Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I do not necessarily disagree with Adam and Dave, but my thinking on two widely spaced cameras with different angles of view is that: (a) this will be Brad's first try at this, so it is important to try to keep this simple enough to work reasonably well; (b) placing cameras on opposite sides of the room (if he can do that) with, better yet, one camera high to one side in the balcony and the other low and sort of centered, is the easiest way for him to get differing views; and (c) Brad will probably be framing more tightly with the cam he has than the wide view of the other camera, so there will be differences in view almost as a matter of course.

In Adam's drawing, with the positioning of cameras ## 1 and 4, I think that there is enough space between them that you would not get the sense of a jump zoom when cutting between them provided you have one camera always framed tighter than the other. The difficulty I see for Brad is that he may not always be able to do that.

Adam and Dave are quite correct that a significant framing difference can work for having the cameras next to each other. As long as the framing difference is large enough, you avoid the "jump" effect when cutting between the two views. Personally, however, I had to learn a sense of the difference from experience and still do not always get it right. Since I also work with at least four cameras, I have at least two other very different views to fall back on when (as happens) I do not get the framing difference large enough. Brad does not yet have this experience and is working with only two cameras. My thinking is that "doubling up" from the same location could make the experience more stressful than it needs to be.

Plus, for those times when there are a lot of kids on the stage -- or when you have a cheerleader parent standing up in your camera's line of sight to cheer a child (something I've noticed is happening more often) --- having a different angle may allow capture of things for which there might not otherwise have been clear line of sight from the location where you are standing.

Dave mentions the odd incident where a CX cam may shut down. It is pretty rare, but I have had a couple of them. (Most recently, during a school Christmas concert, a parent in the front row of the bleachers had set her Sony handycam on low tripod in front of her and was running the cam with the camera remote which happened to be aimed right in line with a CX cam that I had hidden under the grand piano at the front of the performance area.) Still, if you can have somebody sitting near the camera, you can can get allerted quickly if something goes wrong. They just need to look over once in a while to see if the red tally light is on. You may even be able to spot the front or rear one on the CX from where you stand with the XR.

By the way, some venues and dance groups may insist that you shut off the little red tally lamp --- the tiny red leds that signal recording is running. On the CX and XR cams it is called the "rec lamp" and is under the camera's tools menu on the touchscreen. Some people think tally lamps are annoying but, if the recital is anything like the ones here, there will be plenty of parents holding up cell phones and other camera devices with illuminated viewscreens and nobody will notice or care about the sub-millimeter sized dot on the front of your cams. (Usually, places that have rules about tally lights came up with those rules when tally lights were significantly larger and much more annoying.)

Another thing to point out -- regardless of whether Brad has both cams in the same or different locations --- is that Brad will be shooting in HD but delivering on DVD. Adam noted that there is a shooter here who works with a single camera and does this. It works equally well (if not better) with two cams. This gives some room in editing to pull framing tighter when you needs to. The after-the-fact artificial zoom in editing on an HD timeline won't be noticeable when the finished video is down-rezzed to SD in the DVD encode. (Okay, it will be noticeable when you zoom-in too much. Judgment is required.)

Again, as Adam and Dave point out, there may be considerations which make it desirable or necessary to have the cameras within arm's reach, equipment security being one of them.

One of the benefits of going to the rehearsal is that Brad will be able to experiment with different positionings to see how things work.

Adam makes a good point about knowing where the power outlets are. Unless Brad has invested in NPFV100 batteries (which will run a CX cam for about 6 hours), he may need to run an extension cord to get power to the cameras. It is always a good idea to tape cords down so people don't catch a cord while walking through to and from their seats. Venues hereabouts have been unenthusiastic about the use of gaffer's tape and duct tape, but I've had good luck with 2" wide blue masking tape. It is visible enough for walkers to see but not so garish as to be distracting and it comes up without residue on floors and carpets.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

One option to consider is that there is a menu setting to shut off the remote sensor function as well (preventing a "stray" IR signal shutting the camera off unexpectedly).

Best answer for a clear line of site is to be on a platform, or have a tall tripod, or both - the tripods Brad has dictate finding a platform if at all possible, perhaps in the audio mixing area? Usually the "sound booth" is raised so they have a clear line of sight to help them catch visual cues for the audio mix.

Adam -
Yeah, the gear addiction thing is an illness, worse yet, I've got a fairly decent fabrication capability, so I go build whatever I can't find or modify... I've got a bar I tooled up that originally was set up to have three cameras... I realized it wasn't stable enough for my tastes, and was going to chuck it, then discovered that I could remove the tripod head and there was plenty of room to put the bar between the legs and head.... so now I have two outboard mounting positions with ball heads (usually set the cams on those to cover stage left and right on a wide stage, crossing them so I get an illusion of different angles), fluid head to track in the center, and a Ultrapod II strapped to the upright shaft with another camera on wide, just below the main assembly. Looks scary, but allows for a "one mand band" to catch everything!

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

"One option to consider is that there is a menu setting to shut off the remote sensor function as well (preventing a "stray" IR signal shutting the camera off unexpectedly)."

Of course. I did not think of that until after the Christmas show I mentioned. Another thing to add to Brad's checklist.

Regarding the sound booth: could be an excellent place to put a locked-down full wide camera. Also, if there is an equipment security concern, no problems with folks bumping into a camera or any worry about somebody walking off with it.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I don't believe the CX160 has a remote option; another reason to consider it as the fixed cam.

