't want to cut between similarly framed shots. Something has to be different. Either the size or angle or both or you'll have a really unsettling cut. Another shot that almost always looks good for a piano performance (if it's a grand piano) is shooting from the end through the lid so that the performer is framed by the lid, piano body and lid prop. Of course your shot selection will depend on where you are allowed to go. Another tip for most live performances, crew almost always wears either black or very dark clothing. This way they are not noticed by other cameras or the audience.

As for cameras, I'd suggest you look into renting two of the same cameras. That way you won't get too frustrated in post production trying to match them. Renting is a great way to try out different equipment and if you do make anything from this project you will most likely be able to cover the rental cost. Create a check list to go through on both cameras during your setup so that you are sure each one is set up the same. You'd be surprised how many starting camera ops blow something as simple as making sure the shutter speed is set correctly or that they've got the gain set correctly.

I'm going to through out two concepts that you may already be aware of but if not, do some quick searching on Google as they are two of the basic shooting "rules", the rule of thirds and the 180 degree rule. If you don't already know what they are look them up and follow them for your first few projects. Like all rules, there are exceptions but in general these two rules are pretty much followed.

Lighting wise, for this first project I wouldn't worry too much. Lighting is important but you also need to learn how to work with what you've got and since this will be a first venture for you shooting a project, follow the KISS rule. Lighting is an art and professional gaffers take years to develop their craft just like great production sound and camera ops. The only way to really learn about lighting is to work with it. And during a project is not the time to do it. The best way to learn about lighting techniques is to do test shots.

In case you're looking for a little point of reference or encouragement I've attached a copy of a blog entry (I'm attaching the PDF because it hasn't been posted yet). You might find it somewhat relevant to the situation you're in. It's about my journey into this crazy but fun world.

-Garrett

Amanda, There are probably a few brides in your area that are not getting a video because they can't afford it. Do theirs for free or real cheap. You get experience and the bride gets something on video that she would never have had anyway. Win=Win situation.

Mike.

Cameras: Anything that has good low light abilities (indoors can be a problem for light), manual (professional) controls and preferably shoots HD. Ergonomics can be an issue as well, so keep in mind you may need a shoulder mount for the cam etc depending on whether you are hand held mostly or on a tripod.

Tripods: Fluid head. Though no sub $2000 tripod head is a true fluid head. The friction/fluid heads are sufficient though for the weight class for most hand held format cameras. (I use a $200 Chinese made one).

Monopods can be useful if you need to move around a lot but need more stability than hand held. Keep in mind not to twist the monopod. They have little rotational stability.

Sound: Can not stress enough how important it is to have clear, intelligible sound! Use a shotgun on the cam and a lav (lavalier or "lapel" mic) on the groom. Cheapest way (for now) to do this is use a portable recorder and a small lav. While not the "pro" level, there are some decent $100 recorders out there. If you go that route, try and get one that at least has a built in limiter. Built in cmaera mics are _not_ adequate enough for professional use.

Whatever camera you get, practice! Make sure you know what is and isn't exposed or in focus. Hand held pro cameras tend to have crappy viewfinders/lcd screens.

Get to know the settings. Two operators with the exact same camera and you can have gigantic differences in looks (exposure and focus being equal) just based on how the camera is set up. Scene files(or equiv), frame rate, shutter speed etc.


For Mac based editing you are pretty much limited to FCP, Premiere or AVID. It's to bad Edius doesn't have a port for Mac as that software tends to have the most bang for the buck. There are plenty of basic online tutorials for whichever NLE you end up using.

Good luck and try not to get to daunted my the copious amount of information out there and feel free to ask questions!

Back in 1993 when I was first starting out, that's exactly what I did.
I had *zero* experience shooting weddings. Starting with a co-worker's
daughter's wedding, I shot, edited and delivered five separate jobs for free...
even the final VHS finished tapes were out of my own pocket. It was a great
way to jump in and learn without gambling anybody's money but my own.

