12 min record?
 

Ok, so admittedly, the dslr route is kind of peaking my interest after a few weeks of reading, youtubing, and so on. I would have posted this in the dslr section, but my question is more geared for the event I guess. In my last thread, the 60d seemed to have some edge over lack of overheating and so on. But the panasonic gh2 has the longer record time. I'm just curious as to how you are making sure to get every important piece when you are constrained by a 12 minute record time? Just makes me nervous. Are you finding that this is a pain?

I ran a pair of GH1s out in one focus group / research shoot for one hour and 15 minutes with one un-needed break to switch out half filled cards. We could have run straight through with the 16gb cards we had. Being the first time out at this time length, we switched just to make sure we had room. A 12 minute time limit would have rendered the cams useless in this situation. We would have lost too much, as the cams had to be primarily unattended to not draw the group's attention away from the presentation and toward us and them.

Hi Amanda.

As a video and a video only person. not having come from a stills POV (which DSLR is) I would think you have to find out what you feel comfortable with - only you can do that.

Personally, I think DSLR is a marketing exploitation by manufacturers of STILLS cameras to broaden their market - but, hey, that's just my POV.

The video camcorder is designed to be a video camera recorder. The DSLR is a stills camera "adapted" (with other add-ons) to be a camera to record video.

In the hands of the right person, each can be a great tool. But you have to understand and manage the shortcomings of one to fit the other's market.

The 12 minute issue is just one hurdle. Some have adapted their shooting to handle this. For me, it's a real issue and one which exposes the shortcomings of the DSLR path. And there are others.

:)

Having finally broken down and gotten a SLT-A33, I think I see "some" of the attractiveness of the HDSLR - with the RIGHT lenses, and some practice, you can get very "artistic" results, with nice Depth of focus, and a "feel" that is more comparable to a high end cinema camera. Pretty much exactly what I was expecting to add to the equation.

That said, even with the auto focus of the SLT design, I found myself switching to manual focus rather quickly, to control EXACTLY what I wanted in focus. The amount of lens noise makes the audio less than useful, and making changes to a zoom lens induces more "jiggles" than I'd be willing to accept in a production. I'm sure based upon the heating issues, 12 minute clips would actually be on the long side with the A33... at least with the OIS on.

BUT, with the RIGHT lens(es), you definitely get capabilities that a run of the mill video camera is not going to match.

Is it a "marketing exploitation"? (good description!) Sort of... but it also adds additional "tools" to a professional shooter's kit that you wouldn't otherwise have for anywhere near the price.

While there are definite drawbacks, and I decided rather quickly that I had newfound appreciation for what my small video cameras WILL do, I'm looking forward to further experimentation and using the SLT camera for what if CAN do, with limitations and all. It won't REPLACE a video camera for my shooting style (darn!), but it will add other possibilites when shooting, and looks to take some excellent stills TOO.

Hope that will add a "new user" insight - although I've been planning on the aquisition for some time.

Hi Amanda

I'm also with Claire here..I like to shoot video with a video camera..then again if I want to shoot awesome stills I will go out and buy a Canon 5D II because a video camera isn't designed for stills.

You were asking about the Panasonic cams on your original post and I have just switched to the HMC82's and they are absolutely awesome. (Over in the US it will be the HMC80 as ours are PAL!!)

Well worth a look I would say and it has heaps of great features that the 70's never had!!

Chris

Amanda, what is so important that it last longer than 12 minutes? I can't think of anything at a wedding that lasts more than 12 minutes..unless it's one long Best Man's toast.

I am always running multiple cameras (3 in some cases).. So I never had issues with the 12 minutes time limit. If one camera has to stop recording briefly, the other cameras would cover it from another angle.

If audio is your concerns, most DSLR users use voice recorders to capture the main audio (not directly to the camera). You will need to sync it in post editing though.

Claire,

I have one very expensive video camera gathering dust because of the Canon 5d2. You soon learn the when you shoot with one of these (at least IMHO), that the positives outweigh the negatives.

But that is just my POV...

In Amanda's case, she is starting from scratch, so doesn't have to relearn a work-flow,or re-adapt from shoulder mount cameras, etc.

I happen to run both (traditional & DSLR) when I shoot the wedding ceremony, but after that, the DSLR (5d2) is absolutely my camera of choice.

For more and more of my other work (corporate and real estate), the 5D2 is my go to camera. In fact, my file numbering system just rolled over at 10,000 clips.

