CRB check for weddings.

Steve Slattery · February 11th, 2013, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Nuther

I've just been told by a couple who've booked me to do their wedding that the vicar has said that he'll only allow video if the videographer has a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check.

Ive never heard of anything so ridiculous, it makes you wonder where the restrictions will end.>>>>>need to pay church a license fee, need to get CRB checked, cant stand at the front. I had one vicar tell me I couldnt mic the groom up.

Roger Gunkel · February 11th, 2013, 08:51 AM

There are absolutely no requirements in the Church's own published guidelines for the UK to require a CRB check. On the contrary the guidelines issued to UK clergy regarding weddings is very fair.Here is a part that is relevant to video.

(Quote ) 8. An annually-renewable Church Copyright Licence covers most songs reproduced for wedding ceremonies and also permits live music during the service (including worship) to be recorded.
If the wedding is recorded a musician can charge extra, according to their association guidelines (but only if your local contract supports this practise). It is also open to organists to waive this as a gift to the couple. See the Church of England's press release for more on this, and recent press coverage.
9. If the wedding is filmed any videography fee charged by the Church should only reflect the real expense incurred by the church by having a video camera in the building – wear and tear, etc. Given the tiny size of video equipment today it is very likely that this will be nil. In any case it can be waived at your discretion. (unquote)

I had a situation a few years ago where I filmed a wedding at a local church where the female vicar had been in charge for many years and totally refused to allow any videoing in the church at all. However as the bridegroom had been an altar boy there for many years, she allowed him to have me video it. She even complimented me on how unobtrusive I had been. 2 years ago, a couple who wanted to get married there, told me that she completely refused permission for a video. I rang her and reminded her of her previous exception and compliments, and she reluctantly allowed me to film. However she insisted that the young couple who had two young children and a minimal income, would have to pay various costs and fees to the church because it was being videoed. The couple were already paying the church £560 for the wedding ceremony, organist and bells, and she insisted that they paid a further £500 because of the video filming. She obviously wanted to put it out of their price range, but they were determined and went ahead.

I had a long telephone conversation with the area Dean who I knew well and also put in a written complaint to the Bishop.detailing the legal requirements and moral ones. The net result following other complaints was that after 15 years of upsetting people, the vicar was suddenly moved two weeks ago to another post in a very difficult area many miles away.

I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically.

Roger

Peter Riding · February 11th, 2013, 09:12 AM

I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically.

Roger, may I ask your source for that. My understanding is that the top brass can issue guidelines but the final decision rests at local level. I also came across some guidelines (sorry can't remember source now) recommending that the fee structure be simplified so that any bill additions are kept to an absolute minimum and preferably not applied at all; this was in the context of trying to grab back some of the business that the CofE has lost to licensed civil venues, and the brass were aware that all the rules and fees were putting off prospective "clients".

Pete

Roger Gunkel · February 11th, 2013, 11:05 AM

Peter, I'll see of I can find the link again, I spent a couple of hours about two weeks ago trawling through a lot of CofE website pages and there are a number of different sites. I'll post it here if I can find it.

I did save the current 2013 forms that the church use for wedding charges that I can post if members would find them useful.

I'll get back when I find the relevant information.

Roger

Oliver Nuther · February 11th, 2013, 11:46 AM

I think this may be it
The reasonable and clear guide to charging for a wedding - The Weddings Project Resource Centre

Roger Gunkel · February 11th, 2013, 12:13 PM

You beat me to it Oliver:-)There's some useful information there and I have filmed at many weddings where those guidelines have been ignored either deliberately or through ignorance.

There is also useful information through this C of E site http://www.churchofengland.org/media...%20answers.pdf

Roger

Dave Partington · February 11th, 2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Nuther

I think this may be it
The reasonable and clear guide to charging for a wedding - The Weddings Project Resource Centre

I have a copy of this too.... but guess what? It's only applicable to 'participating churches' !

I'm not sure how Roger found information to say it's illegal to charge more. Usually the claim is that the organist or choir wants paying "more" because they are being "recorded". So, if you can provide a link showing such illegality I would be grateful.

In the past I've even offered to over dub the music of the entrance and recessional for one couple and not record the hymns at all to save them money (and just pay the copyright on the recorded music) but the Vicar said that was unacceptable and the organist would need to be paid regardless of whether recorded him or not, simply because we 'could' and they'd have no control. When I raised the idea that even if I wasn't there, friends and family could also record him on their own camcorders or even iPhones the Vicar responded that "wasn't the same thing"!

In the end the extra church fee for video was £350, but I often wonder, did the organist really get all that extra, and did the HMRC get their cut? I think not.

I hesitate (nay, dread) the idea of regulation in markets such as wedding videography, but I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't actually help keep the cowboys and low budget people out and stop them screwing with the rest of us by their unprofessional conduct. But then I remember that where there's a rule that the good guys follow, there's almost always a way around it, and the cowboys will simply tell the couple to say their 'friend' was going to video it for them and then they'd bypass all the red tape.

