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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Totally agree with Adam. I don't think we're arguing - I think we're discussing techniques that can work - and I happily agree manual or auto can both work fine, but equally both can fail miserably. Dance shows are a bugger to predict - there's so many variables. I know for certain, that mine are always so close to the clock as to be unpredictable - very often you just get set up, the bright lights vanish and lots of moody gloomy states appear that wreck everything you planned!
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
I'm in the no auto camp on this one, well really I'm in the full manual camp on just about any shoot except maybe if I came upon an emergency and happened to have my cam with me and just needed to get some news coverage.
As for auto focus, I have never seen an auto focus that works correctly. Especially for stage numbers where the changes in lighting fool the camera's focusing. Most small consumer cameras have sensors that are small enough and irises that don't open up to very wide that their DOF will cover the stage from front to back. So setting your manual focus at mid stage will cover you. Between numbers if the lights go down, it's been my experience that cameras set to autofocus will hunt when the light come back up. If your camera doesn't have full manual controls, the trick is how to fool your camera into giving you the most control over it. And that's a particular function of each camera. As Adam said, there a many ways to do any one task. He has been able to get his cameras to respond how he wants using the built in auto features, and I and apparently Paul, have gotten better results using manual controls. But one thing that is a running theme is the need for preparation and planning. Adam spends time setting up his cameras auto feature controls and limiters so that he can get what he wants. I approach it much more like I do when filming a movie. During test shots and setups we record all camera data so when we actually shoot the scene we have everything planned out. That's essentially what I 'm doing when setting up for a live show. I spend planning and prep time getting all of the settings for the various numbers so that I make the adjustments manually. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Please keep the advise and tips coming, I'm taking it all in!
As an update, I am working on getting a used Sony CX500V or XR500V to use as my main cam with the intention of setting up the CX160 as a backup and returning it when done. Now I am looking for advice on a decent affordable tripod. I already bought a cheap Sony, but as soon as I set it up, I quickly found that it's not going to be sturdy enough - maybe for a fixed cam, but not for panning and tilting. I am now looking at the following Sony tripod which may work well with one of the above mentioned used cams, but I'm still not confident of it sturdiness. Does anyone have any experience with this specific tripod? Any suggestion for a good, sturdy, fluid tripod that might fit into my tight budget? |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
The 80 will be better than the 60, but both are very lightweight. But they're not bad for this price range and they both have the proprietary remote in the handle that you need with the Sony cams, which will help. Don't extend the center column for extra height; they will be a bit more stable this way. If you can keep the legs compacted they will be more stable still.
I have a couple of small Sonys similar to these that I use for sports with my minicams but I keep them close to the ground and don't extend the legs at all. Always extend the thickest portions of the legs first. The heads on these are actually remarkably smooth for the price. There's a whole 'nother Tripod subforum here where there's a great deal of discussion about cheap sturdy tripods; there might be some other good ideas there. Another side note that may make your head spin: Although it is logical to use the lesser camera for the wide shot, you may find that the smaller chip will struggle with the relatively finer detail in the wide shot. We certainly found this to be true. So this is something else you should experiment with during rehearsal. I would take wide and close shots, in auto and manual exposure and focus modes, every way imaginable, and then when you get home play them all directly to a good large HDTV and take copious notes about which does best in each situation. If there is a way to display all the camera data during playback (hang on... checking manuals) you should do this during playback so you can see exactly what you did. [Edit: Yes, both the 160 and 500 series have the DATA CODE > CAMERA DATA function on playback.] |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Brad:
there is a forum here that is devoted to tripods and such. Scanning through those posts may help educate you faster than we can here. Unless somebody has a good fluid head tripod they want to sell or loan Brad? A CX500 or XR 500 sounds like the best choice for you main cam. I believe that, unlike the 550 and 700 models , the "500"models (and the new 560) only have a viewscreen (no viewfinder). Some people really want a viewfinder and some would only use the viewscreen, anyway, and could care less. Personal preference. Garret, Kyle and Paul: I think we are getting off topic here in talking about manual operation. There have been plenty of other threads where folks have debated the merits and demerits of full manual and full auto for a variety of cameras including EX1, XHA1, NX5, etc. Those discussions are academic for working with a CX160 and XR/CX500 as Brad will be. These cameras are tiny. They are ergonomically unsuitable for full manual operation even if they were capable of it. Which they are not. I also want to draw a distinction between a manual focus and manual focusING. The first is something done before the show starts, and was part of the recommendations above. Both Adam and I have recommended this. Set a fixed focus with maximum depth of field. Leave it there. That avoids focus hunting created by lighting, intervening dancers, blackouts, patterned backdrops, etc. Manual focusING --- constantly adjusting focus as you shoot --- would be an exercise in frustration with these little cams I have to ask if you ever used any of the CX cams? If your frame of reference is older model small cameras, such as the Sony HC1-9/AU1 line or the Canon HV20/30/40 line, I think you will be surprised at how good the CX cams are. As for color differences between the cameras, Brad is doing two things that largely obviate the problem. Number one, he is using similar cameras with matching settings. Number two, Brad will be placing them so that they get entirely different angles of view which tends to mask color differences, anyway. If there are problems, they will be minor and, if they bother him, they can be fixed with minor tweaking in editing. He is not shooting for PBS or the BBC, here, either. The video only needs to be better than what the parents could do for themselves and better than the what the previous sets of videographers did. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
My original intention has always been to only use a single cam but I'm also really nervous about something going wrong and losing some (or all) of the footage. Since I am considering a "better" camera, I though that I could possibly still use the "lesser" cam for backup purposes only before returning it to the store. I would prefer to use all the shots from one cam because I'm not so confident in my editing skills with multiple shots and I'm not going to have an abundance of free time for editing either. A majority of my shots with the "better" cam will probably also be wide with some occasional close-ups.
