Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Thanks, Jay.

Whatever camera I choose for my main ("A") cam is the one that will get the audio feed from my recording system and mixer. My lockdown B cam is never used for anything but ambient audio through the standard built-in mic. Even then, it's used at a VERY low level in post just for some added reverb. Of course, picking up a Rode mic in this transition will only enhance that sound since I only use that track for choral shows anyway.

I'm not sure if my model Beachtek adapter has that mic/line switch, but I'll have to pull it out and take a look.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Dave,

You re-evaluation of your equipment needs pretty much sums up what I am facing. I rarely shoot without tripods and if the smaller cams can do an equal job as the larger ones while still allowing some control, that's all I need in my situation. Aside from a good sound input, I've never had the need for interchangeable lenses, shoulder mounting or room for mounting a lot of gear on my cameras.

My audio system is a completely separate entity. I could even use the Zoom to capture that, were it not for the pain of synching in post.

Still, even after 6 years of doing this, I somehow feel that my growth will be limited without having those additions/features at my disposal. ::sigh::

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Dave are you using only CX550s now?

What are the Sony P&S cameras you mentioned?

I'd like to work totally with such lightweight gear if only to save my legs and back, but I fear that I'm too set in my ways with using larger cameras that I'd be too nervous to give over to the little beauties for other than support footage. One of the positive aspects is that I can always carry a CX550 in my pocket and I find that the stabiliser is good enough to allow me to get in close and grab spontaneous shots I couldn't attempt with a bigger one.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Since you have a whole separate audio recording rig and a mixer, and everything you want to use goes through that, I'm not sure what you gain by going for something with XLR inputs. The XA10 and NX70 do give you more manual control on the images, but mgith not give you much more on audio than what you would get with an XLR adapter. (Unless you like shooting surround sound with on-camera mikes.) What I see that the NX70 has that the XA10 does not is basically two things: ruggedness/waterproofing and LPCM audio. That may or may not be worth the $700 price difference between them.

To me, the difference between the specs of the Canon Vixia cams and the Sony CX cams mostly seems to be the amount of built in memory. The Sonys have more. (My experience is that on-board ssd flash drives are a bit quicker with footage transfer than SD cards. Some people find SD cards more convenient to work with, however.) The new Sony's do have 1080/60p, if that matters to you. I think I read that the Canon cams will do 24p and 30p but not 60p.

You mentioned a Rode Videomic as a shotgun to plug into one of the new cams. The Sony CX cams have a small, proprietary shoe on top and I'm not sure if the Rode's mount will fit in it. (There may be a Rode model specifically for the Sony small-cam shoes.) My recollection of the Vixia cams is that they have a normal sized shoe on top. If you get either the XA10 or NX70, I believe each comes with its own detachable shotgun mic.

I'm with Dave on buying cameras in the same line because it makes you editing life a lot easier.

Some months ago, Philip Howells started a provocative thread (in this forum, I believe) about using an array of inexpensive small HD cams in place of the big guns many of use for weddings. He called it a "security cam" approach, and noted that the high resolution would allow digitial zoom and reframing in editing. At some point, I started referring to this as a RAIC (redundant array of inexpensive cameras) and it reflects a part of my shooting style. I've found that I still need a "big gun" for some of what I do, but I often reach for the CX550 for a lot of things.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

George - pair of 550's and a pair of 500's, which I may be selling... I finally upgraded my aging Alpha bodies to ones that shoot video so I can finally do some of those "glamour" SLR shots <wink>! The Alphas don't do long clip times (prone to overheat...), but they provide another image acquision source I'd have anyway.

P&S (point and shoot) refers to the latest little pocket rocket Sony still cameras - TX100V, HX9V and the HX100V - all do 1080 60p video, so you get some pretty nice footage, and they are cheap and small - if you're running dual audio (not too impressed with the audio quality, but what do you expect!?) or other cams, they provide 29 minute record times, and from my experimentation with a WX10 (same CMOS, but only 1080i), they will do almost as well as the CX550's before you turn on low lux (so not bad in bad light!), and overall the image might be a tad softer than the CX's, but seems to be pretty clean and looks good on my 24" monitors and larger screens... Considering prices of P&S cameras with this new sensor start at $220 RETAIL... it's definitley worth a think! Albeit the lower end ones just shoot 1080i, but they are definitely as good as dedicated "video" cameras I shot with just a few short years ago (easily better than the "7" series sony cams)



Rey - the amount of control required really depends a lot on how well the sensors and processors handle "difficult" scenes - that's where the greater lattitude and low light performance of the newer CMOS sensors kicks in - I find just using exposure shift solves about 90% of any "problems" that crop up. Focus can be a pain, but if there are a couple cams, one is likely to have a good lock (or set one to manual).