Chris, thanks for supporting my response. I had some negativity earlier in this thread. Here you are 18 years later! haha

Doing it for free is much better than doing it real cheap.

Even if you charge $50, in their mind you got paid. And since you got paid they may have expectations. It's your problem to ask for the money your job is worth and theirs to get what they want as long as they paid you.
I was talking with a just married couple once and they were so mad that their photographer screwed up their wedding pictures and that it was a huge mistake that they hired her.
It turned out she was a cousin just starting out so I assumed they got it for free and said "well at least you got it for free right?" and their answer with one voice was "Noooo, we paid her... she charged us 100 euros and we got approximately 250 pictures..." "but that's how much the paper costs, she didn't make any money, she actually did it for free..." I said, "Yes but we paid her what she asked" was the answer.

Also if yo do it reall cheap you are actualy setting up your price range because in a small town it's really easy to find out how much the other couple paid.

Really? Are you sure? Have you tried any, or done any recent research?

Have you tried any of the Sachtler FSB range, or the Vinten Vision Blue? Both cost around half of $2000, including legs. And pretty fluid. And certainly a lot more fluid than the $200 Chinese effort.

Your statement implies that there are no useful options under $2k, and that Amanda (and anyone else haplessly browsing along here) will assume there's no point going for anything other that a $200 piece of crud.

I don't think that his statement implies anything like that. Maybe the offers you mentioned have true fluid heads but he didn't say that the friction heads are not useful and that there is no point for anything other than the Chinese tripod.
It's amazing how people interpret words.

Spiros,

First of all, I'm not trying to pick a fight with the wedding guys, I'm not experienced in that area and am not trying to tell anyone off. If equipment works for you, then that's all that matters.

My interpretation of the post is just that, an interpretation - yours will be different, as will everyone else's. I may be wrong, you may be wrong, who knows, but I believe my interpretation is no less valid than anyone else. Maybe I came over a bit strong, for which I apologise for - sorry, Denny, I did not been to be abrasive.

Regarding this: "No sub $2000 tripod is a true fluid head":
- You can now get very good heads at the $1000 level, and lower. Vinten and Sachtler have really good models in that price range, with "proper" fluid heads. This is mainly driven by the DSLR market, who up until now have had no way to get a quality tripod that copes with lower payloads.

I clearly do not know which Chinese tripod Denny is using. I have used tripods that cost $50, $200, $500, $1000, $2000, made in all sorts of places - China, Korea (I think), Germany and England. Someone once said that an expert was someone who has made all the mistakes - I may not be an expert yet, but I've made enough mistakes to feel I can comment occasionally.

I would be very surprised if a $200 tripod could come close to a $1000 tripod in performance. It may suffice, and it may be just what you need - who knows, it's all up to the individual to decide.

But I would rather that any newcomer heard an alternative view, that there were options available in the price range.

I'll get me coat and crawl back off to the tripods forum now...

Hi Mike

Don't feel bad!! Plenty of us would LIKE a $2K tripod!! But it's not business sense to spend $40K on gear when your business is only going to turnover $20K!!

I I was doing commercial shoots then I could justify a $2K tripod. I just do budget weddings so my tripods are pretty cheap (yes, around the $200 mark) Actually they perform remarkably well (Weifeng with 75mm bowls) and even after a year the action is silky smooth!! Made in Taiwan to be exact.

Amanda here is basically testing the waters in her area so she could get by with a cheaper tripod for now. I have got by with both my Weifeng's for many years and never a jerky shot!!

Chris

Hey Chris -

I guess as a hobbyist, I don't need to justify buying myself expensive presents like a tripod, I can just go out and buy them! <insert smiley>

I work in an office of women. One of the girls here paid 700 bucks for a woman to shoot her wedding in Nov. The lady was a friend of her mother's. When the wedding was over (as in that night!) the lady hands her two digital 8 tapes and says "here ya go kiddo"!!! She didn't even put the raw footage on DVD....NOTHING!!! Soooo, Jackie hears through the grapevine that I am getting started and begs me to take these tapes and do something with them. I tell her that I am just getting started and she's fine with it being a first editing project and says she will pay me $500 just to give her something ANYTHING. I tell her it is going to be a while because I have this huge learning curve and still don't even have editing software, just a brand new mac. Again, she's fine with it.