I did just find out too that the rehearsal next Thursay will not have any stage lighting and not all the performances will be rehearsed. I was told that we may be able to turn on some stage lighting after the rehearsal is over, but that not going to help a whole lot. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
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Years ago when I was shooting Baseball with a VX2000, the AF was dead solid and without fail locked razor tight ... on the fence behind the outfielders. Nothing I did could shake it from its relentless grip on that fence. As we moved to other cams, including FX1s, 7s and 1000s, as well as HC3s, 7s and 9s, and HD1000s and MC2000s and my beloved crop of Z5s, it became scary how well they did, especially with fast moving sports like soccer (that's Football to you, Paul). The Z5s are positively frightening... how does it know what I want to focus on? There must be some kind of brain control mind-reading chip in there. Plus it can virtually see in the dark. But I digress. Thirty-five years ago, when I first learned how to do all of this on film, there was no Auto anything. You had to do everything manually. You wore a light meter around your neck. Even if your camera had an internal light meter, you still had to set the iris and shutter manually for each shot by lining up the needles. (Gain? What's that?) When Auto functions began to creep in they sucked so you still had to do everything manually. As they became better, you still did everything manually because, come on, no machine could ever be as smart as a person. Then you had to go manual because only rookies did things with auto; Pros Used Manual. But now my ego is no longer involved. I only care about how much good footage I get. With my gear I know my odds are better when I don't try to outsmart the cam. But Garret, Paul and the others are smarter than I am and have figured out how to get better footage on manual. But until you've seen those little boxes appear around people's faces and watched the focus and exposure snap into exact precision, you can't begin to appreciate how brilliant these little devices have become. Know your gear. Prepare. And Practice. And Prepare some more. |
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I think we all have to be careful about turning a simple project into an Elephant. I know I am certainly guilty of this. Sorry about that. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Did not see Adam's post before I replied. All good advice. I would have suggested that your primary camera be the one with the larger viewscreen, but I suspect that both of these cams have 3 inch view screens.
If you do not use a locked down, fixed frame approach, editing with two cams is pretty easy. (With five hours of show, the hard part is disk storage and feeding it all into the computer.) All you have to do for each segment is find the flash and line up the two tracks in your editor. Follow your primary camera --- you can scroll through with a mouse --- and find the parts of the main camera track that you want to cut out. Make the same cuts on the second track and drop that bit over the part you do not like in you main cam's shot. It is quick and simple. Only complicated when you go to more cameras. For a bit better timing, look at the wave-form display for the audio track and make the cuts where you see a sharp line (usually that will be a musical beat). As for turning on the stage lighting after the rehearsals, you want to do that. This will tell you quickly whether on not you are going to have any low-light issues with your cams. Actually, this may be good news. If they were going to do much with the lighting, they would be having tech rehearsals with the lighting crew or the guy who is programing the computer that controls the setup. |
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In this case, the studio director has specifically asked that I capture most of the performance wide and occasionally zoom in on the "younger" performers and during award recognitions. I believe someone has already mentioned something similar to this in this thread that is becoming rather lengthy (sorry I didn't go back to quote who this was). I'm going have a lot of re-reading to do as I get closer to actually shooting! |
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Brad: two more simple point about using two cameras together rather than having one strictly for backup..