I personnally like Jay's idea of one cam fixed wide from potentially the right side balcony and the other on the floor just behind the first set of seats. However, I will need to do some experimenting to see if this is possible. I will also need to determine which cam to put in which location based their individual performances (although true performance may be different once the stage lights are one).

When I first agreed to take on this project, I hadn't even considered two cams. My original intention was to shoot the entire performance with the CX160 that I just bought new. Many of you were skeptical as to the capabilities of the CX160 for this type of project and convinced me to get a second cam that you knew would do better. I purchased a used XR500 with the same intentions of shooting the entire performance with one cam, but now having the CX160 as a backup. I hadn't even considered using footage from both cams until you guys started talking about it here.

I really like the idea of possibly using cuts between cams to provide different views, but I'm still skeptical of the abilities of the CX160 in this environment. With that being said, I'd hate to set the CX160 fixed wide and then use the XR500 for closer framing and zooms and pans (or vice versa) and then have the footage from the CX160 not come out so great.

I would like put to the CX160 at a fixed wide location at a significantly different angle than the XR500. However, I want use the XR500 in a manner that would allow me to use all the footage from this one cam if need be. If I do get really good footage from the CX160, that would be great and I would definately use cuts between both cams. I don't want to use the XR500 strictly for closeups only to find out later that the CX160 didn't perform as well as I thought it might and have no good wide shots.

The reason I am bringing all this up is because in the begginning of this thread, most of the advice leaned toward the CX160 not being a suitable cam for this type of production. These latest posts seem to have forgot about those original concerns with the CX160 and have me thinking I really need to catpure and use footage from both cams. Maybe I am misunderstanding or maybe I am just getting more paranoid as the event gets closer.

BTW... I still haven't received the XR500 I bought on ebay yet - let's hope it arrives today! It's yet another reason for my paranoia! :-)

Please keep the advise coming - specifically on how I should be using each of these cams. Thanks!

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Let me try to provide some reassurances.

Some of the concerns about the CX160 came about because lighting conditions were unknown. They seem to be less of a concern than some of us were afraid they could be. Some of the concerns were the result of past bad experience with older model consumer cams and unfamiliarity with the capabilities of the CX line of cameras. Some of the concerns were for doing a more professional kind of job that is possible with a camera as limited and as tiny --- dare I say "teeny" --- as the CX160.

Using the CX with another camera avoids much of the concern and gives you a video that the school and most of the parents could not do for themselves.

Based on what you have figured out and conveyed to us about the shoot, it seems likely that the CX160 can at least give you acceptable video when used as a locked down "b" camera. Running the CX160 at full wide (in my opinion) avoids some of the biggest limitations of that camera. For example, with it on full wide (even using face detection as Dave suggested and spotlight mode), viewers are less likely to notice when some kids are overexposed by variations in the stage lighting. (Now that we have called this to your attention, YOU probably will start noticing things like this.) The CX160 also has such limitations in size and controls that it would be a difficult tool for use as your sole camera when the objective is to capture the recitals on DVDs for sale to the parents. The XR500 cam has enough additional functions to overcome some of the more serious lacks of the CX160, particularly when zoomed in and panning (slowly) from one group of kinds to another (and perhaps differently lit) part of the stage.

When you say "I want to use the XR500 in a manner that would allow me to use all the footage from this one cam if need be" you are saying exactly the right thing for your first multi-cam shoot. That means you try to avoid "snap zooms" and "whip pans." You do not have to limit yourself to 15 or 30 second slow zooms, but you do want to avoid the instant zoom that is all to easy to do with the tiny top button on these cams. (One of the reasons my primary cams are things like the NX5 is that the larger cameras have nice big rings and buttons that my fat fingers can find in the dark and that allow me fine control.)

That Sony tripod & controls will make this far easier for you and thereby make it much more likely you will get a more professional looking video. Even so, you will have a significantly better looking DVD if you can cut away during most zooms and pans.

You will be able to test these things out at the rehearsal. If stuff works at the rehearsal, it will probably work even better for the shows this weekend. If, as seems likely, the rehearsals are done with house lights and minimal stage lights , the stage will probably be dimmer than for the performance. Rehearsal footage could wind up with a greenish cast to it. At this point, I suspect that the biggest concern with stage lighting during performances, in this instance, will be the risk of parts of the stage being overbright. Using the CX cam's spot light setting, and using the XR with a spotlight setting and the AE shift will mitigate much of that. (Of course, with the education you are getting here, you may start noticing all kinds of things that you would not have noticed previously. Careful, that is the road to gear fetishes!)

As for the CX160 not having a hand-held wireless remote (something that my CX550v cams came with), that probably is not a limitation on using it with a tripod controller. The tripod controller uses a wired connection (which is referred to as a "Lan-C" port.) I believe that all of the CX and XR cams have the same D-ring i/o port. As far as I know, that port can can be used for either analog output to a tv (using the analog output cable) or for the the tripod's camera controller when a d-ring Lanc-C cable is plugged into it. I do not know if your Sony tripod comes with the LanC d-ring connector cable or this is something you will need to get separately. I'm not familiar with the tripod and do not know if it would need an adapter cable. Maybe Dave can address this.

I see the point of Adam's suggestion for running the CX160 as your primary cam, but I also think you might have greater peace of mind using the XR cam as the primary one. Peace of mind counts for a lot. Do some experimenting during rehearsal. Try both cameras and see what works best for you.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Jay - I think your last post put me at ease a little. It seems that you are agreeing with my thoughts on how and where to use each cam.

