How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

I guess, gearwise, I'm at the point where the next thing I might improve would be my sound capture.

I want to know your honest opinions though. Is sound quality something we just get hung up on for pride and self satisfaction reasons? Or is it really something the bride and groom will be picky about?

I have had a lot of problems with reverb in old churches, and people not holding mics close enough to hear etc... but until now, my clients seem to have the attitude of "I guess thats out of our control".

I hav a little dictaphone with a lapelle mic which i could put on the groom or minister. But I would feel uncomfortable knowing i was recording every little whisper.

Does anyone who has invested in Zoom recorders and the like really judge it as integral to their work?

Convince me!

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Good sound is just as essential as good video. Imagine watching a programme on TV that had great images but sound that didn't compliment them. Sound is as important as the image, if not more so. And its easy to achieve. Radio mics, audio recorders etc are not that expensive these days, and are very easy to set up. I spend an 8 hour day checking and leveling the audio of a wedding shoot. If you have great images, dont let them down with ropey sound.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Scenario:

Outdoor wedding, high wind...no audio "reinforcement", acoustic harp...

Without my old iRivers (about to be retired for Olympus recorders), I'd have had little or nothing usable audio wise... One on the harpists music stand (mostly good except for one gust that overloaded EVERY mic), and one on the groom (again mostly good, with some wind noise in a few spots...).

A small recorder, or better 3-4, with decent lav mics are a necessity if you want even "good" audio quality ("great" is saved for when everything works perfectly, GOOD is for when you manage to pull off the audio under nightmarish conditions, AKA the typical wedding!).

If the vows don't matter, if the musicians/speakers don't matter, well maybe on camera audio is "enough"... but having a good solid audio track for those things seems rather important...

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Great footage + mediocre audio = bad video!
Average footage + good audio = GREAT VIDEO!'

People hear to reinforce what they see-it's a perception. When it's good it means referrals. When it's bad, well you get bad reviews and lose business.

I was always against a non-monitored sound system but finally gave in got a Tascam. It has saved my ragged butt more than a few times this year when I needed more than 2 wireless audio sets. It'll be used again on Saturday because of the set up. Do I use it all the time? Nope but I learned a lesson back when I was in the Army. My first Sgt once said "Better to have it and not need it than not have it and die for it" (he wasn't talking about audio recorders)
Well I wouldn't die without my recorder but it sure has made things a lot easier for me.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Good audio is essential! You can do all manner of things (FX) to a video image and people can forgive it and maybe call it art but audio is audio and we judge it accordingly. Audio is much less forgiving than visuals and like the others say here, we don't want to be known for poor audio.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

You are worried about recording every little whisper - you record every visit to the toilet too! If you are a professional (or an amateur with a professional attitude) then sound is equally as important as picture, sometimes even more important! The vows are the most important words they'll ever say (hopefully) so the idea that recording them badly is how it is seems crazy to me. There's plenty of evidence that when watching TV nowadays, many people are reading/typing/working and listen as their primary channel, looking up at the screen when they hear something interesting - so quality audio is that important.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Last night I watched a new TV show (I won't mention it) because it ws filmed here in Chi-town and I have a son who is in the same industry. I kind of got bored with the show so I closed my eyes and listened to the show for about 3 or 4 minutes. Without seeing it, I pretty much knew what was going on. Of course I missed the visual part of the characters but still, I had the idea.
Good audio is everything. Bad audio, I'd might have turned the program off. Brides and grooms will do the same.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

One of the first I did.
Church's PA system consisted of a wireless on the priest and one mic on the pulpit.
Readings were great, picked up the PA on my cam mics. The sermon from the priest was great, he was double mic'd being at the pulpit. When it came time for the vows, the priest wanted all eyes on the bride and groom, so he decided to marry them from 30' away, standing down in the center aisle.
Bride and groom at the alter with no mic anywhere close to them. You can hear the priest perfectly. The bride and groom and their vows, it's buried so far into the noise floor, there is no salvation for bringing it back out.
One lapel mic and one recorder in the grooms pocket would have salvaged what turned into a catastrophe.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Perhaps a better question might be: how critical is a sale really? Because if your demo reel has bad sound, people like my wife won't even consider your services. Just sayin'.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

You could ask the same about video quality, is that important? Why bother? If you are a good salesman you probably get that sold as well.