Then, a friend of mine who owns a resort in Utah asks if I will come there to shoot an informational dvd/commercial type deal for his biz and says he is willing to pay 5K!!!! I tell him the same thing that I don't even have all equipment yet, plus learning curve, yadda yadda. He says he doesn't care, just do it when I feel comfy doing it, but if I can do it by April that would be great.

THEN, my old piano instructor gets wind that I am getting started and asks if I will video recital in April. Same conversation....again!!! And again...she says no problem, just want the basics anyway.

THEN THEN THEN....friend/coworker from old work calls and says she has wedding in June .....same conversation...same response.

So, here I am....haven't even picked up a silly camera and I have all the projects in line that my friends are confident that I can pull off. My big fear is the Utah project because it's a lot of money. I'm glad my people have faith, but I'm slightly on the scared side. The utah project will generate enough cash for some really cool equip. I'm nowhere and you guys KNOW that I am NOWHERE close to being ready and so do they but still are holding out for me...gotta love southern loyalty!!! I also have some transfer projects that came in by same means. So, I'm gonna get my feet wet there too. All together I have like five projects with nothing even bought yet. All of that just because so and so told so and so that I was moving into the world of video. So, without advertising (wasn't even on the schedule to do for months and months and months anyway) I have already got my hands full. God HELP ME!!! Lol.

I think that it was Chris who put me on to the Weifeng tripods but they are really amazing value. They are of course not quite as good as a $1K or $2K tripod but may be plenty good enough & it does mean that you can afford to have multiple cameras each sitting on a half-way decent tripod. The are sold under other names too. These are branded 'Fancier' Fancier WF-717 Pro Video Camera Tripod with Fluid Head on eBay (end time 07-Feb-11 12:37:00 GMT)

Hi Amanda.

To turn the phrase in your OP: I was once a baby but I don't want to be a midwife :)

I have just loved reading this thread and your enthusiasm, and the great advice given by all the guys here and I wish you your hearts desire.

It's really a story about creating something where something didn't exist - gosh, maybe I should have been a midwife?

I came into this biz in the mid 1970s (I'll leave you to work out my age). I did so because I wanted to work in television. I had a degree in electronics and worked in the electronics manufacturing industry and battled my way through all the dross comments when my peers were becoming typists and secretaries. I was definitely not of this world at that time.

I was fortunate to be awarded a traineeship in one the UK's biggest television networks - and so it began.

Having a dream - an ambition - is fine, but it does need to be backed up with knowledge and skill, ability and (often) good luck. If you have one or more, then off you go. But alll here often learned from mistakes too, so expect to make one or two on your journey.

Hope to see your first video, but remember learn the very basics, learn the knowledge and develop the skill. The information from others here will be a good start.

Good luck :)

So you're the guy in the desert selling hamburgers. ;-) If you build it, they will come.

To quote the title of your thread Amanda "I need help". Yep for sure girl! How about subcontracting the work and becoming second string as someone has already suggested?

@Michael

"If you build it, they will come." Wasn't that about about some dead people who had potential but never really made it? Oh, I see your point here :)

I think Amanda, now's the time to break the alarm glass and seek some hands-on help.

:)

Is Digital 8 still a used format?
How are you going to get that onto any system?
I though I was in the backwoods here in the middle of England but I've not seen or heard of anyone using Digital 8 in a decade, and even then never for shooting weddings for other people.

@Michael

"If you build it, they will come." Wasn't that about about some dead people who had potential but never really made it? Oh, I see your point here :)

Kevin Costner built a baseball field in the middle of his cornfield..the people came. I'm guessing he was the only game in town. Much like Amanda, she's the only game in town and she should capitalize on that.

Yep Michael I know the film (movie) I was just trying to give a different slant - but I think it really was a film (movie) about the reward of missed opportunity.