If I receive the XR500 before tomorrow's rehearsal, I'll be able to test out my plan which includes the CX160 fixed on the right side balcony (just far enough back to get a good wide angle on the stage without too much zoom) and the XR500 just behind the floor seats toward the center.

I will have my family sit in the balcony area near the fixed CX160 to make sure it stays recording and that no one dirsturbs it. My wife will be taking care of my daughter throughout the show, but my step-son (14) and sister-in-law (16) will also be there to help keep an eye on it. The ONLY concern I have with the CX160 being up there and me being down on the floor is a media change at some point. Once the 32gb internal memory fills up, I will need to switch over to the 32gb SD card unless the CX160 cam will do the switch automatically (I can't find anything in the documentation that tells me it will do so).

My statement about the CX160 not having a remote was to point out that it shouldn't accidentally get shut down due to a "stray" IR signal. The CX160 does work well with the Sony tripod controller (I tested it out last night). I'm so glad I got the tripod with the controller; it's so much easier to control the zoom from the controller than with the small button on the top of the cam. The controller also has a switch for "slow zoom," but in my opinion the "slow zoom" is TOO slow. My plan is to mount the XR500 on the tripod with controller since the CX160 will be fixed anyway.

I do think the plan I've laid out will give me the best peace of mind (if there is such a thing). Thanks for the reassurances!

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I think there's a bit of confusion about "remote" - there's the WIRELESS remote, triggered with the little "flinker", the IR sensor for that is in the front of the camera, and typically there's a option to turn that IR sensor off, buried deep within the menus... the reason being you don't want a stray IR signal turning the cam off record...

The second "remote" is a WIRED remote, typically a LANC accessed through the "D" shaped A/V port - I believe all the remote tripods CURRENTLY shipping have the A/V plug, older LANC interfaced through a 2.5mm miniplug.

I'd not worry THAT much about the CX160 - think of it as a "monitor", covering your cutaways. I've been experimenting with the Sony P&S (point and shoot!) cameras for this function, similar chip size and "features" (or lack thereof!), and they do just fine, looking quite good in HD, and by the time you go to DVD, shouldn't be a problem.

You want the camera with more controls to be the "manned" camera. Not saying it isn't preferable to be close enough to your second cam to have a look at the screen from time to time (thus operating from a SINGLE location), but if you decide to have the two cams in separate locations... you'll have to set framing, and let 'er roll. Unless you can "visit" the cameras during the event, you just have to set and forget... myself I prefer to be able to at least "check" on a cam if at all possible now and then (if for no other reason than to make sure it's still rolling and "on the mark").

Edit: Just caught your post that you WILL have a second camera "person" (YEA!). Just be sure to instruct that the ONLY concern is to maintain the camera rolling, and framed properly (meaning where you set and lock it!). NO zooming, unless required to tighten up the framing (set to full stage width, but sometimes this isn't always "fixed"!). I think with a second "camera op" you're set! The memory WILL NOT automatically switch media, so instruct your op how to do the changeover. Start with an SD card, go to internal, switch to a second SD card when it's convenient would be my suggestion.

We've all had our experiences with "consumer cam" quality, but the cameras out there now are significantly improved over even a couple years ago - we have HD cell phones now, after all... with a little skill, and some production value, even these little "pocket rockets" can get results that 5 years ago would have knocked most anyone's socks off, and will hold up fine to most viewers today.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

The tripod remote should work with both cams directly just fine.

I think it's time for Brad to stop listening to us and just try this stuff all for himself and see how it comes out. Try the settings we've suggested on both cams (if the XR arrives in time) and play back directly to a good HDTV via HDMI and see how it looks. Only way to know. The only thing he won't be able to tell from the rehearsal, if they don't use the actual stage lights, is how well the SPOTLIGHT and AE SHIFT modes handle the brightness and contrast levels. That's going to be a Hail Mary on the day of show.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

It will not switch over automatically.

To switch, touch Menu --> show others ---> scroll down to "Manage Media" ---> touch media settings ----> Movie Media Set ---> Memory Card. Exit menu.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I got my first good trial with the CX160 last night at my step-son's play. They did Alice in Wonderland Jr. in a high school auditorium setting with stage lights, full dress, etc. I found that overall the CX160 did pretty well. I need to go back and watch the whole thing again because I tried changing a few settings throughout the performance. In the beginning I let the cam run on auto mode with only steady shot turned off. After a while I set scene selection to spot light as they were using a spot light on occasion and I wanted to see if there was any noticeable difference.

I hooked up the cam to my HD TV when I got home and the first thing I noticed is that the faces of anyone wearing light (mainly white) colors were overexposed when zoomed out. Faces of those wearing darker colors were great. If I zoomed in closer on those wearing white, the overexposure was gone and I really got a nice shot. Changing scene selection to spotlight did not seem to show any noticeable improvements.

I'm guessing I am going to run into the same scenario with the recital this weekend. Any thoughts?

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Does "overexposed" mean kind of "washed out" (brighter than you would like but the kid was still more or less recognizable) or does it mean "blown out" (unrecognizable white blur)?

If this was a case of "just brighter than you would like," and you are only using the CX as your second cam, I might just live with it. Maybe adjust the scene a bit in editing with whatever controls your NLE has. With your soon-to-arrive XR cam, you avoid much of this by using the AE shift (-3 for plain stage lights, -4 if there will be a spotlight). Unfortunately, one of the limitations of the CX160 is the lack of AE shift.