First, even if you shoot wide with both cameras, having two angles can provide some visual relief. Viewers are conditioned to expect to see multiple angles, and it is something most parents cannot readily do for themselves. Second, when you have small groups of dancers, or duos and soloists, it is nice to be able frame the dancer. If you guess wrong about a move and the dancer(s) move out of frame or suddenly jump high, you've got the second cam's wide frame to cover until you have caught up with the dancer(s). It may seem intimidatingly complicated, but you will actually find this pretty easy once you've started. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Just be careful with your zooms. Nothing looks more amateurish than overuse of zooms. Usually you should just do a straight cut between wide and close, which is why you'd want more than one cam.
I always teach my kid shooters (my shooters are all kids): You are not a fireman putting out a fire -- no waving the cam around wildly trying to find something interesting. Always have a destination in mind when you pan or zoom. When you find your shot, stay there. There are two ways to zoom: quickly, to get to the next shot, or slowly and smoothly for effect. The former is never seen in the final show; the latter can be. Same for pans. No shots less than 30 seconds. Ever. Unless someone's head explodes onstage. You are shooting this for parents, and parents of parents. They have never heard of MTV. I know we're getting into stylistic issues here, but always remember your audience. Jay's point about visual relief is an extremely sophisticated one that people in the live performance world frequently just don't understand. When we view something live, our brains act as editors and switchers and we zoom and pan in our brains. You can experiment with this next time you see a live show -- your peripheral vision becomes less evident to you, but it's still there and you can see it if you concentrate on it. But merely taking a wide shot and viewing it on TV, this no longer happens -- it's like you are viewing a bank security cam. Using multiple cams is necessary to emulate the live experience, which is the opposite of what live theatre people think -- they think that a fixed shot by a camera is the same as you sitting in one seat for the whole show, which you obviously do. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
You've chosen a remarkably difficult project for your first one. We've covered the focus, exposure and sound elements, but as just explained - you have to cope with needing closeups, and wide angle shots. With dance, and especially with dance you've never seen before, with just a single camera, you'll need to also be aware of what is happening outside the frame in the viewfinder. You'll perhaps be concentrating on a soloist, and not notice the stage is filling up with new dancers , who you don't spot until they move downstage and blot out the image, meaning a hasty zoom out, which always looks cack. So for single camera dance, you need to consider the viewfinder and use the other eye to watch out for action out of the frame. It's a very difficult skill to develop. You'll also need to practice diagonal movements - pans and tilts from corner to corner, sometimes with a zoom at the same time. You have to consider if you wish to keep the dancers framed in a consistent manner, so you zoom in as they go up stage, and out as they travel downstage - but do it slowly and sympathetically. If I were you, I'd try to find a dance class somewhere near you where they might let you practice during a class?
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
All true and all the more reason to have a second cam set full stage from a different angle.
You may think of it as a back-up or safety net (which it certainly can be), but the audience for the DVD sees it all as part of the show you are making for them. They will think all of your cuts are intentional and will appreciate the changing views.They will not know or care whether you made the cut intentionally or if instead you are covering up a mistake or a zoom or a wobbly pan or whatever. (The term of art for this is a "cut-away" shot.) Even with a basic video editor like Adobe Premiere Elements or Vegas Studio, this"two track" editing is so easy to do that I think there is no reason not to do it. If the dance school/studio wants its own private version with no closer and no change in views, just burn them their own dvd from the second camera's footage. And, for what you've planned, you won't need to do a lot of close shots. Mostly, just enough to frame the dancers. (Everything changes with small kids but that is true generally as well as here.) Think about it this way: with the camera framed wide enough to hold a a large group of dancers or wide enough to encompass the whole range of a dancer's movement, a soloist or duo or trio are going to look awfully small and alone in all that space. Bringing the frame in a bit closer is much more interesting to watch. Plus, when a dancer flubs a move, you can always to cut to the wide view where it usually looks a lot less serious. Having that second camera track available is great stress reducer, especially for as long a performance session as you are facing. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
A couple points about the smaller Sony cameras from a 5xx series shooter - they have a surprising amount of lattitude, which helps a lot with exposure - you mainly run into focus trouble when there's just "nothing" to focus on, be it black or nearly black screen, that's when the camera will go on the hunt for "anything", and likely not be where you want it when lights come back up... it will also likely re-lock fairly quickly if in auto. Better though to set the focus distance and leave it for the wide camera.