Here is a video I posted in a "filming weddings with small handicams" topic I started, just listen to the sound:

"https://vimeo.com/51005614"
password is "noa"

In church I use a yamaha c24 with a lavalier on the groom (which picks up groom, bride and priest during the vows and exchange of the rings) , a iriver with a lavalier I atach to the lectern microphone, a zoom h1 with a lavalier I attach to the altar microphone. The Indian priest had the yamaha c24 with a lavalier and during the speeches I had a tascam dr40 with a xlr cable connected to the DJ's mixer.

is it worth all the extra trouble using that many different recorders? for me it definetely is, it will lift your production to a more professional level and your clients will also recognise that. That clear sound has become one of my selling points if couples would ask why they have to choose me, not the running around with the steadicam, not the slider or dslr shots but the clear audio as it wil enhance their viewing experience. This is an advantage I have to a lot of my Belgian competitors as most don't even bother.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Sound is our biggest selling point, and in my opinion, the biggest thing that makes a videographer stand out from just getting a photographer! If it sounds bad, then why not just get pictures...or just get uncle bob to run his handy-cam from the balcony and call it good? (obviously an exaggeration, there is a lot more visually we offer, but just from the audio standpoint)

This year we had a bride cancel on us because she won the grand prize at a local wedding show, which a local videographer was included as part of the prize...She recently posted her highlight video on her facebook page, so of course I took a look. When it came to the vows, all you can hear is the officiant, echoing through the overhead speakers, and you can't her them at all! NO mics whatsoever, I couldn't believe it, it was almost sad to me, to miss that part all together. I really wanted to comment and say "wow, I hope your full video has your vows in it." Of course, I didn't.

re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Wow Katie, that's really amazing that a grand prize at a local wedding show would have such an unqualified videographer as part of their package. Interesting.

Chip's story is a good example of having to run thru the ceremony with the officiant to find any 'unusual' plans. Do most of you attend rehearsals?

I prefer to mic the groom, as the officiant is frequently the loudest of the 3 voices.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Convinced Clive ???

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Convince?? It's much the same as saying "Should I take the lens cap off before filming"

Sound is as critical as vision ..without either or poor on either side takes you on a downhill slide to disaster. I think with the posts already you certainly should be convinced!

The bottom line is if the bride cannot hear her vows crisp and clean the wedding is essentially a writeoff!

Oh Mark?? Yep I'm one that also always attends rehearsals..yes it cuts into my own time but I think it's essential as IF they do something you don't expect you at least know about it. I went to one for my forthcoming Saturdaty gig and a Church I've done many many times before and found that the Church remodelling has been completed and they have added a 2nd lectern...the ceremony does the first set of readings from the lectern on the left and the last reading is from the lectern on the right so if I had pitched up with normal gear and no third radio mic in my case I would be sunk for audio from the 2nd lectern.

Chris

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

So.... you think I should take sound more seriously then or what?

Haha, I guess until now I've felt that everything I've recorded on camera has been a least audible, if not pretty. But i guess I should up the quality of this area. And for future safe proofing it seems like a smart idea to cover really quiet shy speakers or lack of venue pa.

Now that you have all convinced me, what do you recommend? And for the record, I don't have an endless supply of cash, so don't insist on ridiculously pricey stuff.

A friend of mine uses a wireless setup and feeds it into his camera. But for me this is wasteful as the camera sound could be seen as a secondary backup. Zoom or Tascam recorders? I could just just my little dictaphone and lavalier mic more often.