If it is a case of "blown out," you could try enabling the "spot meter" function on the CX. While watching the viewscreen, you touch the area that seems blown out. (The 3" hd videwscreen on the CX will give you a pretty good sense of this.) The camera adjusts the exposure for that area. When the "bright" kids move in the frame, follow with a touch. The disadvantage of this method is that each adjustment momentarily bumps the camera. Still, it gives you something like manual exposure control while maintaining a wide depth of field with the manual focus (per the instructions several pages ago.) This is intuitive enough that, if you are using the CX as your fixed cam, you could draft one of the family members to do this while you run the XR.

Another alternative for control, particularly if the CX is being run as the second cam, would be this. Turn on "spot focus" and point/touch to mid stage. (If it is a fixed cam, the mid-stage focus is most likely to have everything in focus with a proper depth of field.) Re-set the manual knob from "focus" to "exposure." Leave the camera set to auto exposure until there is a dance with a lot of white/very light apparel. Press the button to activate control and then ride the exposure knob for that dance, dialing down as needed. Of course, everytime you make an adjustment will bump the camera. If the XR does not arrive in time and you need to use the CX as your primary camera, you could try the combined spot mtr/focus touch screen control for dances with a kids in white costumes.

Am I correct that the controllers on the Sony tripods do not have anything that would control exposure or focus on a CX cams; that they only have controls for start-stop, zoom and still photo?

I haven't used the CX menu setting for face detection setting much, but it has seemed to help on some occasions. Maybe Dave can contribute more on this.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Definitely want to enable face detection, as it will allow the camera to look for proper exposure when it "sees" a face. As Jay noted, "overexposed" may still be tweakable in post with these cameras - they tend to have pretty good lattitude, meaning the chances are the data is there to be tweaked in post, not just "blown out" and gone, like old school film might be. Drop some of the footage into your edit program, and play with it a bit.

The problem comes when the camera is trying to adjust to the entire frame, rather than the faces (thus face detection!). Light costumes/clothing on a dark background will tend to overepose because of the dark background being dominant - that's where riding the exposure or using spot exp/focus "might" be an option. AE shift is the more reliable "fix", but since the 160 lacks that...

I actually looked at a 160 at the big box store yesterday, I think you'll find it more than acceptable in quality, what I could see from a brief hands on was pretty good.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

OK... It's been a long day!

Rehearsal was tonight and I got the XR500 about an hour before it started. It was sent to a wrong zip code and I had to drive out of my way to go pick it up once I found out which post office had it. Then I found out the seller didn't include the AC adapter and both batteries were completely dead. I did manage to get some rehearsal footage from both the CX160 and the XR500 using the AC adapter from the CX160.

First to Dave - I did have face detection turned on at the play last night, but the cam only started recognizing faces when zoomed in quite a bit.

Next, I'm sorry if I am using the term "overexposure" incorrectly. At the the play last night, "washed out" would be the correct description. However, at the rehearsal tonight, "blown out" would be the better description for the footage with the CX160 (many of the performers were completely white from head to toe). The XR500 did pretty good but still had some "washed out" footage. The lights on the stage tonight were bright white overhead lights. No colors or anything for the rehearsal. The footage from the CX160 even showed the pitch-black background as being a bright gray color. So for rehearsal, I had bright white stage lights with a solid black background.

I found that if I turned down the exposure setting manually (on the CX160 it's just a slider bar on the screen with no numbers), I could get some really good images. Are the dB numbers on the screen during playback the exposure settings? If so, I was getting the best shots when it was either at 0 dB or 3 dB. On auto exposure, it was about 13 dB for the same scene. In this lighting situation, turning the exposure down made the background look black and made the performers really stand out nicely against it. If I could only keep this fixed lighting scenario for the recital on Sunday, I'd know exactly how to set these cams for the perfect picture.

Since the CX160 did really poor with the bright lights, I'm considering manually adjusting down the exposure as I think that would still provide the best overall footage even if the lights were a tad dimmer on some performances. I'm going to guess that most will be bright. I will be manning the XR500 myself and I am considering using auto focus (it did well tonight) and using the manual nob to control exposure if need be.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Sounds good to me. Advice is only that. You have to develop judgment for the conditions and you are doing that. Pretty soon, you'll be able to give advice to others.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Sounds about right - I'm not sure where the threshold is on face recognition, sometimes it seems able to pick faces out of a small portion of the frame, other times, not so much... it's definitely better with tighter framing on the talent!

I usually set AE shift -2 to -4, then use the knob for exposure if needed, as you plan - you also might take a look at spot focus/exposure, although it means potentially bumping the camera around with the touchscreen.

You probably are thinking along the right lines with the 160 - set the exposure manually and cross your fingers that the lighting range isn't too radical... As already mentioned, these cameras will ealuate the entire scene, and gain up as much as they "think" they need to get it all exposed "about right" - but in theater lighting with dark backgrounds and brightly lit performers, it's typically WAY too bright. The camera will, as you found, attempt to make the black "grey" to average the scene!

I leave AE shift "on" pretty much ALL the time, but you'll have to manually ride the exposure (manual AE shift if you will!) on that little CX160. Or set to what you hope will be a "happy medium" - another one of those reasons to be close to your cam for adjustments...