I'm generally with Adam in relying on the auto intelligence of the camera, they aren't perfect, but they are pretty darn good, and will be better than someone just learning and trying to use the small fiddly controls on a handycam. As Adam noted, you still have to watch out for situations where the camera will pick out an object in the foreground (OR background), and decide THAT is what you wanted to focus on, rather than your actual subject. Nothings "perfect"! Framing: Having a wide/safety shot gives you the full experience shot - the tighter shots are for smaller groups or soloists who will appear dwarfed if left in a "wide" frame. BUT, as duly noted, you don't want pans and zooms all over your footage, so one cam is wide and steady, you point and frame the other while trying to track the action... if the tripod head is not the greatest, if you whip pan or crash zoom, it goes in the bit bucket while the "safety" covers. You're the only one who has to cringe! The fixed cam can be lashed to a post or rail if needed, just has to stay locked down, sometimes you may need to adjust framing a tad with zoom, avoid it if you can... It does sound as though the lighting won't be nearly as difficult as some of us have experienced, and you've gotten lots of good advice! Just remember to remain calm, have a water bottle handy, and on a five hour shoot, a snack... wear comfy shoes, and don't "double punch" the record buttons! |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
For framing with the intention of a one camera shoot I use the follow general guidelines. If there are 5 or less dancers on stage and they are not spread out very far, I leave about 1 to 1 1/2 person nose room on either side. I follow the group using as smooth a pan as possible. If someone goes out of frame don't worry and don't do a whip pan to try to catch up with them. Just keep panning to catch up with them or if you have a good controller slowly zoom out a bit pull them back into frame.
Larger group of kids usually have dances that are not as complex and involve as many formation changes. They tend to be more of a line-em up and have them all do the same techniques. So I shoot most of those dances framing the entire group and once or twice during the number I zoom in to about three of them in the frame and do a pan over the group so that each dancer get's some face time. This seems to satisfy those parents that want to see a close up of little johnny but also doesn't show any favoritism to one dancer or another. As far as thinking in terms of a two camera edit. A basic rule is you don't want to have a jump cut. In other words cutting between two cameras that have roughly the same framing and angle. It creates a very jarring affect on your audience. -Garrett Side note to Adam, the EX3 and EX1/R are really great cameras. The 1/2" sensor helps in low light situations and the resolving power of even the stock lens and sensor is really incredible. The focusing is an issue for a couple of reasons. I does a decent job of auto focusing but becuase the image is very sharp from the cameras and that makes something that is out of focus much more noticeable. HD is already a killer for critical focus but coupled with rapidly changing lighting environments, dark uniform backdrops that have no edges for the focusing to rely on make thing difficult for any camera. I've found that having a follow focus is a great investment and I use it more on live stage shoots than I thought I would. |
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I just purchased a used Sony HDR-XR500V. Let's hope it arrives in good working condition early next week to give myself some time to familiarize myself with it. I feel much less nervous now knowing I will have something a little better than the CX160 to work with. You guys played a big role in my decision to make this purchase! Thanks!
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Thanks. Don't forget to check back in and let us know how things go.
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Regarding my previous comment on -not using auto- for recitals due to dramatic lighting: That was based on my experience when we first started shooting them with a 2GL1s, an XL1s, and a VX2000. At the time, we thought it would be safer to use the auto settings due to all the dramatic lighting, but what ended up happening more often than not was massive overexposure. When we started controlling the iris manually it really really improved the picture quality dramatically.
Today's cameras may very well have much better auto settings the 5-10 years ago. I have not really used any auto stuff on my NX5 yet. Tomorrow night is the dress rehearsal for the one I'm filming Sat and Sun. When I go set up tomorrow night, I may very well turn it on auto and see what happens! One thing for sure, with a 3+ hour recital, I'll have plenty of chances to try stuff out tomorrow night. This will be my first time using the NX5U on such a long form event... total of about 10 hours film time. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Kyle --
My experience with the NX5 in theatrical settings is the reverse of my experience with with the CX cams. Manual modes are definitely preferrable. In particular, I've found the NX5's auto focus in problematic in theater settings -- slow to react and not always in sharp focus. I also use an FX1000 and have found that, unlike the NX5, it does pretty well in mostly auto mode in a stage shoot. This parallels Adam's experience with his Z5 cams (pro division version of the FX1000). Since the NX5 is derived from the Z5/FX1000 platform, I am mystified that the NX5's auto modes seem comparatively sloppy in theatrical settings, but they are. Ron Evans has also observed the same thing and has posted about it in the NX5 forum. Even weirder, it seems to be only theater lighting and stages (and extreme low light at wedding receptions) where I run into these problems. In other shooting situations, auto modes have been good. I'll be interested in what you find from using your NX5 at the dress rehearsal. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Hmm, that is fascinating and surprising. I too would have thought the Z5 and NX5 would behave much like twins. In other reading I was surprised to also see that the NX5 lacks a few features -- like Shot Transition, which I always regarded as a toy but which I now use quite frequently during concerts for the slow creeping zoom you can't get any other way.