I've got clamp pods that I can lash to the tripod for secondary cams, and I tooled up a metal bar that allows me to put two ball heads alongside the main pan/tilt head... good for stage shows. It's funny how we evolve similar approaches to the problems of event shoots!

You have to evaluate the budget - the economy is still tight, so big $$ expenditures for nominal or incremental quality increases have to be balanced by whether your market expects it and will pay for it. I'm pretty tempted by the NX70, but in the end it's 3 CX550's, or 1 CX700 and 2 CX560's, or... well, you get the idea.

In my book a couple extra camera angles properly positioned can make the "one man band" look more like a full production crew, so if the cams are "cheap", you just have to work out the process and the edit. Adding a discrete audio souce and multiple video tracks is really easy once you've done it, and you quickly get used to the idea of being able to "cut away" in post to the "best angle"... no sweating how to cover that bad pan/zoom or other glitch!


I still say that the image acquisition device part of the equation is becoming almost inconsequential - you still want to get the best camera(s) you can, but the choices are many, and the prices are lesser! IMO it comes down to the "grip gear" that ensures you get STABLE footage, your instincts as a camera op in "getting the shot", and the skill in the edit bay in taking "good" and making it "genius" (with good gear choices you don't have to "salvage the horrid" nearly as often!)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Dave,

Once again, you bring up a great subject. The economy is horrible right now and our sales (aside from a handful of shows in the past year), have been down across the board. We even declined a few shows this past season because the sales and support just wasn't there after multiple tries previously. Most would say that this isn't the right time to make such an investment in equipment.

My issue is not about "keeping up with the Joneses", but remaining competitive. With six years of use on the VX2100 and four years on the GL2 (It was purchased used off of eBay, so there's no telling how many hours were put on it before that), I have a fear that one of these cameras will simply go down in the middle of a show. If that happens at a time when I can't afford to have it fixed or replaced, I could very well be out of business. I gotta be honest, that thought gives me more anxiety setting up at an event than actually pulling off a good taping. In other words, I view my cams as a weak link right now.

The initial idea was to get a decent camera that also shot SD to use as a third or just as a backup. However, with the shift to HD, it really makes no sense to go that route. Add to that, MiniDV tapes are becoming harder to find and an unnecessary expense with the advent of tapeless acquisition.

So, yeah. It's a very bad time to make such a leap. I'm not even sure my customers will notice a change to HD since we would still be providing our product on DVDs for the foreseeable future, so I can't even pass an additional cost onto them with the local competition ready to pounce at a lower price point.

In the end, it comes down to peace of mind - and even then I'll still have to worry about learning the new cameras and a different editing workflow. I'm still wavering back and forth on what is the best direction for us.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Hi Rey,
Just butting into your conversation there with Dave.

I was in a similar position last year to the one you describe. I have been shooting SD 4:3 up until then and never had any complaint about the work - weddings, small business and stage/dance shows. No one ever asked for HD nor even questioned that it was 4:3. However I felt that eventually I would be asked for HD, or at least widescreen so I had to take the plunge. My experience was at first very rocky adapting to an HD workflow, which still has its wobbly moments but at least the most of that is behind me now and like it or not the future is never going back to DV or 4:3.
However whether the change in technology has gained or retained any work is difficult to say. I have had a few dance schools drop out for reasons similar to yours, can't raise the order level to make it viable. but I have gained a couple of new ones. Business work has more than doubled but that was through previous connections based on old work so it wasn't the technology that brought it in.

I've still never been asked to provide anything other than DVD even though I offer Blu-ray, and never had any wildly excited comments about the picture quality, despite trying to tout for comments when I presented the new work. I just wanted to try and gauge if people who knew my work would notice a difference.

I'm someone who doesn't spend money easily believe me so I always go though mental battles when buying new kit, and there never is a good time to take a risk, but taking risks it what business is all about.

In the end I guess you just have to decide if you want to be a sustainable on-going business, in which case at some point you're going to have to invest some money, or trickle along until things blow out for you; which I hope they never do.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

A couple additions to George's thoughts...

Most of the time you'll still deliver on DVD... but IMO because you start with HD, you can crop and still have better initial image quality - not to mention that if your render settings are well chosen, you simply will get a sharper end result by starting with more data/resolution.

Unless your video is truly dreadful, 99% of people probably won't "notice" - bad WB, focus issues, funky framing... yeah, they "look" bad, but it's still about what people "expect", even if it's not the level of quality YOU expect...

I think this is one of the main reasons I tend to upgrade/update - if *I* can see the difference, I will do the upgrade - the improved lattitude, sharper image, cleaner low light performance, and the results of 60p... such things matter to "me", even if no one else "cares" - I want my output to look as good as possible.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I doubt you could buy a new 4:3 SDTV if you tried... 4:3 displayed on the average widescreen of course looks "wrong" (yeah, so they COULD set there "tee-vee" up "right" for 4:3, like that's ever going to happen...). HD 16:9 will "look" right - it's also WAY better for framing stage shows - less space that goes to waste, and better side to side coverage. Widescreen is here to stay, and as 4:3 TV's "retire" due to age, they will be less and less of a market slice.