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I was using AE shift of -3 on the XR500 and still got the "washed out" effect in many circumstances. I'm not so sure I am comfortable using the MANUAL dial to actually control the exposure as I don't have much experience at all with that. Should I consider dialing down the AE shift a little further to like maybe -4 or -5? Or better yet, I think I can use the MANUAL dial to actually change the AE shift manually. I would feel more comfortable adjusting the shift than the full exposure for a specific scene.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

-4 is usually sufficient for the AE shift.

With family members watching the CX for you, maybe one of them could check the viewscreen at the start of each dance and dial exposure down for those dances where it seems to be needed? They can dial it back up to your baseline setting at the end of the dance. Also, if you can, get the theater to give you a 5 minute light check maybe ½ hour before they start the show. You might find the stage lighting to be better balanced than the house and work lights. I've found most tech people are willing to do this for me.


Oh, and the answer to your previous question about the dB numbers on the viewscreen, those are the numerical measure used to represent the exposure setting. To put a fine point on it, dB is technically a measure of gain, but the CX The "exposure" control on the CX is actually a combination of iris, shutter speed and gain, The camera's processors are programmed to adjust these parameters in varying combinations to give what the engineers thought would be most likely in most cases to produce the best picture.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

My previous answer was based on my experience with older Sony cams such as the VX2000 and TRV900. I just checked this on my CX550v and I am not seeing any dB numbers, so my previous answer may be incorrect.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

OK ... we've watched this thread all the way through, so we've gotta know ... how did it go?

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I would like to thank everyone for all of the advice, support, and encouragement provided here in this forum! Although I haven't yet watched any of the recital footage, I feel pretty confident that this has been a successful endeavor. If it weren't for you guys here, this could have been a disaster!

You were correct from the beginning that the CX160 camera was not suited for this job and I am so glad I took your advice and got the XR500. I did use the CX160 in a fixed wide position form the right side balcony, but I don't think much of its footage is going to be useable because it didn't handle the bright lights very well. The lights (which we were all concerned about) ended up being fixed for the entire show. They had overhead bright white lights with some colored lights pointing to the top of a backdrop.

I will post back again once I start to review what I've captured to give more details on how things came out. I'll probably post a couple samples (of my better shots) so you can have a look. I can't believe how long it takes to download so much data from the camera to the computer. As of this morning, the 40gb file from the XR500 had been transferring for about 8 hours with an estimated 2 hours left. Is this typical for transer time?

Thanks again for all your help. Stay tuned for a new thread by Brad Ridgeway titled "Amateur Recital Video Editing."

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Wow!!! thats not normal, you should have had it moved in less than 40 minutes...Transferring over 2 1/2 hours of footage from each of my canon and sony cams take no more than that....are you using the included software to move the files to your PC...

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Yes, something's definitely wrong there. Post your PC specs so we can start beating you up about that....

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

File transfer via PMB should be approx 1/3 real time, so something's not quite right. I'm going with USB 1.1 instead of 2? Even a "low spec" machine should transfer file relatively quick unless there's a "bottleneck".

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I did use PMB to transfer. The data on the XR500 was approximately 4hr 45min of footage recorded in FH mode which resulted in a single file of approximately 40gb once transferred via PMB. I just realized that I was using the USB ports on the front panel of my desktop which could potentially be slower than the on-board connections at the rear. I still need to transfer 2 files from the CX160 cam tonight, so I'll try using the rear USB ports and see if there's a difference. It should be USB 2.0 on my ASUS M3N78 Pro motherboard.

I also bought a new CPU and plan to install it tonight. I felt that my current processor wouldn't handle the HD editing and rendering. The new CPU is an AMD Phenom II X4 920. It will be replacing an AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+. What other PC specs should I be giving you guys to "beat me up" over? I'll post them on here tonight after I install the new CPU.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Oooohhh.....

Generally speaking, it takes a lot of horsepower to edit HD. Multiple streams of it (i.e. multicam) require even more. A lot depends on what editing software (NLE) you plan to use. Each package has its own requirements. Fast CPUs (Core i7-920 or better), lots of RAM (at least 12GB), lots of fast HDDs (at least 2), are baselines. If you use Premiere, a good particular kind of video card (NVidia CUDA), really helps too. You can get by with less with some software or you can go crazy and spend a fortune -- it's up to you. Premiere happens to hate AMD chips and doesn't play nicely with them or ATI cards, but there are so many variables.

Lots of great subforums here devoted to PC/Mac HW and SW, so we'll probably see you there.

Desktops are better suited to this than laptops overall, but that's not to say that you can't do it on a laptop, only that it's harder and/or more expensive.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Brad:

Were you copying to your system disk? I've tried using PMB with my laptop a couple of times when on the road and found that copying to the system disk can be very slow,

Do you have a lot of free hard drive space on a drive separate from your computer's system drive? Or maybe you can get a 7200 rpm USB 2/3 drive? (A couple of weeks ago, our local Costco has a decent 7200 rpm 2 tb drive for about $100.) You absolutely want to have your video files on a different drive if it is at all financially possible for you to do so.

In addition, with you using an AMD processor, I suggest that you look at tools to convert your AVCHD files to AVI files that will be much easier for you to work with. I asked about the hard drive space because the price of using these kinds of tools is that decompressing from AVCHD format results in files that are about 5 times larger than the highly compressed mp4/h264 originals from the camera. Though the files are larger, they are much, much easier for Premier, Vegas, and such to edit. (Editing AVCHD requires a lot of overhead from the program to translate the files into editable form because the program is basically decompressing on the fly as you go through sections.) That is what you want with an AMD based system.