I don't think I have ever read a more concise, precise and persuasive exposition of the DSLR situation than Claire's - absolutely spot on.

Michael, I'm sure you write as you find, but for serious documentary video programme makers 12 minutes maximum duration is a joke.

Johannes describes how he uses three DSLR cameras to capture a long contiguous piece. We use three cameras too, not only to capture three angles in a continuous action which can easily last up to an hour but six channels of microphone also. At the reception for example, each camera will record a mic from one of the three principal speakers (and a short gun for ambiance). If I stop a camera to change battery or cards I lose that speaker's mic too. The camera may not even be taking pictures of the speaker whose mic is on that camera.

Finally, DSLR enthusiasts, please don't regard this as a total denunciation of your equipment; it produces beautiful pictures of which I am envious; it just doesn't make documentary programmes which I seem to recall is what Amanda aspires to do.

You're absolutely right Phillip, I don't think DSLR will work as main cameras in events like you explained. My instantaneous reply was because I thought Amanda was referring to wedding type of event.

Hi Michael

Gosh!! You must have short ceremonies over there...I think I have had just one under 12 mins!! The ceremony I did a few weeks ago ran for 43 mins!!! Ok, speeches can be under the Canon limit BUT you never know do you...I have had brides who threaten the speakers if they exceed 6 minutes but once you are on a roll who is counting... my record was 37 minutes!!!! (never want that again either)

For me shooting with a 12 min limit is the same as me saying "I have 12 mins left on my SDHC card so I SHOULD be OK" ... When my speech shoot begins I make sure I have at least a hour or more space...the only way I can see DSLR's working here (assuming Canon) is to run tandem cameras and start the 2nd cam 11 minutes in...seems an awfully cumbersome way to do it though!!! (and expensive!!)

I still agree with both Claire and Philip!! By all means use a DSLR to get creative footage during the photoshoot but a video camera is still my choice for the events.

Chris

C'mon guys, she can always get the Pannasonic GH2 and get over the 12min limit. And still be DSLR.

Why everyone assumes that DSLR means Canon and 12min limit?

Amanda, if you like the DSLR concept just go for the GH2, it's the better video camera among DSLRs and once you find your way around the handling issues of a DSLR you will be fine.

We shoot weddings and we shoot them on nothing but DSLR's. They have their short comings, so do video cameras. For some the shortcoming of ugly video footage isnt an issue, for others it is.

12 minute limit is no where near as major as people think.

The sound capture quality of the DSLR's is poor so you must record into a seperate device like a Zoom. This gives you continuous audio. We film all long parts of the day with multiple cameras so stagger recording, no problem with gaps. Speeches arnt an issue, typically most speakers will go for no more than 10 minutes before you have some clapping. Its at this point we stop and start our next 12 min section.

If your editing style is to give them every last second of the ceremony or speeches in a blow by blow 2 disk epic then DSLrs may not be for you. If your prefer a more creative edit then DSLR's can be a great ally.

Some here will tell you that weddings must use Broadcast quality huge shoulder mount cameras with the biggest fluffy mic you can find. Others will tell you to get the smallest DSLR you can find. Some will tell you to go all primes, some will tell you to go all long lens.

What Im trying to say is dont listen to any one, none of us. We all have our own opinions and those opinions are based on OUR style and OUR tastes. Some will try to put over their argument like its the word of god and you would be a fool to ignore them, But thats just what works for them.

We liked the DSLR look, we could easily fit their limitations into our style and in many ways adapted our style for the better

Chris, I simply click the start/stop button when there is a moment in the ceremony when nothing is happening. During a church ceremony, there are plenty of times where nothing is happening. It's the shorter ceremonies (13-20 minutes) where the 12 minute limit can be difficult. These shorter ceremonies don't have the downtime that a Catholic Mass has. Seriously, does the bride really need to watch in her wedding video, the Readers walk from their pew up to the Alter to do the reading? Do you camcorder videographers really leave this in the final edit??? The vows only last 3 minutes, nothing is happening before the vows. The Priest is directing the bride and groom where to stand. Do you really leave this in the final edit also??

Actually, no. Not really. The GH2 is not a DSLR because it lacks three things
a DSLR must have in order to qualify as a DSLR: a mirror, a penta-prism and
an optical viewfinder.

"SLR" stands for Single Lens Reflex. Single lens as opposed to Twin Lens (TLR,
a popular camera type before the SLR was introduced). The SLR was a design
improvement over the TLR since it replaced the second lens that was required
for the optical viewfinder with a mirror and a penta-prism.