I bought my Z5s about a week before they announced the NX5. I knew the NX was coming, but I needed the cams for a show. At first I was irritated that I hadn't waited and bought the newer, "better" cam. But now I'm glad I bought what and when I did; I love these babies beyond words. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Equipment list update! This has come a long way since my initial post.
Main cam to be mainly fixed wide with occasional zooms and pans is a Sony HDR-XR500V mounted on a Sony VCT-80AV Tripod with Remote in Grip (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/540095-REG/Sony_VCT_80AV_VCT_80AV_Tripod_with_Remote.html). Secondary cam to be fixed wide is the Sony HDR-CX160 that I was originally intending to use as my only cam. This one will be on a Sony VCTR640 Light Weight Tripod (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/261907-REG/Sony_VCTR640_VCTR640_Tripod.html). I'm still not sure this tripod will be sturdy enough even for a fixed cam so I may look to borrow something better. Because of the length of the show (5-6 hours), I will be using the AC power adaptors on both cams. The XR500V has a 120gb hard drive so I am good on media storage there. The CX160 has 32gb internal flash memory and I also have a 32gb SDHC Class 10 memory card so I should be good there too. Since the highest image quality on the XR500V is FH, should I use that same image quality on the CX160 or should I go up to FX on that one? If I use FX on the CX160, I could run close to using up my media storage capacity (approx 3 hr per 32gb). I did purchase an external stereo microphone (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/444022-REG/Azden_SMX_10_SMX_10_Stereo_Microphone.html) but I'm not sure if I should use it or just relay on the built in mic on the XR500V. I will be asking for a copy of the actual music being used for the performance, but only intend to use it if really necessary. I know I have been advised to set these cams up at different angles, but I'm not so sure what the best angles would be so I am looking for suggestions on that. I imagine I want the fixed cam to be as close as possible to the stage using minimal zoom. I am hoping to be a on a platform with my main cam (probably just behind the floor seating left or right). |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Overall I like your plan. You're right about the second tripod being flimsy but if you don't pan much or even touch the cam you should be fine. Note that it does not have a remote on the handle so if you even touch the cam for any reason you will get tremendous shake. So don't touch the cam.
I would set the 500 up to cover the full width of the stage, and the 160 to cover the center third or so. I'd set them up right next to each other so you can supervise both without moving. If you cut between them -- as you'd do if some kids just happen to be in the center third of the stage, like with little kids -- then the POV will be sufficiently different that it'll look like you planned it that way. You will never need to zoom or pan. But you could put the cheap cam on the good tripod so you could do so if you needed to. I'd return the mic if possible. It's of no benefit. Your on-board mics will be fine for atmosphere and you will need the booth audio anyway for the actual music -- the add-on mic wouldn't benefit you there anyhow. AC Power adaptors = Good. Always record in the highest quality mode possible unless you have no choice. You can always degrade it later, but you can't make it better. |
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Offhand, there's no reason not to match the 17Mbps rates, although you might get better results using the higer rate for the wide cam, more data=more detail, at least in theory...
You'll have to scope the venue - usually setting up near the "sound booth" is the way to go - there's usually space - problem with this is you don't want to zoom in too much as the aperature will by nature close up a bit... which may or may not be a problem. You don't want to be too far away from a camera if you're operating solo - in case you need to tweak adjustments or someone bumps your pod out of alignment... your angles don't need to be terribly different, your zoomed in framing on the "tracking cam" will be sufficient to give an altered perception. If you have a 5 man crew and all that, sure, put cameras forward stage left and right, a rear wide and tracking cam, and toss in a handheld roaming... but you're talking a 1 man band, know your limitations! You're pretty well set now, be sure your computer will handle the edit/render, and be prepared to make a boatload of dics copies - I did one "friendly job" that was supposed to be "20-30", turned into 120! |
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As far as disc duplication, I understand what you are saying. I'm planning this performance to be a 2-disc set and am estimating 50-60 copies so that's a lot of DVDs. I am considering outsourcing the duplication of the discs to a source such as CD Duplication Services, DVD Duplication Services, CD / DVD Replication, CD / DVD Duplication. This method I won't have to buy the media, worry about printing labels, or extensive use of my not-so-great DVD burner. What sort of price would you guys put on a DVD package like this? I'm planning to produce a double disc set in a standard 2-disc case with the discs labeled and a nice cover in the case. Last year, I bought the video of this same recital at $40. I have heard that some year's had charged as much as $60, but they didn't sell many at that price. I'm thinking about $25 for my production this year becasue being a parent of a performer, I think $40 is too much, and also becasue of the fact this that is my first time doing this and I have no idea how it will turn out. |
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It'll turn out GREAT, you've got the best crew in the biz here for advice! Short of double punching the record button and not getting anything, you'll be ahead of most!