My preferred tool for this has been Cineform's NeoHD or NeoScene. (These may have been renamed in the last week or so as a result of Cineform's merger with GoPro.) Cineform has downloadable, free, fully functional trial versions that will allow you to convert the files for this project. The files will be usable beyond the 30 days, you just will not be able to do additional (free) conversions after the thirty days runs out. With your AMD system, it might well take overnight to do the conversion, but editing will be much easier for you. Cineform is betting that you will like their product and eventually will buy it. (As I did several years ago.)

There are other AVCHD tools out there, some of them free, and others will doubtless chime on their favorites.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I'll make an observation in regards to hardware - I've always sort of "incrementally upgraded"... a piece here, a piece there... this may not be the "best" approach...

I noticed that when I picked up a laptop that had "decent" specs, but not really quite as good as I would like for video, it handled editing better than I expected, because the ENTIRE machine was "current" - so when I built a Core i7 machine, I went ahead and got EVERYTHING relatively current... I think it makes a diference whether there are "bottlenecks" in "last years" technology at any given stage of the processing - IOW, a "current" 5400RPM drive might outperform a 7200RPM drive that's 3-5 years old, a "slow" motherboard with a fast processor is like putting a V8 in a Pinto...

FWIW, a new Quad processor and a new MB, and you've got a good start, but if your video and HDD subsystems are older... they may choke off the performance significantly. I had a fair amount of grief with editing with my slightly older but "top of the line" video card... picked up a more recent one, and problems went away... smoother playback and overall performance.

SO, I guess what I'm suggesting is to think of a video edit computer as a "system", not just one set of specs for one component and another set of specs for this other component... you need to put together a "balanced" computer, for want of a better description. And how fast a machine is satisfactory will be "balanced" with a) your budget, and b) how much patience you have...

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Brad,

Jay and Dave have given you some good advice there. AVCHD footage sucks to work with either on a Mac or PC. Get a good intermediate codec (Cineform is one of the best) for a couple of reasons. AVC is a highly compressed format created to capture and ultimately deliver content. It is great in that you can squeeze a lot of information into a small amount of memory. But that comes at a cost. The cost is that you are actually throwing away information as you save it. That's how any compression algorithm works. Also imbedded in the saved information for compressed codecs are instructions on how to reconstruct the video. That is why the more highly compressed the files, the more taxing they are on your computer. Working with something like Cineform files actually helps to speed things up.

Also, of greater concern, is the fact that you run the risk of getting more compression artifacts. You'll hear people talk about the pictures "falling apart" when they go to color correct or add FX. Converting the files to an lossless intermediate (or near lossless) intermediate codec will help so that you don't experience that. You'll see those artifacts really noticeably when the stage lights drop and your shooting a near black scene. Those ugly grey blocks are some macroblocking artifacts that are a result of the compressions and reconstruction that's going on

I also use Cineform which just recently, BTW, has gotten to be even a better deal now that they've eliminated NeoHD and only have Neo. It gives you resolution up to 4K and 4:4:4 colorspace for only $299. Sounds like a lot of money but for what you get it's a bargain.

For your computer upgrades, like Dave said, it's really important to think of your entire editing machine instead of individual components. I also build machines so the first thing I do is to make sure all components I spec for a build can be optimally run with each other. There are a lot of peculiar things that happen with some components when they interact too so it's a good idea to make sure whoever is going to do your build knows how all of these components will play with each other. You will be taxing your system so make sure you have a case that's big enough and has enough cooling.

Post some samples of your shoot when you get a chance. Would love to see how things turned out.

-Garrett

PS Jay, if you haven't already done so go upgrade your NeoHD to Neo. It's basically what use to be Neo 4K for free! gotta love those Cineform folks.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

" PS Jay, if you haven't already done so go upgrade your NeoHD to Neo. It's basically what use to be Neo 4K for free! gotta love those Cineform folks."

On my list, but I've been too jammed to get to it. (Editing all weekend and today I'm out of town with a 14 hour day working for lawyers. Where does the time go?)


Brad:
Three votes from us for trying Cineform. Check it out.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Just went o Cineform to download the latest Neo update and found that NeoScene is still available. Much less expensive and will probably take care of what Brad neeeds. But, try the trial (15 days for NeoScene) and see if the conversions do not make editing easier.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

We don't even know what NLE Brad is using/plans to use, do we? All this talk of Cineform may be premature/moot.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

True. I see it was you who mentioned Premiere, not Brad. My error. Cineform conversions do not work in some editing programs. I believe Pinnacle Studio is (or at least used to be) one such example. And, if Brad has Edius, which has its own conversion utility, he would not need Cineform.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Thanks guys for the suggestions. As far as PC upgrades, I'm not going to plan to do any more than what I have unless it becomes necessary. I am crossing my fingers that I can get by with what I have as I am already in over my head financially for this project and I don't even know if I will ever be doing something like this again. I am currently running Windows XP, AMD Phenom II X4 920 processor on an ASUS M3N78 Pro motherboard (video is on-board), 4gb RAM (max for XP), 250gb system drive, 500gb secondary drive (just added and only contains my video files from this recital). Those are the basics. I still can't figure out why my USB transfer is so slow, but that's not a huge issue because I still got the files transferred.

I did watch some of my video from both the XR500 and the CX160 last night and overall I think I have some really good material to work with. I could tell that I was learning as the recital progressed because my pans, zooms, and framing showed much improvement from beginning to end. You guys would probably criticize a lot of my movements, but I think they'll be okay for this project. The footage from the CX160 is also a lot better than I thought it would be, so I should be able to cover up a lot of my mistakes I made with the XR500. The picture quality of the XR500 is really good with only minimal "washed out" faces.