:)

Edit: Field of Dreams

Amanda, I still have a Digital-8 camera, although I don't shoot with it. It was my first digital camera! ;)

I will transcode to ProRes and put the footage on a drive for you if you'll send me the drive or just order a cheap one off Amazon to send to me. There are others here who know me and will vouch that I won't just be taking a drive from you. :) I can turn it around quickly and send you the drive back with the files. If you need references, lemme know. Others here can probably offer this too, but I didn't see anyone offering - so I'll step up. Email me - bill [at] billvincent dot net and we can work out details - I'll do this for next to nothing for you.

As for your corporate shoot in Utah, I'd be very careful if you haven't really done much of that type of work before. Arrangements and talk may seem informal until you arrive, but the situation you are walking into may be totally different than you had imagined before you left. You'd be much better off talking to one of the local Utah people here and teaming with them on this. David Perry is in Utah, and would at least probably know someone to help you, if not helping you himself. Look him up - davidperryfilms.com.

Two (2) Digital 8 and she get's paid $ 700? I am moving there tonight. =)

I've watched this thread with interest. Funny how we all got started. Not HA HA funny but ironic.

Anyway, Amanda, you've gotten some really great advice and insite here, and God love you for getting the kind of work without even really "being" in the business. As for Bill Vincents offer, I would take him up on it. I think about 100 or more people here would vouch for him. To the best of my knowledge he's never been convicted so he's OK ;-) (Bill you know I'm kidding) You can use your MAC and just use iMovie and iDVD to edit and burn and you would be surprised as to how much you'll pick up just from doing that.

As for the Colorado job, while it sounds great on the surface there is a whole lot of information you'll need before you even buy your tickets out there not to mention equipment. Not just camera(s) and tripod(s) but also audio gear, probably more than just a single lav, and lighting is probably going to be needed.

All of that aside, there is also the fact that you'll need to figure out by talking to the client exactly what they want and how they want to present it. I always ask a corporate client, 1)"What's the message?" 2)"Who is your audience?" and 3) "What is the method of delivery? Is it DVD, webamercial, TV?"

Weddings are quite different than commerical work so perhaps for that you might want to think about "selling" the job to another more experienced person and work with that person as a grip/PA/cameraperson. Especially since the "client" is a friend. You never want to lose a friend over the work.

Just my $.02 worth. I could make it a dollars worth but my post is long enough.
Not matter what you decide, good luck in your venture, keep your eyes open, do you best and most importanly, just get out and do it.

Well, you can't argue with "success"! I too have a Digital 8 camera if you need the footage dumped, two tapes would be around 8G if memory serves, and would probably fit on one of those USB drives you can pick up for around $15, so now you've got two ways to at least get the footage off the tape if you need it! I'm not "Mac proficient", but files are files anymore...

I think we now understand your excitement (yea!), take a deep breath, slow down and ask questions and you'll be just FINE! Or "DON'T PANIC", if that serves you better!

You're right about needing to get a couple cameras, but to be honest, you can shoestring this and step up later (there's a reason some of us have Digital 8 cameras laying around, and it's not because we'd dream of shooting ANYTHING with them). I'm a big fan of squeezing the most out of inexpensive gear, and advocate that, so you could get some cameras in hand on a small portion of your budget and start shooting with them to get learning (ASAP it would appear!). I'd be able to shoot the projects you're talking about with a pair or three Sony CX550's without any worries (well, maybe the $5K job would be a bit iffy, depending on what the storyboard looks like). Wouldn't be "big budget", but would come out just fine. As long as no one commented on my "little" cameras!

Or even pick up an HDSLR, ASAP, since things are going that way and you probably should have one in your "toolkit" anyway. You mentioned some stills experience, any chance you've got some lenses and stuff that might transition to a HDSLR rig?


Teaming up on projects is a good idea, if you don't yet have access to the "helping hands" and classifieds sections of DVi, shoot Chris a PM and see if he can hook you up (it's usually 30 days or so in, once you've been an active member, but you've already gotten your feet wet and probably could benefit from those).