Equipment can fail anytime, that's just the way things are - stuff breaks - that's why multiple redundancy is necessary if you're getting paid. Tape is twitchier because of the mechanism, but you still need a backup of some kind, I tend to buy all but the most indestructable gear in pairs... if you're really stressing that your cameras have so much use on them that they are nearing the end of their life... you probably should sell while they still have some value, and save yourself the stress, but remember, ANY camera can fail, and not many will withstand an accidental gravity related incident unharmed...


From a practical economic standpoint "new" gear (bought at retail rather than at a reduced "street price" from a reliable vendor) always will cost the most, and have a pretty steep depreciation curve if you 'had" to sell it. Slightly used, nearly new "toys" can be had with careful buying for 20-40% off "retail" - I've never had a problem buying used, and my balance sheet is happier for it. I keep my eyes out for the "killer" deals and try to snap them up when they present themselves, I can always re-sell at "good" prices if I don't keep my insane deals! After the first year, prices tend to stabilize and go into a slow decline until the gear is nearing the end of its "useful" life, or is sufficiently obsolete that there's little demand for it. Your SD cameras are getting into THAT part of the curve... I've watched prices on "consumer" SD tape cameras absolutely collapse over the last couple years... and some crazy low prices on pro gear that's relatively new, but tape based.

You shouldn't just go blow a wad, and doing what you're doing to evaluate your options is the way to go - buy a piece at a time used once you've identified your "targets", sell off whatever becomes redundant to fund your "next find", and you shouldn't bust your budget. Things like tripods and support gear will last you a while, audio purchases shouldn't be "obsolete" nearly as quickly as cameras, and honestly the "improvement curve" is starting to get pretty flat in the camera domain - you're not going to get drastically "better" images beyond a certain point... there are a lot of economical options that shoot good HD now. Put a couple potential "kits" on paper, and go hunting!


Oh, as George notes, there is a learning curve with HD, you'll have to deal with it EVENTUALLY... the good thing is that lots of people have already done it, so you can study the forums here and save yourself some grief!

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I want to expand on a point that Dave just made about "cropping." Since you have not worked with HD cams before, you would not have realized how handy this is for editing multi-cam shoots to DVD.

What I'm talking about is basically doing some mild digital zooming and reframing with your "b" cams. This is virtually undetectable when shooting HD for DVD. Let's say you have a CX cam on the opposite side of the room from where you are running your main cam and recording your audio. You have the CX set to the full width of the stage to get everybody in the choir. The small Sony cams, as well as the Panasonics and Canon Vixias, not only shoot in widescreen but they also have the equivalent of a 30° wide angle lens, which is far wider than you can get with your VX2100 and GL2 cams. So, at some point in the performance, you get a small group of choir members standing by themsleves for a particular song, say three or four of them. The full wide shot leaves a lot of empty space around them. You can (judiciously) zoom in to a better frame so the group does not look alone and tiny on a large empty stage. (You do this mentally while watching in person, but the mental adjustments work differently when watching later on video.) Or, maybe somebody walks in front of your main camera and you need a closer shot from another angle. Or, maybe somebody in the middle of the choir starts a solo while other folks on stage are block your view or, if you are like me, your drop the ball in zooming in promptly zooming in on the soloist with the main cam. n editing, I can cut to the other camera and pull a bit of zoom-in (actually, in Vegas, I think you crop and enlarge) and get a tighter shot.

This really is not practical with SD video. I find it to be a significant advantage (and stress reliever) in my multi-cam shoots of events, particularly recitals and choir performances.

Now, to add to the response to your question of whether or not one needs HD cams for what you do? I've always tried to spend the least to the most capability I could use --- I mean, I bought a VX2000 and used an XLR adapter rather than buying a PD150, for example --- so I fully understand what you say about economics. Let me add that I have yet to get even an inquiry about Blu-Ray versions of the weddings, events or shows. On the sign-up sheets for the dance recitals I've shot in the last couple of months, none of the hundreds of orders were for a Blu-Ray. My personal take on this was that I "needed" HD when my SD cams started to fail.

What I discovered with the move to HD, however, was that I had more capabilities and flexibility and much better video to work with. Even though I am not producing Blu-ray DVDs for anybody other than myself (I do make archival copies for myself), I find that HD cams make it significantly easier for me to do what I was I was doing with SD cams. By shooting multi-cam, I can offer both a quality and a kind of video that folks around here cannot make for themselves. That is what has turned out to be the business incentive for me. YMMV.