I'd suggest $30-35, - you have to figure that a "store bought DVD" with lesser "stars" than your video will feature is $20... your "content", presuming it's reasonably well captured and edited is of higher "value" <wink>! Don't let any lack of confidence cause you to underprice, if you go to the rehearsals, nail the framing and exposure and framing, and run it though in your head so it's second nature, you'll have a quality result given all the advice here. I'd have no problem asking $40 shooting with your gear, and know I'd deliver a good result that was well worth it. The other factor is the economy, money is tight, so you may want to consider some sort of "pre-pay discount" (maybe make that your $35 "package"), with an option for them to purchase when it's done for $45? You could work with the studio for the "after-market" if it comes out great, if not, you could soft-pedal it. I always found if I gave a "courtesy copy" to whoever was in charge and they show it to the "class", my phone rings... |
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As usual, Dave has nailed it. It will depend on your area but the price ranges make sense. The idea of $35 day of show/$45 later is a good one. The difference needs to be enough to really encourage paying right then and there so you have some working capital up front, even if you are outsourcing the actual duplication.
And don't laugh at the idea of double-punching the record button... we've all done it. Keep your eye on the little red light. You'll do great. |
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Don't forget that if you go in close, you have a very large angle of view to cover, so you will be panning and tilting through a big angle, and working very hard - the cameraman at the rear of the room has a much easier job. So don't go very close in - it's very tough - AND you make focus more tricky too.
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Another pricing aspect to consider is offering a discount on multiple orders. In other words, if they order 3 or more they get a discount. Remember, you are capturing memories so for a lot of people this will be something they keep looking at. It also makes great family gifts for Grandparents and Uncles and Aunts. I always get calls after for order forms or asking how to order videos. Don't forget to make a master for yourself too, saving the artwork for your labels and DVD cover inserts. I've been doing one studio's shows for about 5 years now, they do two shows a year (one winter one spring), and I with each show it never fails that I get a few requests for past shows. this last one a lady's daughter was graduating and this was her last show. She ended up wanting to get a copy of every show her daughter was in.
Like Dave and Adam said, I'm sure you're video will turn out better than you think. And there are a list of things that seem silly that can go wrong. Another one I learned was for mics that are self powered. Remember to turn it on. I usually use phantom powered mics but on a backup cam I was using a Rode Videmic. Got everything set up tested for picture, went through my check list. Didn't have "turn on mic" on the list. All I can say is that recording showed that the mic had zero self noise. While I'm thinking of it. Plug in power on the cams is good but also have a fresh battery in the camera too in case something happens and you lose power to your adapter. -Garrett |
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For a 2 disk set with multiple cameras, I don't think $40 is excessive (if produced well), but $35 is probably a better figure. You're going to have a LOT of editing to do, so that's going to eat up a lot of your time has got to be worth something. I agree with the price discount for multiple orders. Yes ... you'll have a few people get together and place a single order for multiple disks ... but the main thing is that you did in fact sell multiples. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Our recital was a little different. We had 3 separate performances at approx. 1.5 hours each. I started at $25 dollars in the VHS days and then went $30. I had a multiple performances discount, since some were in all three at $50 for 2 and $70 for 3. I actually sold a lot of the 3's. My guess is that $30 to $35 would be good depending on whether you mail them out or not. I mailed mine. The biggest hurdle you might find is the turn around time. Because I was doing this on my off time and we were traveling with the dance team all summer I had an 8 to 10 week delivery. Duplication was usually a week and then I mailed them out as well. The studio decided not to go with me this year after 12 years because they said they got too many complaints about the delivery time. My situation has changed this year, but they didn't bother to ask me they just went with another company. The good thing is that for the first time in 12 years I can actually watch and enjoy my daughter and son dance. Good luck with it all.
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
I actually just finished creating my order form. As it stands at this moment, I am asking $28 for one or $25 for two or more ordered and paid for the day of the recital. Orders after the day of the recital are $33. I am also giving the option of having it mailed at $2.00 shipping and handling.