For editing, I already had Vegas Movie Studio 9.0 which I had used minimally for adding markers, transitions, text overlays, sound effects, etc. to a couple small personal projects. I also just installed Vegas Pro 10 as I wasn't sure if the Movie Studio was sufficient for this project. I'm not sure how much editing I really intend to do other than making cuts between cams and adding transitions and text overlays and such. I don't have any experience at all trying to make "corrections" to the video so I will probably just use it as is unless there are simple ways of making improvents.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Vegas software is less of a problem with your computer system than other NLEs would be. Win XP (32 bit, right?) and an AMD processor exact less of penalty with Vegas than with other companies' products such as Adobe CS5 and Avid MC5.

With your system and your past familiarity with Vegas Movie Studio 9, you might find that it will be the easiest and most efficient way for you to tackle your dance project. Your project has two video tracks, the two camera audio tracks and whatever CD/DVD/flashdrive audio tracks you got from the dance people. You mostly will not require much more than "cuts" editing, markers, a few titles and some minimal audio editing. You just sync up your tracks and scrub through to the points where you want to cut from one track to the other.

If playback and editing give you problems (slow, juddery or halting playback), you may want to try out Cineform's NeoScene. It does work with Vegas products. You certainly have the file space on a 500 gb video drive. Also, go to the web page of DVinfo sponsor Videoguys and get their instructions for Win XP Tweaks for Video Editing.

Videoguys Blog - Videoguys' Windows XP Tips & Tricks for Video Editing

Lots of useful stuff there.

A couple of suggestions for workflow and editing. First, with such a long program, I suggest that you divide the work into segments. Most NLEs will tend to bog down in editing AVCHD if you have very long timelines. Better to divide it up into acts or into somewhat arbitrary lengths (say, forty minutes to an hour). When everything is done, pull or copy all your segments into the timelines you will use for your DVDs. Seems like you will have 3 to 4 hours of video so you will have at least two DVDs per set. (Unless you took orders for custom DVDs where each customer orders only the dances he or she wants.) I do not know what you use for encoding and authoring DVDs but, with high-motion-high-contrast dance footage, my rule of thumb is to try to limit DVDs to 1½ hours of video and never more than 2 hours, Put more than that on a disk and it starts looking like old VHS tape with macroblocking and other artifacts.

Second, cut out the spaces between dances except when you have something adorable that a parent will actually want to see again. (By way of example, I just finished editing a 3 hour dance program that reduced down to just over 1½ hours when all the superfluous parts were trimmed away.) On your timeline, leave a space between dances (maybe 10 frames to a second) and put your chapter markers in the middle of that black area. When DVD players pause to switch chapters, they will do it while the screen is black and silent rather than in the middle of playing video and audio. Much more professional looking. Also, apply a fade transition at the beginning and the end of that dance. With the differing camera angles, you can rely on simple cuts for most of your edits.

You said you "installed" Vegas Pro 10. Did you download a trial version or buy it?

If you bought it, the program certainly gives you a lot more capabilities than Vegas Movie Studio while also being somewhat familiar because it builds on the same interface. You will have to spend some time to learn the additional capabilities. Among other things, VPro10 can give you a multi-camera editing display which allows viewing both camera tracks simultaneously and readily switching between the tracks. (This is a bigger deal when you have three or more cameras going.) VPro also has a strong array of tools for tweaking things like shots with washed out faces. I believe that some of these are simple. (Check out the Vegas forum here if you have questions.)

There may be penalties to having these added capabilities. I say "may" because I have never tried VPro10 under XP. I suspect that that the additional capabilities impose a bigger load on the computer than Vegas Movie Studio. That load compounds the heavier processing loads already imposed by having two streams of AVCHD on your timeline. Again, Cineform may help a lot here.

Also, if the program and playback seems sluggish or halting, you can reduce the burden on your system by setting playback resolution down to ½ instead of full. (Can you do that in Vegas Movie Studio?)

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I've don't the fade between dances with silence but for live shows I like to fade in and out between dances and cross fade the audio tracks of the audience clapping and cheering. It makes it feel more like a live production. I usually only leave 2 frames of black between numbers as 10 seems too long for my taste.

If you want to go real fancy you could place lower thirds with the dance title and class/age performing. That always gets people excited. For some reason it makes them view it as more professional. Also, create menus so that they can quickly jump to their child's dance. There's nothing more maddening than having to search through 50 dances to find little Jenny's one number to show the family. It's another one of those things that adds a touch of professionalism to your DVD (and you'd be surprised how many dance DVD's I've seen that don't do this). And if you really want to get them excited, do a credit roll at the end. It's funny how excited people get to see their name roll buy. It makes them feel like stars in a movie. I usually list pretty much how it was in the program with all the thanks, special thanks, dance numbers and each dancer. Run a mash-up of the music that was used during the recital playing in the background and if you've got someone you can get stills from you can have the stills floating by in the background. Again, all things to make your DVD stand out and be more attractive for people to buy. If you do that they'll want to buy your video even if they recorded it themselves.

For the few shows I still do I don't care if other people record too. The people usually buy at least one of my copies because they know they get all of the extra touches that make their kids feel special.