Both George and Dave have mentioned a learning curve to working with HDV. Personally, I have found the change over to be pretty easy except for some audio sync issues with HDV under Adobe CS2 and 3. (Cineform turned out to be an easy solution in my case.) The "curve" was in finding all sorts of new capabilities such as the crop and zoom with b cams. Again, YMMV.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Jay,

Cropping is one thing I never thought about and would definitely use. There have been many instances where my wide cam could/should have been zoomed in closer to a smaller group on a large stage. Most times, I am able to lean from the main cam just long enough to make that adjustment, but there's always that chance of missing a shot or not getting the zoomed shot focused properly in time. Frequently, it's a missed opportunity and I'm stuck with it in editing.

It looks as if I'll be stuck just under the $3k range for camera upgrades. I'm not sure where that will lead me in the next few weeks (the window I have to trade in the old/obtain the new) before more events on the calendar. However, a backlog of about a dozen projects currently in editing will allow plenty of "me" time to mull it over! :)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I've been shooting Choir shows for about 4 years in my local area, did it as a favor for a co-workers choir director, she liked my work so much I have been hired for every gig since..
I started out just using a Canon HG10 since It was all I had at the time, I soon got the video bug fever and purchased a Canon HG21 to go along with my HG10 for multi cam footage shots which later led me to purchase the outstanding Sony AX2000.
My Canons have been giving me issues due to their limitations so I just decided to order the Sony NX5U to go with my 2000 since the price difference was so close and it offers far more adjustments so it's a no brainer for me..
This will allow me to retire the old HG10 which does not cut it anymore...My Canon HG21 still does a very good job as a locked down cam and matches up very well with the sony 2000, so very little color correction is required in post.. So when my NX5 arrives my setup will be the following..

Sony NX5U AVCHD 2-32Gig SDHC Class 6
Sony AX2000 AVCHD 2-32Gig SDHC Class 6
Canon HG21 AVCHD 120Gig HD or 32Gig SDHC

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Okay - final question. I know this has been discuseed many times before, but since I seem to have attracted some folks in this thread whose opinions I truly value, so here goes...

When buying new or used (B&H, Amazon, etc.), do you buy an extended warranty? I have in the past on expensive purchases and NEVER used it. Is it really worth it if you aren't constantly taking your equipment out onto a sandy beach or duct-taped to a skateboard to POV your newest trick?

My cams go from padded hardcase to tripod (covered if they'll be sitting for a while out in the open) and then right back to the padded hardcase....and I dare anyone to touch or breathe on them. :)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I never would. Those warranties are ripoffs, IMO.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I have the extended warranty with accidental coverage from sony on my AX2000 even though I treat it with tender loving care at all times and keep it well protected case wise..I will be purchasing the Accidental extended coverage from sony as well for my NX5U because life can always creep up and bite you in the a** when you least expect it.
It only averages to a little over 25 cents a day which is less than a cup of coffee for the coverage....
I just feel less stressed while on the job.....It can also keep you out of prison for nearly killing the person for knocking over your camera who can barely put one foot in front of the other without a set of instructions......

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

A variety of considerations led me to not purchase the extended warranties for my cameras, but the importance of these considerations vary for different people in different places, Here's what I see as the considerations.

First, how much does it cost and what does it really cover? Read the fine print. Technically, an extended warranty protects against manufacturing defects and parts failures rather than accidents, wear and tear, and things that might be your "fault" (i.e., things like the skateboard accidents and sand in the equipment.). Protection against damage is actually a form of property insurance. Some extended warranties may provide this kind of insurance coverage and some may not. If you have business insurance, it may cover some or all of those things. It may not. If you are on a tight budget and feel you are careful with your cameras, maybe you are comfortable with no coverage or or more limited coverage (say, protection against damage from fire, flooding and theft.) If you need an extended warranty for peace of mind (or to avoid giving a piece of your mind to the manufacturer of a shoddy product), do not rely on what the sales people tell you. Read the thing to find out what it actually covers.

Second, if you use a credit card (and maybe a debit card) for the purchase, your card company may extend the standard warranty by a year or two.

Third, with new technologies coming out so fast, I find myself doubting that I really care about a five year warranty on, say, the less expensive consumer-type cams I own and use for "b" cams (such as CX550s), For example, my first HD cam was a Sony HDR-HC1 that I purchased new. This was a tape-based HDV cam. When intermittent glitches and malfunctions started to show up in the tape mechanism in the fourth year (plus a couple of beatings from tripods getting knocked over, something that the available extended warranties would not have covered if I had purchsed one --- I found that Sony's new (or, rather, what was then new) and tapeless CX550 was so much better a camera for what I do, that I lost interest in repairs or buying a tapeless unit. (It also happens that I did wind up with a a deal on some tapeless recording units so I can still use the HC1 when I have a particularly complicated event to shoot. Tell you what, though: the newer CX550 cams make a noticably better picture so that I have to be judicious about throwing the HC1 into the mix.)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Having sung the praises of the Sony CX550 here I think I should let it be know that I have come across a problem that may be vital to anyone thinking of buying one. I may be alone in this but it is a problem I've not got a cause or solution for. I have posted in another part of the forum in case anyone can shed light on it.