Bill, thank you for the offer. When this came about, I asked around to borrow an old cam. No one had one, but plenty of people had the old sony analog 8mm cams, myself included, but they won't transfer the digital 8. So, in my search for cam hunting I landed yet ANOTHER gig. Scored 24 8mm tapes to transfer!!! So, I went ahead and found an old cam for 150 on ebay that was capable of playing digital tapes as well as the 8mm analogs.....guess what? Seems like everyone is interested in video transfer!!! This is hysterical. But, I appreciate your offer!!!

Michael, thanx for the vote of confidence, yet again!!!! I'm thinking I should call my biz (when it actually becomes one) "Crappy Desert Cheeseburgers". I laugh about it, but it is growing on me. I'd go there instead of the places that use words like....oops better not go there, don't want to step on anyone's toes. But it seems all video biz use calming words. Makes sense, but I like the desert cheeseburger better!!! I'll end up with something that makes you want to vomit in your mouth a little...like all the rest. But it certainly sounds fun.

Noel, you SHOULD move here. I need one of the big boys closer!! It appears I am in for a wild ride!!! My little digital 8 came in so I am going to give it a shot with the transfer. I have been eating, sleeping, dreaming, video. It's awful. It's so much fun.

Here's another "back in the day" story from the 1990's. Just to keep busy, our
studio ran a transfer service, mostly Super 8 film to VHS (and later DVD). After
years and years, I thought we had run through every reel of 16mm, 8mm and
Super 8mm film that could be found between Austin and San Antonio, but it still
kept coming in. To this day, the studio continues to get all manner of transfer
business, from Beta and 3/4" U-matic and Digital 8 and Hi-8 and many other
formats. The cost of entry was relatively low... various decks and projectors were
acquired as we needed them from the yearly auction at SWTSU (now Texas State
University) for next to nothing, and they have paid for themselves many times over.

Indeed, everyone *is* interested in video transfer.

I never said the Chinese head was better. I said that there are no TRUE fluid heads tripods sub $2k range. Though I see that has changed in the last year. True fluid heads used to only be available for heavy cameras and were unusable for light cameras due to heavy springs and dampening.

Most fluid heads are really a friction/fluid (fluid between plates) head. My point was you don't necessarily need to buy a $700 tripod (ie manfrotto 503 and like, which are friction/fluid head tripods) when starting out as there are less expensive options. Heavy use where high durability is a concern then by all means spend more.

Perhaps there are more options, but I would guess that you are looking at at least $1000+ for a quality tripod with a true fluid head. The FSB line with legs used to be around 2K, at least up here. But we always get ripped off in Canada.

For the record I may be using a "piece of crud" tripod for my camera, but I have used just just about every major line of tripods and heads over the last 9 years for large format cameras and down. For the weight class of an HMC150, I have found the "piece of crud" tripod to work quite well. :)

I was only trying to point out "bang for the buck" rather than scare the crap out of new people by shouting that you must spend a fortune to get started out. There is a number of equipment out there that works quite well at a much lower price point than most "pro" gear, though perhaps not suited for long term heavy duty use. One can always upgrade to more durable gear once one has started to get enough business (and thus more use of such equipment) to warrant the expense.

That being said, there is also a lot of true and utter crap out there. Some of which is not so cheap. Buyer beware. Try out gear if you can. And don't always believe the hype.

Thanks for pointing out that the newer, small, cheaper FSB heads are fluid. I may upgrade to such a kit in the future as I balked in the past at spending $700+ for a friction/fluid head tripod combo. Though I still see the FSB's them being at least $950. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/601882-REG/Sachtler_0373_0373_FSB_4_Aluminum_Tripod.html And I am a bit Leary about the FSB4 for anything heavier than a DSLR or HMC40. The FSB 6 looks better but not as inexpensive as BH sell the head alone for $1200.

That is pretty much the tripod/head I am using for my HMC150.