What about speaches? How do you keep your audio recording with whoever the person is speaking along the top table? Some hotel pa systems I've experienced are horrific.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Thank God that in our Greek weddings here nothing is spoken...

stelios

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Stelios, when I look at the first 2 demo's on your site I see that during the ceremony the priest speaks and in the second demo I see the bride saying something during the ceremony as well, I would at least supply a lavalier on the groom. Is it so that in Greece couples don't find it important to capture what they or the priests says? Do you just add music on top of the images to cover any speech or do you let it hear in the background with added music?

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Awesome..no audio to worry about.

Stelios, I think I will move to Cyprus and join you!! With my wedding today I had wind issues outside, tomorrow I have a Church where I will have to run at least 3 wireless mic setups and people are speaking from everywhere!!

I think I mentioned that Coptic weddings they also say nothing at all...however the priest and his 16 strong choir are very vocal .... I actually had a radio mic on the groom and the preist was so loud it picked up audio perfectly!!

Chris

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Noa,
There is no way you can put a lavalier on the groom because he says nothing in the ceremony. What you probably saw is a prayer that bride and groom say,sometimes (depending on the priest)) and lasting a few seconds, but not that important to have quality sound on that. Now the prayers that the priest says are coming thru the church audio system and in any case most of the people don't really understand what he is saying as the whole ceremony is in ancient Greek that very few people understand.

Chris,
Yes move to Cyprus you will love it....
stelios

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Using a mic on the groom often also picks up the priests voice if they are close, beside getting audio from the groom that's also a reason why I would mic the groom. getting a lavalier on the priest is not possible here in a church so if the priest is on the move with a wireless mike I will add one recorder on a lightstand close to the church loudpeakers, it doesn't sound as good but still better then what you can record with the camera microphone.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Zoom H1 or wireless transmittor on the Groom, wireless will save you the job of syncing the audio in post. Decent mic on the cam, Sennheiser or the much more affordable Rode NTG2, and the wireless receiver, both fed into the cam via XLR. If your camera doesnt have XLR inputs use something like a Juicedlink XLR adaptor. As for speeches, never trust the venues sound system, its a recipe for disaster, always have complete control over your audio. Use a wireless or cabled mic, on a tabletop mic stand, and get the speakers to, or move it yourself between speakers. I often get away with the sound from my on camera Rode, Simply because I am pretty close to the top table during the speeches

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

I've done about 3 or 4 Greek ceremonies this year and I actually enjoy doing them. First I get to be on the Salia (sp) behind the bridesmaids. The priests around here are quite open to both video and photography so they make the job much easier. I DO mic the groom but only use him as a mic stand as it were. When the priest is back away from the groom I get good audio from my hypercaroid and when he's in front of the B&G the audio is great. The couple of Greek priests I've worked with have great booming voices and definately speak at a higher level than many other officiants I've worked with.
The 2 Greek churches I typically shoot in are a pleasure. It makes me think about doing just Greek ceremonies from now on. ;-)

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

The biggest difference between a video professional and an amateur (uncle Dave) is the audio.
If you're a professional and do this for a living, good audio techniques this will separate you from the pack, and give you the ability to charge what you should for your work.

Average or poorly shot video can be salvaged to a good degree in post. But poor audio is very very difficult to salvage if not captured properly.

For myself I try to make sure that all possible audio sources have a mic on them. That just means that I use wireless systems and portable audio recorders to capture the audio. So for a wedding ceremony for example this is what I typically do:

1. Groom: Sennheiser wireless mic to 2 video cameras
2. Officiant: Tascam Dr-05 with lav mic
3. Readings on Lectern: Tascam Dr-05 using onboard mics
4. Musicians (strings and or woodwinds): Zoom H2 using onboard mics
5. Musicians or soloist (larger setup): Zoom H4N using onboard mics and/or external mics

For receptions I usually double mic a PA stack with a Rode M3 (mic) with wireless transmitter going back to cameras, and Zoom H4n using onboard mics and/or onboard mics with external mics.