If you are interested I've posted the problem here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/general-...ml#post1662380

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, George. While things are still very much up in the air as to what our future holds, if we are to purchase new cameras, the NX70U and one or two of the CX models seem to the the front runners thus far.

I'll keep up with your thread to see what the verdict to your problem is.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

THIS PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED THANKS TO MICHAEL BRAY'S POST BELOW FOR POINTING ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION

I think it may be a problem with some Sony cams as I found this whilst looking for the answer.

NX5u dropping 4 frames of audio after 30 minutes : Sony NXCAM

and a few others; if you google you'll find I'm not alone.

It's not a huge problem so long as you are aware and make contingencies. In my case the cams weren't started at the exact same time so I was able to bridge the gap with the audio track from one of the others.

I'll wait to see if anyone else has experienced it with these cams.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

This is not a problem with these cams. Sony requires the use of the supplied software (Picture Motion Browser or Content Management Utility depending on camera model) in order to properly "stitch" multiple continuous files together thus eliminating the dropped audio frames.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

All high definition AVCHD camcorders have the same file splitting problem. A simple solution that doesn't require additional software was discussed on this forum in January 2008.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vi...eadache-2.html

After you've got the cameras and burner, adding a free blu-ray disk to a wedding package means 1$ for a blank and pushing a different button in the burning software. Most couples want their marriage and wedding memories to last a lifetime and blu-ray speaks to that future. Therefore, a free blu-ray disk will be appreciated by even the most technologically backward couples, as long as it's properly labeled so they don't think it's a defective DVD.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

A USER MALFUNCTION is not "a problem with the cameras"...

This has been discussed and resolved ad nauseam - AVCHD has a file "break" at roughly 2G, you MUST stitch the files back together PROPERLY, usually via the software the manufacturer INCLUDED, although other options are available.

YOU CANNOT JUST DRAG AND DROP THE FILES!!! If you do, there will be a gap, or even more messy problems with "missing" video or audio.

I guess since there's another wave of people going tapeless, this is popping up AGAIN - it was a "hot topic" when early adopters ran into it, myself included.

PLEASE don't go blaming the cameras for failure to RTFM, though I do understand the frustration - when I first encountered it, I couldn't find anyone who knew much about how these tapeless cams handled long clips... but now there's PLENTY of ACCURATE information on how to "fix" the "problem" that isn't the fault of the cameras!!

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

If you read the thread I have marked this as resolved both here and on the tread where I first raised it.

Before posting I did a search and only found reports of it happening, I could not find a solution or cause, it was only after I posted on this forum that the answer was given and I acknowledged this.

As I mentioned the reason I posted here was because of the glowing enthusiasm I had shown for this camera on this thread and I did not want to influence anyone to buy it if there was indeed a problem with it. I posted here as an advisory.

It is easy to be smug and criticise someone when you know the answer. Try to understand that not everyone starts at the same place you are at.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I have to admit to having given my share of curmudgeonly RTFM responses, but I've noticed lately that the search engine does not seem to be turning up threads as well as it used to. There have been a couple of recent instances when I snapped out a response of "RTFM and do a search" and then did my own search to find threads I knew I had read --- and could not find them for the life of me. So, there I was having already kicked the puppy,

And, just to add to the complexity, it occurs to me that Sony's PMB/CMU programs do not run on Macs. With regard to the script that Eric cited, did anyone figure out how to get that or something similar to run on a Mac? What are Mac users supposed to do? (I don't use Macs so I do not know.)

Edited to add: apparently you can run the script using the Mac's "terminal" function, whatever that may be.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-nxc...questions.html

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

The decision to make AVCHD compatible with Windows 95 by maintaining a complete BDMV structure using the FAT32 filesystem in the camcorder so the video can be burned directly to disk without any further processing is not an engineering decision I would have made. Still, once you figure out how to paste the 2GB chunks back together the workflow isn't that bad.

At retail prices blu-ray players are $80, burners are $100 and media is $1.25 per disk. The day will soon come when high-definition is expected. For me, providing blu-ray now indicates my hope that the marriage will last long into the future.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

George,

Didn't mean to be overly rough (it's been one of those weeks, so if I offended, please accept my apology!), but the other thread title was "Sony CX550 audio glitch at end of file" and here you posted to someone considering the camera... "I think I should let it be know that I have come across a problem that may be vital to anyone thinking of buying one. I may be alone in this but it is a problem I've not got a cause or solution for", pretty much blamed the CAMERA, or at the minimum impled there was something "wrong" with it...