The GH series and similar camera types, since they lack an optical viewfinder,
mirror and penta-prism are therefore not SLRs by any stretch of the imagination.
Instead they are much more accurately described as Electronic Viewfinder -
Interchangeable Lens (EVIL) cameras.

These designations may seem trivial -- but they're not. It's important to know the
rudiments of how these things work, kind of like knowing whether the engine in
your car is gasoline or diesel. The Panasonic GH series cameras are not single-
lens reflex cameras therefore they shouldn't be referred to as such.

Chris Harding....tell me about your HMC80? I've eyeballed that camera for a while now. I'm going to get eaten alive for this, but I want to do some steady cam work and not sure how shoulder mount will work with weight limits and is just as easily balanced?

Everyone else...I'm thinking about trying a little of both just to see what I like. If I go the safe way and have some video cams, it's a sure thing, for the most part that I will get the footage I need. With the DSLR, I can kind of play around and just get used to it and use what what looks good. After a while I will know what I wanna do, so I'm thinking about trying both. Worse case scenerio I end up with cool equipment that is there when I need it.

But, if I go both ways....what about mixing footage? Is there a video cam/dslr combination that is a close match? A canon vid and a canon dslr or panasonic and panasonic? Is it that simple or is it just different all the way around the board? Thanx guys...me

Also, if 12 minute limit is a problem, install magic lantern on a canon to auto resume recording.

Hi Chris,

That was a great explanation. Having shot with SLRs in the 70s and 80 I knew what SLR stood for and I knew that the GH2 and AF100 were not DSLRs, even though people refer to them as such. I have heard Canon shooters refer to the GH2 as EVIL, but I just thought it was because the GH2 does some things better than Canon DSLRs. ;-) Now I know what EVIL really stands for.

It's an interesting acronym, no doubt. I certainly don't want
to give the impression that I carry any bias against the EVIL
concept -- frankly, I think it's a much better way to go than
D-SLR in terms of HD video recording. After all, the three
things that make an SLR what it is (the mirror, the optical
viewfinder and the penta-prism) are completely useless on
a D-SLR when it's in Live View mode recording HD video.

My prediction is that we're about to see a major industry
shift in the HD acquisition market, away from D-SLR toward
EVIL (where it belongs, in my opinion). The Panasonic GH1
and GH2 are simply the first generations of the next big trend
in low-cost, affordable HD acquisition. Frankly I can't wait.

Michael if this really is all the priest is saying then fair enough, but here both the church and civil ceremonies have important contractual elements before the vows. Now, the bride may not want them but to decide before you shoot you're not going to give her the option is setting yourself up for a problem.

I've just finished an edit in which with your technique I would have missed a priceless gem. The groom is English, his bride Nigerian. When asked if she'll take him as her husband, she half turned to him, cheated her head as if appraising the goods, before averring "I will". It raised a huge laugh, gave that part of the ceremony a unique hook and was talked about through the breakfast. If I'd missed it because we weren't running cameras, I would have been a big disappointment to my clients.

Danny's using cameras in sequence which means he's doing at least part of his edit in the cameras - fine as long as he's happy with the technique.

Greg, I'm unfamiliar with Magic Lantern but unless it produces seamless, field-accurate joints like Sony's software then it's a nix. Sorry.

Perhaps the main issue is that I come from a video background. I learned part of this business directing programmes in a gallery, which is the environment three multicammed video cameras give me in weddings. If a discourteous photographer stands in my eyeline then I have a wide or a reaction shot to cut to until he moves. I'll be as mad as was when I saw Taky's recent debacle but I don't have to lose sleep over it.

But Amanda, Danny is right in repeating the core advice you've now been given over three topics - what suits me, or Danny, or Chris, or Greg, or Michael still may not suit you exactly. And now you want to mix footage from single, big chip cameras with material from three smaller chips. Light blue touch paper and stand back.

Why would I have missed this? I would have been recording once they were set in position. I'm talking about the few seconds where the priest is "jockeying" them into their standing position before they recite their vows. Usually, after the priest gives the homily, he takes a few seconds to walk from the lecturn to the center of the aisle. He then positions the bride and groom to the area where they will face each other. You record all this and put it on their master edit? I simply hit the stop/start button at this point..Bam!..a new 12 minutes!