I know you guys are suggesting a little higher prices, but I don't want people getting scared off knowing I'm not a professional. Without knowing how well this project is going to turn out, I'm worried about charging too much. I feel that if I do deliver a quality product, prices on future projects can be adjusted accordingly without too many complaints. I'm not looking to make much of a profit either - I'm mainly looking to cover my equipment expenses since I'm starting with nothing. I know the editing is going to be a lot of work, especially since I have limited experience in that area too. I think I'm really challenging myself to see what I can really do and hope I'm not getting in over my head. I'm starting to get really nervous now that the recital is less than one week away. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
I just finished filming a choir show from Hell...First major screwup was they never allowed for camera placement, so my normal setup was unavailable, they then stated it was a sold out show so I was forced onto the balcony with only four seats I could call my own, remember I am using 3 cams, so to say it was tight would be an understatement, I could barely fit a tripod in the isle, my 7 " Marshall monotor became a god send...sound was to be provided from the house board and whoever ran it left the first 2 numbers out, I mean the board was not even turned on , I can still use the sound from my Rode mics thankfully ...
Exiting my seat was not an option since my cams and the audience were on either side of my seat.(Thankfully there were no children in my isle, I could just see one tipping my cams over the balcony ledge..Ouch! ) I was basically stuck in my seat till the intermission and then I had to climb over the back of my chair to exit...It was then that I observed that nearly half the auditorium seats were empty down below, and the original area I wanted to set up had no one in or around it at all, so I was a little upset to say the least....Anyway the footage turned out OK even with the placement limitations but its going to require a bit more editing than I would have liked, but I guess it comes with the job...I have another show at the end of the month at the same venue, a meeting and changes will be made for this one for sure..... |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Brad:
A small suggestion for placing the second camera. I believe you said your wife is also attending? If so (or if you have anybody else available to babysit the second camera) my experience is that life will be easier with the second "wide" camera with a really different angle than your main cam. If I were using two cameras and are shooting from, say, the middle of a front balcony, I would place the second cam down on the main floor against the right or left wall. I would put it high enough to have a mainly unobstructed view of the stage and close enough that I do not have to zoom much (or at all) to cover the entire stage. (This gives you easiest depth of field control and avoids most exposure problems.) As long as you have somebody to watch over the camera --- standing next to it when people come in and out between acts --- they should not need to do much of anything with the CX. Maybe check for how much time is left on the SD card and maybe re-aim if the tripod gets bumped. Maybe you will be confined to the ends of a balcony. So, stand on the right with your XR and have your locked-down CX on the left. Am I being clear about having very different angles of view? As I see it, the primary benefits for separating the cameras this way is that it makes editing much easier for you and, with this being your first big project, also increases how professional your finished product will look, and does so with pretty minimal effort. Also, I find every so often that, when shooting dancers from one angle of view, something will be happening in the back or to one side but dancers are in my way from where I stand. A different view avoids that problem of your angle being blocked. (A basic rule of thumb for wedding videos is that, no matter how carefully you position yourself with your main camera, somebody, at some point in the wedding is going to stand up and block your view.) Another important reason for separate views in your first few gigs is that that when you have the cameras close together, and you cut from one to the other, you often wind up with what editors call a "jump cut." You get these when you cut from one similar view to another, and it has an adverse psychological effect on viewers. It certainly is possible to cover some or most of these kinds of jump cuts with a transition, even a simple dissolve. But why put yourself to that work if you do not have to? I will say that I certainly do (sometimes) run two cameras together, although I make a point of having two or three other angles with locked down cams for cut-away shots for when I inevitably get busy, distracted, confused etc and get two bad shots. All of us, both experienced and inexperienced shooters alike, will yield to the temptation to fiddle with the cameras within arm's reach. So, for your first big gig, I recommend having the two cameras apart from each other. If the situation does not permit, so be it. If it does, take advantage of this simple little trick of the trade. As for the opinions on pricing, I think you have gotten good advice and I also think you have properly thought through your pricing for this gig. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Jay-
My thoughts all along have been what you stated about really different angles, but it's not likely that I will have any assistance to monitor even a fixed cam. My wife will indeed be at the recital, but she will be responsible for getting my 5 year old daughter prepped for 4 different performances. The photo in the following link gives an idea of the venue setup. Facility The risers that are behind the floor seats may or may not be there (some years they've used them and others they haven't). Last year's videographer was set up on a platform just behind the left side floor seats and I was thinking that I could probably get the same setup if I wanted. He used two cams right off the same platform at the same angle. I'll have to watch some of his video tonight to see if I can notice what you are talking about with having the cams at the same angle. Do you think if I could get each cam set up at the extreme outside corner behind the floor seats on each side that it would provide the contrasting angles that you are suggesting? I'm not sure of my chances of being able to set either up right against the right or left walls; those isles are pretty narrow and I'd be concerned about something getting jarred. I will have a chance to scope out the venue a little better at Thursday night's dress rehearsal. I'm planning to take and set up both cams for the rehearsal and doing some practice shots. I really wish they'd be using the stage lighting for the rehearsal becasue I'd like to play with some various cam settings and see what works best with the lights. I think I'm going to have to go into the main event of Sunday with a best guess at what settings to use based on recommendations here. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Amazing theater space.