While I understand the frustration upon first encountering the "engineering decision" (well put, Eric!), you don't want to go around "warning" people that "the sky is falling"... when as you've now discovered, the solution is quite simple, even if the "cause" is something that definitely makes you scratch your head! You got "the answer" pretty fast here (if you can't get it on DVi, it doesn't exist!), but didn't even give time for anyone to solve the problem before posting a "warning"... I think that's what struck me?

I will say that when I first encountered this with a CX7 I picked up without software just to check it out (about 4 model years back now!), even Sony support was totally CLUELESS (DVi members often seem to have more detailed and correct info than Sony US I've found! Not to say Sony support isn't excellent generally, just they can't be experts on everything), so I'm not unsympathetic, but the "problem" has been known, reported, and a solution widely recognized for several years now. I know I've responded to at least two threads recently by "new" AVCHD users who hit the snag... I realize if you don't hit the right search terms though, they may not have come up.

I'm sure this is nothing more than a "new user surprise", as the need for external software seems rather DUMB (not a wise engineering or marketing move...), As someone who goes by the creedo "Manuals? We don't need no steeenking manuals", I hate to say it, but some of these new cameras sorta require it... The A33/55 and even the new Sony Point and Shoot have such a huge amount of "features", it's worth the read... and nearly mandatory, much as I hate to say it!

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I had just decided to go with the NX70U. However, just as I was about to pull the trigger, I ran across some reviews of how poorly it handles low light situations. Since my mainstay is choral concerts, plays and recitals, this could be a deal breaker.

Has anyone experienced negative low light performance with this model or read about such?

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Well, there are samples here on DVi of the NX70 vs. the XA10... the NX70 looked pretty good performance wise to me. I have seen a few indications that the CX700 (consumer cam, but similar to the NX) performs a bit worse than the CX550 - but those samples sure looked good to me...

So I'm inclined to suspect that as often happens with "review" sites there may be issues with the "test" methodology used - I saw one or more review sites a couple years ago zoom the Sonys in to match the framing of the competition - which would knock off a stop or two and make the camera "look bad"

There are simply limits to how far into the dark you can go - as I put it you can't expect to take video of a black cat in a dark room at midnight (that's what NIGHTSHOT is for, silly!). The CX550 is pretty well regarded for low noise and good low light, better in low lux mode. The reports posted here have been positive for the CX700, so I don't think you'd be disappointed with the NX70 (check the forum section dedicated to it, you might look and ask there, as those lucky people have their hands on them!!).

Remember too that "stage lighting" and "low light" are different animals, and there are plenty of us here shooting with small Sonys for such events, either as additional angles or as multi-cam setups.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

When a reviewer says that low light performance is "poor," it really helps to know "poor compared to what?" Maybe the reviewer is comparing the NX70 to an EX1 (which has much larger glass and uses three ½" sensors) with or to a DSLR (again with larger glass with a very large sensor and a camera that is probably not suitable for what you want to do).

For me, who uses CX and NX cams for stage events, my initial thought is that there is unnecessary panic over some unspecified reviews. But, then, I have been using the cameras and you have not, so please do not take that thought as mocking or harsh. It is really hard to tell what concerns you without the context.

My events may be different than yours. so let's talk about frames of reference.

First, how low do you think you need to go for stage shoots? Do you want to see the stagehands moving scenery during blackouts and do it without resorting to a nightshot/ir function? That is not quite the "black cat" situation Dave mentioned, but if you need that kind of capability it requires a lot more money for a much bigger camera with much larger sensors.

Second, most of us do not need that capability for dance recitals and choral concerts. We are shooting the performers who have to be lit enough for the audience to see them I've used my CX cams with no problem in shooting, say, a Christmas concert in an old church with the performers lit only by candles and some lights bounced off the ceiling (basically to give enough light for the singers to read their music.) It was too dark for the audience to read their programs. It was too dark to use my older Sony HDRHC1 as an additional B cam. Sony rated the HC1 down to 7 lux and the CX cams are rated to 3 lux. My NX5 is, I believe, rated down to 1.5 lux. The CX and NX will give very usable footage in much dimmer light. That said, I've rarely shot any events where the light was too dim for the HC1.

Also, consider this. When you go down into dim lighting with HD footage, you often see grain (or video twitter) in the darkest shadows. With that Christmas concert footage my CX cams were zoomed in about 1/3 of the way to properly frame the singers, so that were not at widest iris. Still, the CX footage had less noise than my NX footage. The folks who got the DVDs said that the picture was better than what they could see while seated in the room.

Third, have I ever run into a dim lighting situation where I did not get usable footage from my CX cams? Yes. I can think of three extreme situations:

--- A dance recital where one dance was done on a stage lit with a single and very weak black light at the front edge of the stage while the two dancers in white tee-shirts were standing about 20 feet back on a very large stage. I had to set max gain on my NX5 to get usable footage. I might have gotten usable footage from my CX cams but they were fixed cams placed where I could not get to them to zoom them in . (and zooming would diminish the low light capability.)