Both give me more than adequate multiple audio sources to pull audio from.
You will notice that I don't mention taking an audio board feed. Sometimes I do take a board feed to be used for backup purposes. But more times than not I don;t like taking a board feed as I even know exactly what I might get out of it, as the board operator (DJ) normally doesn't even know what outputs they have available. And more times than not they over modulate the feed going into my recorder.

Besides a board feed, I might also take a feed from the back of the PA system.
But personally I prefer a live mic recording and mix in post as a board feed is too sterile for a video by itself. Board feeds are great for readings, speeches and such, for voice overs. But they still need live ambiance mixed in to work properly for a live event such as a wedding. So you still need some room tone, and foley effects such as clapping, laughing, cheering and such to make it realistic.

This is another reason why I like live (non board) recording. As, when captured properly makes post work easy. As I already have the actual audio recorded (voice, music, laughter, clapping etc.) at once so less post work is needed.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Sounds good Michael,

But isn't that a lot of audio channels to sync in post? When you mic up the groom, do you not ever find him sneakily whispering something private during the ceremony?

Also, putting the audio into the cameras is something I'd worry about. A battery dying in one of the devices would be disastrous no?

I'm thinking of using my Philips dictaphone and lavaliere on the groom. (This should pick up the groom, bride and efficient adequatly) , and placing a Zoom h1 somewhere centrally near the front for other readings and prayers etc...

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

I have about the same setup as Michael when it comes up to audio and synching manually in post never takes longer then 20 minutes. They are all 1 hour plus recordings so I only need to synch each soundfile once.
About batteries dying, I add new batteries for every shoot and I know how long each recorder can do before it dies. Only for the zoom h4 I needed a spare set of batteries, with my new tascam dr40 that's not an issue anymore.
Placing the zoom h1 "somewhere centrally" won't help, it needs to be very close to who-ever is reading.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

I just use two radio mics. One on the groom and one on the readings lectern...As it's wireless I can both monitor my signal and also not sync issues at all. I just split the main video track between mics and either use channel one or channel two depending if the action is going on at the couple or the lectern.
One the readings are done I normally switch channel 2 back to the on camera mic ...If any bridal whispers happen during other events I just swop channels.

Chris

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Wireless is great... except where it's not, and if there are multiple wireless systems as is the case in some venues, they aren't. It's nice to be able to "monitor", but if all you're getting is static, interference and garbage... not a single thing you can do about it! You'll likely create several bald spots during the ceremony if you ever get one like this...

IRivers were very popular, and work well, but the old models that recorded properly are getting hard to find (700 and 800 series). I'm retiring mine for some Olympus WS series (came highly recommended from other DVi forum members) - so far they look like they will do the job just fine, and are about the same size as the iRivers, thinner and a tad longer. Picked up some "open box" ones online for fairly cheap, they work fine with the stereo and mono lavs I already had.

I've also got a modded Sony Bluetooth mic system with a lav hooked into it - tests went fine, but I always seem to use the digital recorders!

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

You would probably be better off using the H1 with a lav mic on the groom, will give you much better sound. I will post a link to the mics I use with my Zoom H1, exceptionally good, and only £10 each Check this out, it was made by Gary Natrass, an ex BBC sound engineer, here in theUK

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Clive, like Noa said earlier, sync isn't a problem in post. Especially since I use FCPX which has a sync feature in it which works great. I also have Plural Eyes for syncing in case FCPX fails. So in most cases I can sync up a ceremony in a matter of minutes, and the reception takes a bit longer but isn't hard to sync either.

Batteries aren't an issue as a new set gets put in every recorder/wireless before a shoot. And as for the H4n comment and batteries, simply use the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries. I use them in my H4n for a days shoot and they work great with no need to change batteries during a reception (4-5+ hours).

And as for the groom whispering something during the ceremony, it's not a big deal as the final delivery isn't a raw edit. So all audio and video is mixed and mastered in post. What's not meant to be heard isn't in the video.