You do not need to monitor the second cam. That is one of the advantages to the CX line. I only suggested having a babysitter if your locked-down camera will be in a traveled area of the theater. Or, if you have concerns about somebody maybe walking off with your unattended camera. (This has not been concern in my rural area, but it could be in other places.) Outside corners of the main floor seating area could work. Alternatively, how much of the balcony wings will be in use for these recitals? You could have your main cam on the platform behind the left side of the floor seating. In the photo, I see a kind of notch at the center aise side of the back left row of seats there -- great place for a platform if you can get it. If you can, and the platform just gets your camera over the audience heads, you might put your second cam in the front of the right balcony wing, back above the right-side doorway seen in the photo. With a CX 160, you would have to zoom in a little bit to fully frame the stage but probably not enough to adversely affect low light situations. In the photo, it is hard to tell of the balcony wings go all the way up close to the stage (what I would call "opera house style") or if the balcony wings only wrap about halfway to the stage (what I would call "movie house style"). For a movie house style room, I would put the CX 160 on the right front corner of the balcony wing. I've being doing that for years in several of our local venues and used that "elevated locked-down cam" to make the "single cam no zooms" view for the dance' schools private copy of the performance. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
1 Attachment(s)
Boy, I don't know...
Where are the electrical outlets? Where can you, in a practical sense, actually set up without obstructing the view of others? Everyone wants to sit "front row center." That is the ideal perspective of your video. Remember, the seats off to the sides in any theatre are always the cheapest seats because they provide the poorest views. Remember, different "angles" really mean different "perspectives." Your two cams can be standing in the same actual position but if one is tight and the other is wide, they have two very different angles. Conversely they could be on opposite sides of a seating area -- say at the right and left of the center section of the second seating area in the picture of the theatre you've attached -- but if they both have the same field of view, like the width of the proscenium, they are essentially the same angle and won't offer the visual variety you need. To be honest with you, if you're a one-man band, I'd really recommend what I suggested earlier. Set them both up in the same place, one wide and one tight, with the better cam set wide, using the tight one to pan and zoom if you want, on the better tripod, only panning and zooming when necessary. Near an outlet. In the center. Maybe in that center aisle in the balcony. Someone will knock/tip over/steal your unattended cam. Or it will stop recording because someone sneezes. Or something else will happen if you're not there. Like it will explode. Believe it or not, there's a regular poster here who does these with one camera only because he shoots HD and delivers in SD. He does all his cropping and zooming in post. I'm not suggesting that I would ever do this or that you should do this, only that a minimalist approach is possible and he reports that his clients are happy. Below is how we place our cams in our theatre. Note that if we have the same framing on cams 1 and 4, it would be virtually the same shot, so 1 is always very wide and 4 is always medium or close. But 2 and 3 can be zoomed/framed similarly since their placements are so different. 1 is our IdiotCam(tm) and it is the one I operate for safety. It is always locked full wide, full stage. If everything else is screwed up -- and it sometimes is -- we always have this. Unless I have screwed up. And I have. |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
As Adam says, with a single operator, you don't want the cameras TOO far out of reach, stuff happens. Haven't had one explode YET <VBG>, but sometimes cams will turn off for no apparent reason... better to be close, just resist the urge to adjust too much!
I'd also second a closer to "center" position, preferably with A/C and audio feed (where's the mixer/audio desk?). You typically get the "best" view and audio from the "center" in most venues, don't let someone stick you offsides because "that's what's left". YOU are responsible for capturing the video for the ENTIRE audience, pick your "seat"!!! You also need a platform high enough to get you over any heads, people stand and walk around, you don't want to have them blocking (why I use 6'+ tall tripods). IMO if the zoom/framing is different enough, you shouldn't have the issue of "jump cuts", but you'll have to watch it in post to make sure your framing is different enough to add a different "perspective". |
Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
Believe it or not, I actually own and have used this device:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/552742-REG/Manfrotto_131DDB_131DDB_Tripod_Accessory_Arm.html to mount two cams on one tripod so I could have one locked down wide while I used the other up close when I was down one shooter for a show. Is it a sickness? Oh yeah. Somebody please help me. |
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