-Garrett

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Thanks Jay and Garrett for the quick advice. I'm getting ready to go on vacation for a week so I'll be doing most of my editing once I get back. I do however want to get a jump start now so this advice helps!

Jay suggested dividing the work and I was already thinking about that. Does that mean I should start by syncing the entire show on one timeline and then cutting out sections and saving them into different projects in Vegas (I will use Pro 10 which is a fully functional version)? The show was basically formatted into 5 sections with a Solo Showcase at the beginning and then what they called scenes A, B, C, and D. Each scene has approximately 12 performances with special awards and recognitions in between every few numbers. Then there was also a finale which would be a good place to run credits (at the end of) as Garrett suggested if I can get all the info I need (there was no program book). I want to keep everything in the same order it was captured so if someone were to watch from beginning to end, it would be just like being at the show. On a past year's DVD, they had pulled all the awards and recognitions out and put them all together in one section of the DVD, but I don't want to do that.

I captured almost exacly 4hr 45min worth of video, but I'm guessing I will be taking out approximately 20-30 minutes of it so that will put me close to 2hr per DVD (I'm hoping to get by with only 2 DVDs). I do intend to put titles and such at the beginning of each performance and I also intend to create menu selections for each dance (using DVD Architect Pro) so I am not sure how much that adds to the content that needs to go onto each DVD.

I am hoping to start syncing everything up on the timeline tonight. Most of my content is going to come from the XR500 with cuts to the CX160 mainly to fix areas where dancers went out of my framing or when the CAM had focusing issues etc. About 1/4 of the way through I realized the AutoFocus was't doing as well as I expected so I switched to manual when I had a good chance. At the beginning, the curtain was closed so I didn't have anything to set the manual focus to and then the show started with fast moving solos. When I do cut between cams, is there a "rule of thumb" for how long a cut should be or how often I should make cuts?

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Sounds like you already have a really solid workflow planned out and Jay and Garret's advice is great; I couldn't really add anything more, especially since I don't know Vegas that well.

Did PMB import everything as one giant 5-hour clip from each cam, so you can sync the two cams just once? Then you could just do that, save as 5 different sequences or timelines or projects, whatever Vegas wants you to do, delete the inapplicable parts for each one and thus have 5 smaller projects to work on. You'd even then empty out that original big project and then re-import the finished sub-projects back into it for your final export, if that makes sense. At least that's how I'd do it, roughly speaking, in Premiere, which is what I use. Vegas may lend itself to a better workflow; Jay would obviously know this.

About when to cut; it really should follow the content. With slow dances you could cut less frequently and use dissolves; faster music would be straight cuts more frequently. Obviously you cut if someone moves out of frame.

I'm learning from the great ideas here too; I've been doing this a while but I always have five seconds of black between dances on my discs; to hear Garrett considers ten frames too long is making me rethink everything.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

Sounds like it went fairly well Brad... which means you'll prolly be doing this again!

Good advice all around, Pro 10 does handle AVCHD better native than earlier versions, so may be workable without transcoding. If you've got several "sets", I'd break the project down into those to simplify sync - unless you left the cameras running all the time, in which case sync the whole thing, THEN break it down if needed by cutting, saving separate .veg files of the subsections, reassemble and render as a final project, OR put the pieces back together in DVD Architect in the final mix - use markers, they will import into DVDA for "chaptering"

You definitely can shorten the typical show by cutting dead time - this makes for a far better final "watch", as you keep up the pacing. Sometimes "video" can even be better than live in that respect! I tend to crossfade or fade video through black, using the audio to cushion the "cut" with longer crossfade.

AS noted, VP10 has multicam, but IIRC Studio would be fine for 2 video/3 audio tracks. The advantage of multicam (I use VAAST Infinicam myself) is that you can see which video is best and cut in near real time. Cuts should be timed to the music if at all possible, you can usually "feel" where they should be, but be careful, with AVCHD you can get some lag and may have to tweak your cuts here and there.

FWIW, I usually sync to the audio peaks, then adjust a little if needed for the time delay you can get in a big hall, so the visual cues match.

Vegas is a very "deep" program, with lots of tweaks available, BUT if your footage is pretty solid as it sounds, you may not need to delve into all the things it can do... unless you really want to.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

I have 3 clips total. One big 5 hour clip from the XR500 and then two 2hr30min clips from the CX160 (had to switch media half way through). So I will need to sync the two smaller clips to the larger clip. I am intending to only use the audio from the XR500 cam as it seems to have come out pretty well. I won't have an additional audio track. I could get the music tracks from the studio, but I don't feel that the extra work is necessary in this case as I got really good sound for the most part from the on cam mic.

Any advice on syncing other than Jay's original advice of using a camera flash which I didn't do?

When cutting between cams, is it okay to ONLY cut to cover up mistakes or should cuts be thrown in often for consistency? The picture quality is much better with the XR500 and I only want to cut to the CX160 if I have to.

Re: Amateur Recital Video Production
 

You can cut any way you want to. If you feel it works best to only cover mistakes, that's fine. I would cut away to cover most pans and zooms but stay close most of the time unless your pans and zooms are very smooth and professional. But go with whatever you think looks the most professional.

Sync using the audio peaks, as Dave said. It's the easiest way. I usually find the first big spike that occurs in both clips (like if the MC comes out and says "Good Evening" you find the "G" on both clips and use that -- it's usually a sharp peak). You'd use the audio from the 160 for sync purposes only but mute it.

There is a software plug-in called Plural Eyes that will do this for you and I believe it works with Vegas.