After all who wants to hear the groom taking a leak before the ceremony? =)
I hear this often as I wire up the groom an hour or so before the ceremony. A funny thing happened once as the groom was wired up and I didn't switch off the channel to the onboard mic. I was shooting the bride and her parents outside for the photo session, when all of the sudden I hear the groom taking a leak. I almost busted a gut as I was filming.

Needless to say the bride never knew about this. =)

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Colin, thanks for the tip on the UltraDisk microphones. I have just ordered a couple that I will use with my Yamaha C-24 recorders that are half the size of the Zoom H1s. They even seem to have a sale on so the mics are only £8.95. I note that they come with either a 3m or a 1m of cable. The latter is far more manageable for hiding in the groom's suit pocket. Lapel Lavalier Tie Clip Microphones - UltraDisk Microphones - Lapel Microphones - UltraDisk Digital Voice Recorders Store

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Glad it helped Nigel. I have a couple of the 4016 with 1 metre cable (much neater for placement). The mics are described as unidirectional, but they seem to veer more on the omnidirectional side. Perfect on the groom. Pointing downward, they pick up everthing from the groom, bride and vicar. An excellent mic, and the price is unbelievable.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Pointing downward, they pick up everthing from the groom, bride and vicar.[/QUOTE]This is a trick that we picked up on a while ago. I wish I could remember who recommended it to me as it's very effective for getting good audio from all three participants without having to adjust the levels down every time the groom speaks. I not only place it upside down but also lower down on the groom's lapel so it's not far above his top button.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Hi Nigel

The upside down is a new one for me but I have always kept the groom's mic low down just above the top button too!! Makes the audio a lot more even as you say and no powerful groom audio and thin bride audio.

Please explain the theory behind placing the mic upside down??? It sounds like it certainly works but I would love to know the reason. Going to try it on tomorrows wedding I think!!

Chris

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Chris. Its an old trick, main benefit is, it helps to stop pops in the audio

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Yes, even if you are using the lav mic for just one speaker & have it high up on the lapel then the theory is that it reduces any plosive pops (not often I get the chance to use the word 'plosive':-)

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Interesting! I wouldn't have thought that you would pick up any pops with the mic 12" away...I never have ..I was thinking maybe it got some added output from floor reflections as well.

I was always of the opinion that if sound is going to travel it would rather go upwards, but I'm no sound engineer of course....Does it give you some degree of attenuation with the mic pointing at the floor??? or doesn't it seem to make any difference. I have laid a boundary mic on a bridal table when speeches are done from there and it's quite amazing how well it will grab audio even from 2 metres away..however you do tend to lose a lot of low frequency response.

I will try the upside down idea !! Maybe a test at home is a good idea first?

Thanks Guys

Chris

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Chris.
It will be slightly better with an omni mic

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

Chris, definitely test it out first at home. I got caught out badly when a lav which I had assumed was omnidirectional turned out to be cardioid :- (

You'll often see lavs angled downwards on TV guests and announcers.

Pete

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

To all...very interesting discussion. I was also caught completely off-guard regarding the "audio side". Luckily, I had DVI and the fine folks who frequent the 'Forum' to get me back on 'track' (pun intended). I started with a RODE NTG-3 Shotgun and a Sennheiser G-3 kit, both helped me get through my first project, a documentary on serial killers submitted to Sundance Committee for review. I added a couple of impedance matched stereo microphones, AKG 414 XLS and AKG 451 b, for ensemble musical recording and a Sound-Devices SD-302 mixer with a Marantz PMD-661 digital recorder. I have several mic stands I use since I'm a one-man operation.

IMHO, audio is 98% of video. Human beings are "wired" to fill-in the visual gaps, but bad audio will degrade the overall visual experience for most viewer's. JMHO, YMMV.

Best regards,

J.

Re: How crucial is great audio quality really?
 

I'd agree that audio especially the spoken word is vital, you can get by with poor video but if you cant hear clearly whats been spoken it's really annoying.

I often see on TV interviews that people wear what looks like a double lav mike and yeah most appear to point downward, why the double one?