--- another dance recital where the finale was for the kids to walk up the aisles holding tiny candle-like lights and go up onto stage. Until there we got up to 30 kids on stage, you could not see anything but the tiny pin-pricks of the LED lights. (At the point where we had 30 kids on stage, we were getting enough lights that were sufficiently close together that we could start to see faces.)

---- a wedding reception where the planner decided to make the first dance "romantic" by turning the lights down to the point where the guests could see nothing of the couple but a dim white glow from bride's dress.

I suppose you could say that I "experienced negative low light performance" in these extreme situations. Are these the kind of low light situations which would make you want to avoid an NX70?

I rather doubt it. The NX70 should be excellent for what you want to do. It (like the CX cams it is based on) can go much lower than you will usually need Because the NX also has more controls and more accessible manual controls than the CX cams, you will likely be able to do even better.

As for "poor" reviews, it helps to know what reviews you have seen so we can see the context. I recall reading one review where the writer thought the CX550 was "terrible" in low light because the iris would only go down to f/3.5. The reviewer apparently did not understand that zooming in affects how wide your camera's iris can go, which does affect low light ability as well. Your CX/NX may have f1.8 at full wide but only about (I think) f/3.5 at full zoom. There is a similar reduction with every camera I know of. Do note that the NX and CX cams go very wide on the wide angle end of things. For example, the Canon HV20 was (I think) something like 43° at maximum width, but my NX and CX cams have 30° lenses. I recall reading some reviews where the CX or NX cams were zoomed in to correspond to the lesser width of the other camera's lenses, to give comparable framing. The folks apparently were not aware that zooming in could reduce maximum aperture size, so they claimed that the low light performance was not what Sony claimed and no better (or worse) than the camera they were compairing.

There is also "spec shopping." I've read a few reviews or posts (not here) where folks claimed that the XHA1 was better in low light than the NX5 because the XHA1 specifications rated it at 0.4 lux while the NX5 only does 1.5 lux. But the XH cam gets that with a virtually unusable 1/4 sec. shutter speed while the NX cam is rated with a 1/30 sec. shutter speed.

So, I hope this answers your questions.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Gotta resurrect this thread briefly as we are finally at a point where we can make this changeover.

Found a supposedly "new and untouched" Sony CX500V for $700 obo locally. How much difference is there between a 500v and a 550v? Is that a decent price?

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Rey -
Maybe for a new and untouched one, it's "OK", I've got two near mint ones I'm selling for around $200 less with accessories... no boxes or papers, but who needs that anyway!?

Good "B" cameras, slightly smaller LCD (2.7 vs. 3.5), no Viewfinder, and the older lens range, which starts at a narrower field and has a bit more tele. If you add a wide angle Sony HG .7x lens, you get basically the same lens range as a 550. No headphone or mic in, although you can go in through the Ai Shoe for Sony branded accessories. Personally I prefer the front mounted button/control wheel, the CX500 has a smallish one located at the rear, it's fine for adjustments, but I like the front mount better.

Hope that gives you some idea of the differences - I used the pair I've got to match with the XR500 and then the CX550, they are excellent for acquiring a high quality video image as they use the same basic sensor block. I didn't need the added audio capabilities, or I'd use a Sony bluetooth mic in 5.1 mode (camera surround with bluetooth mic being the center channel). For that, they did the job, and did it well, but I try to retire equipment after a couple years and upgrade.

If you decide the CX500V would meet your needs, (or have any more Q's), I've got a couple here looking for a good home!

I went back and looked at what you're planning, and again, these would probably make good B/C angle cameras - that's exactly why I bought and used them - inexpensive way to get additional angles, and a good image quality match for the higher end Sony cams (like a pair of CX550's or 700's). Plus, because they are small and light and have good OIS, they make a "handy" camera ror personal use!

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Just the man I was hoping to hear from!

I may be able to get this one for $500 cash. He seems very eager to get rid of it.

My hope is that I can use it as a third camera to place off to the side of the stage on the floor and locked down for a different angle/perspective to go to. I was also hoping that it would make a decent emergency backup for what will be my "B" cam - the CX550V or CX700V.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

yep, $500 is a pretty good "going rate", wish it were more, since I'm selling mine, but... and yes, will be perfect as a cutaway extra cam - I usually shoot 4 cams for stage type productions - two 550's and the 500's. Going to be going a slightly different direction, and hoping to help finance an "A" cam - the NX70 beckons, or perhaps the coming VG20...

If your seller doesn't go for it, let me know, I've got a couple 500's here! I ship, and PayPal works fine!

FWIW, I used a single tripod with a custom made "multi head" so I could run 4 cams - one wide, the two 500's set to cover the two side stage zones, and one cam on a fluid pan head to cover center and zoom in for tight shots, etc., pretty much guarantees a usable shot to cut to, and that everyone on stage gets some decent "screen time".