Amanda, every experienced DSLR user on here has used conventional video camera's. I used them for 17 years and now I shoot DSLR for over a year. So I have experience on both sides of the fence. The problem on this forum is that videographers that have never used DSLRs are knocking them. I think taking advice from someone that has never used something can be quite foolish. You can record an hour long Catholic Mass on a 12 minute DSLR. I know, I do it every weekend by myself with no other cameramen. If I was missing anything important, I'd be out of a job.

Michael, there are many things in life I've not tried but which I'm prepared to bet a pound to a penny wouldn't suit me.

Just being able to start up again at a touch of a button isn't a big deal. Many very serious docs have been shot on 16mm film and there you've got 10 mins on each magazine and it takes 10 seconds to change if you're ready to switch mags.

Sorry Brian, have to disagree. Remember World in Action? I do...

By the time it takes to change that mag (assuming you werent on your last mag that is) the 10 seconds on which the story resides could lay in between the ether somewhere.

So, to have 60 minute's worth of recordable media you had to have 6 fully loaded Arri mags in tow. But your able camera assistant could be relied upon to dodge any bullets in the latest war zone to make sure your footage was of the most contemporaneous in nature.

Boy, was Ray Fitzwalter glad when more portable video came along. Then of course with 16mm you had to wait to get your rushes back from the chemists - Humphries Labs - that's assuming there wasn't a hair in the gate or the bath batch wasn't renewed.

It was never as simple as that... believe me...

:)

Hey Chris, I know that technicaly it is not a DSLR, I used the term for simplicity reasons. I don't think Amanda should care if it is a DSLR or an EVIL camera, the main differencies from regular video cameras are the same anyway (handling, shallow DOF, image quality).

Thanks for correcting me though.

That's a shame. You could be missing out on something great but you'd never know.

Brian, as someone who had to change Arri mags whilst sitting on the side of a helicopter at a Navy ship or sub launch, hoping that it wouldn't happen during the change, I know you're right - but if I'd had to shoot weddings on an Arri well I wouldn't be shooting weddings.

Michael, I was including non-video things also.

Oh, I've had that it's about to a happen moment many times. Although you don't really need 1 hour tapes, the 30 min beta tapes are fine for running time. No matter what you're shooting on that most interesting line seems to come just when you're about to run out, but strangely you mostly tend to just catch it, Batteries are another time limiting item.

I think it depends on the nature of the production which works best. However, the point I'm making is that hitting a button to open a new file isn't really a big deal in the scheme of things.

Hi Guys
Wow!! Lively discussion here and I'm impressed that everyone is also being civil about it too (Maybe cos Chris Hurd has joined in???) There will always be differences of opinion and the DSLR (and EVIL) camps will usually be "at war" with the video camp (but in a friendly way, of course. I think it's much like our passionate "Ford vs Holden (GM)" people in Australia!!! To switch vehicle camps here is unheard of and once you are a fan you stay on that side of the fence for life. Surely it's also personal choice?????

Amanda??? I don't want to influence you either but remember I was weaned on shoulder-mount cams and find that I just cannot adjust to tiny beasts when it comes to stability (probably that's why I haven't gravitated to DSLR's!!!) I have just received a HMC80 and I'm pretty happy with it....it has some new extra features which will make life simple for me too. However bear in mind that with the Rode mic and receiver pack added you are carrying over 8lbs of camera!!! Yes, I use it on my stedicam without any issues at all and it works fine (a smaller camera would probably be easier to fly but is not worth the expense for a 10 min photoshoot!! If you watch Tiffen's Stedicam training DVD you will see Jerry running around with close to 40lbs worth of rig ... My total all up weight on the vest is around 15lbs!!!

I am suitably impressed enough with the HMC80 to order a second one this week...but that's me!! A smaller unit might suit you better or even a DSLR. They all do a good job...it's just a matter of what suits you!!

Chris

hey Philip. My point is that people are offering Amanda advice on the 12 minute limit when they don't have experience shooting with a DSLR. To say it can't be done for an hour long church ceremony is incorrect information.

Chris, thank you. I get tickled by everyone here. This is certainly not rocket science and some take it as seriously as so. I haven't made my mind up yet one way or the other. I liked the hmc80 to begin with. Then the 150. Those are the vid cams I'm looking at the most. The dslr is just really exciting and interesting. I'm not sure yet. But keep me posted on your likes and dislikes with the 80.