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Thanks again, Dave. Unfortunately, it sold before I made a decision. On the other hand, I do have the Canon up for sale (no bites yet), so we're beginning to take the "leap".

Unless a great deal comes up, it looks like we're going with the Sony HXR-NX70U and one or two of the higher end CX models (550V/560V/700V or equivalent). The NX70 has a slightly higher price than some of it's Canon and Panasonic counterparts, but Sony seems to have not only a better price on the other two, but better features for the money.

Of course, if someone wants to point out a setup I've overlooked, I've got nothing but time until the Canon is gone. Which needs to be soon, btw! :)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I've got my eye on the NX70 as well, or perhaps the new VG20, with my 550V pair and a few smaller Sony P&S cameras for backup angles, plus the new SLR/SLT cameras will shoot video (short clips, they heat up fast!).

If you decide the "B" cameras don't need to be as fancy, I've still got those CX500V's! Plus I've got a lot of extras so they are "ready to shoot", let me know if you'd be interested in picking up a pair that way - they've served me well, and I almost want to keep one, but if you get that Canon sold and the #'s add up, I'd sell the pair... They should be a pretty good match to the NX70, they were spot on with the CX550's.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

For the type of work you do I would suggest you get a PD150, PD170, or another VX2100 and be done with it. Your footage will match, and you will not get better low-light in hardly anything out there even new.

If you must go Hd to make the wife happy so be it, but for your work I would think you could squeeze more life out of your old camera. Use the Canon as a backup or third cam., sweet!

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

Dave - What you asking for the pair?

Jeff - That's still a thought if things fall through. I just got the wife onboard with the switch to HD after pointing out all of the advantages compared to the way I shoot now - especially eliminating the addition of more of the countless miniDV tapes packed away. Another advantage is the ability to set up cameras away from me that I don't have to "babysit". Right now, the constant adjustments between just two cams and a soundboard sometimes carrying six channels of audio are nerve wracking on top of the anxiety I deal with wondering if one of the cams is going to give up on me during a shoot. If only to make my life easier... :)

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

With a PD150 or 170 you'd have much better audio options with two inputs. For what you do I'm not sure HD would be any advantage at all. The low light on these HD cameras isn't even close to what you're using (the Sony).

Dave cameras are great ones, for sure. But only if you can accept a significant loss in low light ability compared to what you're using now. If they made a 16:9 version of the VX2100 I would have bought it, and I'd still be using today. I would skip HD altogether if I could but I couldn't, so here I am, in editing hell where everything takes forever and a day to process.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

I hear ya...and fully agree. However, I no longer feel like I can compete and expand into recital videography without the upgrade to HD. The customers may or may not notice in the end product (except for better framing via widescreen), but clients that have made a verbal commitment to us for the coming year expect more angles and no missed shots because of tape changes.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

If your're running mulitple cams tape changes shouldn't even be a factor. You change them at different times. I do catholic masses and had to change tapes every time, but the customer never noticed. You make sure your other cam has a good shot, change tapes, and you're done, no issue. I used 90 minute tapes as well. I'm sure you know this.

You're already set on the HD, go for it.

Re: Opinions Needed, Please
 

1. With tapeless, tape changes are NEVER a factor. Much nicer to be able to not worry about that "extra thing". hit record, let 'er run. Hit the button again at the end.

2. If it's so dark you can't see with your eyes, you're not going to get a decent image anyway, I know the older VX's have a reputation, but the newer Sonys (anything 500 series or later) with the EXMOR R sensor technology will do just fine, thank you, if you set them properly. There are limits with any camera, but the backlit sensors stepped up quite a bit, I have yet to worry about shooting any "stage" show with them.

3. While you have to INVEST in the necessary hardware to process HD (AVCHD especially), it's like anything else, it's an investment. MAYBE the end user won't see the difference, but if they expect "HD" image quality and you can't deliver, you're out of the game, and I'm sorry, but SD footage shot 4:3 or buying equipment to shoot such footage is a poor investment decision. If it's not obsolete already, it's going there sooner rather than later.

Shooting stage shows wide screen will simply look better (better format, less "dead space"), shooting in HD will give you more options, even if ultimately you deliver in SD for another season or two (or since DVD's are still the most common delivery format, for the foreseeable future!). Yes, it can take more edit time, and rendering is a pain IF you're maintaining a full HD workflow on an older machine that can't handle the data rate. There are workarounds, some better than others. BUT, you save substantial time on "ingest" over tape (1/3 real time vs. real time), which adds up with multi-cam, and if your computer is up to par, editing should be about the same, just be prepared for longer rendering times and go have a little time off while the computer does the work!




If you shoot HD and you and the customer don't see the difference, then you're doing something wrong...