Amanda didn't initially mention she was going to be using 12 minute dslr for a wedding, and I haven't been here long so forgive me for not knowing her background, but I've been waiting for her to reveal in a later post what she would be using it for.

I've read her later post on this thread and have the impression it must be for covering weddings.

Out of all the responses I've been waiting for someone with experience of covering live sport with a dslr, other than the commercialised games in the US with advertising breaks every 7.5 minutes.

I can't see any use for dslr as a primary camera for recording rugby for instance, with two 40 minute halves, but I'm willing to consider reasoned argument from someone with more experience.

Writing as someone who would rather look at the practicalities of recording any live event, changing or swapping out memory cards every 12 minutes would appear to generate a lot of unnecessary rushing about and clock watching on a multi camera event, with the increased possibility of missing an important moment either because you're concentrating on your equipment rather than what is in front of you, or because you're not recording during such changes.

Even as an amateur I swap batteries and miniDV at half time, even though I have 85 minute HDV tapes, because you only get the one chance of recording a live event.

Just to avoid any confusion, the 12 minutes limit does not mean a memory card can only record 12 minute and then you have to swap to another one.. 12 minutes limit is a continuous recording limit (on Canon), so you can stop/record again anytime within or after the 12 minutes. A 16GB card would take about 45 minutes in total...

To cover a full wedding ceremony/reception without cut.. you need multiple cam obviously and a system that works

Personally, I would definitely choose a video camera that can run 1 hour long without cut than a camera that limits me to 12 mins continuous shot.. but with the benefit in cost, image quality and possibility the DSLR offers, I was willing to take the risk.. and it worked for me so far (and others in the forums).. but it's definitely not for everyone

As much as Amanda receives all the advises in here.. the only ultimate factor that can help her in choosing is to actually try both and find out which suits her style and purpose. Mix and match if you need and don't get restricted

My 2 cents..

Hi Amanda

You have to remember that most of us are guys and we tend to love the technology and talking (and arguing) about what is better. The bottom line is all pro cameras (as well as pro DSLR's) will do the job adequately. It's just that we love to show favour to one manufacturer and camera type!! (same with cars too!!!) Lets face it, bad cameras just wouldn't stay in the market place!!

My HMC80's were upgrades (I still have the 70's actually) so my likes/dislikes are very much pointed towards what the new camera has and hasn't got. Take a look at my posts in the Panasonic AVVCAM forum here to check out likes and dislikes. Then again if you want something a little bigger than a DSLR the HMC40 actually has the same chipset as the 80 but unfortunately no XLR audio and for me (as Philip has said) that's a big disadvantage!!

Chris

Thanks for the heads up, seems the restriction on recording time is either because the camera is in danger of overheating, or more likely that the manufacturer doesn't want you buying this equipment at the expense of the range of dedicated video cameras that they market alongside it.

Either way, the issue of clock watching, in order to put all the cameras back into record mode, would still create a lot of operator movement between fixed cameras.

I don't suppose anyone has considered the possibility of hacking the firmware to remove the 12 minute restriction? Probably too small a client group.

Actualy the 12min rec limit is there thanks to the 4GB limit on the FAT32 file system (and if I remember well the MOV container does not allow automatic creation of a new file after you reach the 4GB limit or something like this).

There is the Magic Lantern firmware/hack for the 550D/T2i that resumes recording automaticaly with 1 sec gap but that's about it.

I am so glad I use a Mac!

Seems odd that the firmware doesn't support automatic file creation, even my relatively inexpensive M-Audio Microtrack 2 saves audio beyond the 2GB .WAV file size limit by automatically creating a new file without a break in recording.

The 12 minute record limit is not due to the 4gb file size but it was Canon's choice in order to save on taxes and duty fees. The HMC150 has a 4gb file size limit as well, but when it reaches the 4gb file, it makes another file seamlessly.

I am so glad I am not on a Mac because with Edius I edit files from the DSLR natively, without transcoding...just saying ;-)

Mark, if this was the case then they would have make it record 29.59 minutes as this is the limit for the tax fees. From what I've read it is the 4GB limit plus the .MOV container that does not allow auto file creation or something like that (don't quote me on that)

The Pannasonic GH2 and the new Sonys that record on AVCHD can create a new file and the GH2 in the European version only records up to 29.59min (the Sonys do that anyway)

Does the HMC150 also record in .MOV just like the Canons or is it AVCHD which allows for auto file creation? Just saying.

BTW I can't see how using or not using a Mac is relevant to the 12min record (that's for Wayne)