< sigh >

Roger Gunkel · February 11th, 2013, 03:10 PM

David, as I said in my earlier post I'll link to it if I can find it again, it wasn't on the usual church website and I wish I had bookmarked it at the time.

Half the problem seems to be that people are afraid to question the Church and they just lay down and accept what they are told has to happen. The guidelines that Oliver linked to shows the legal charges that may be made, and the extent to which optional charges may be made. The word 'optional' is very important and the suggestion that optional charges may be exploited is something that the site I looked at was very concerned about. Any suggestion that optional charges are mandatory, or failure to disclose that they are optional could lead to accusations of illegal exploitation. It is also mad clear that any charges made by the church should me clearly invoiced or listed in case of any dispute.

Here is a section from the document that I linked to earlier, regarding the PCC fees:-
(Quote) 6 What does this mean in practice?
• New levels of fees came into effect from 1 January 2013.
• For the first time the Order specifies that parochial fees include any costs and expenses incurred in relation to a service for routine administration (including arranging dates and times and the making of entries in registers), making the church available and lighting it. It is unlawful to make any additional charge, besides the parochial fee, for these items. (Unquote)

Roger

Dave Partington · February 11th, 2013, 03:25 PM

Thanks Roger.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out in the coming months.

I did a job in September where the couple of secretly moaning to me about the church fees. They'd been charged £600 and the Vicar justified it by saying the church was 'old' and had 'extra upkeep costs'.

Roger Gunkel · February 11th, 2013, 03:31 PM

OK here is the link to an Anglican website that mentioned the illegality of certain charges
.http://www.lincoln.anglican.org/pdf_view.php?id=1031
Edited to add this one that I also just found. http://www.dioceseofyork.org.uk/dioc...arochial-fees/

Roger

Peter Riding · February 12th, 2013, 07:11 AM

Those documents appear to be contradicted by this one issued by the Church of England in December 2012 for effect from January 2013. Search on "video" and it explicitly states that extras can be charged at the discretion of the parochial church council and video is listed under these extras.

http://www.churchofengland.org/media...s%20_2013_.pdf

Pete

Paul R Johnson · February 12th, 2013, 07:21 AM

I'm wondering if the 'law' being talked about is church law, and NOT a law covered by an act of parliament - if so, then it's Church of England only, isn't it?

On the CRB front, it also shows the vicar is ignorant of what CRB is? Self employed people cannot get a check carried out on themselves - because they'd have to ask questions about themselves, which just doesn't work. The new version also prevents self-checking. If the vicar wants the check, he would be the only person who could get it (and pay for it).

Roger Gunkel · February 12th, 2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Riding

Those documents appear to be contradicted by this one issued by the Church of England in December 2012 for effect from January 2013. Search on "video" and it explicitly states that extras can be charged at the discretion of the parochial church council and video is listed under these extras.

http://www.churchofengland.org/media...s%20_2013_.pdf

Pete

An interesting find Peter as many of the points made seem to be in direct contradiction to some of the other documents. It appears that there are a number of variations depending on which section of the church organisation issued it.

So basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and vicars are getting even more confused. What a ridiculous state of affairs particularly if one church decides that they will charge a totally random extra charge for having a videographer present at a wedding. On what basis would such a charge be made and in what way would the church incur extra costs by the presence of a videographer.

Even the link that you have added says that any extras must be fair and reasonable, and I can't see how that can be estimated. I have seen charges levied for permission to video during a 30 minute service that equates to £1000 per hour in the example I quoted earlier in the thread. I would certainly question the legality of that level of exploitation.

Roger

Roger Gunkel · February 12th, 2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

On the CRB front, it also shows the vicar is ignorant of what CRB is? Self employed people cannot get a check carried out on themselves - because they'd have to ask questions about themselves, which just doesn't work. The new version also prevents self-checking. If the vicar wants the check, he would be the only person who could get it (and pay for it).

I may be wrong here but surely the vicar would not be able to apply for a CRB check as he is not employing the videographer. If he could, then surely the videographer would equally be able to apply for a check on the vicar. I would have thought that only the couple contracting the videographer could possibly apply for a CRB check, but to the best of my knowledge and googling, an individual cannot apply for a check on another individual unless they are an employer, which the couple would no be in legal terms. If the videographer was booked through an agency, the agency might be able to apply for a disclosure check. In all cases, the permission of the videographer would be neccessary.

I am quite happy to be shown that is incorrect though as I am not an expert.

Roger

James Manford · February 16th, 2013, 06:24 AM

The vicar sounds like an imbecile ... It's reasons like this that wind me up doing Event videography.

The only person that needs to double check your skills and who you are as a person is the bride/groom employing you.

NO BODY ELSE.

February 11th, 2013, 08:51 AM	#17
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: CRB check for weddings. There are absolutely no requirements in the Church's own published guidelines for the UK to require a CRB check. On the contrary the guidelines issued to UK clergy regarding weddings is very fair.Here is a part that is relevant to video. (Quote ) 8. An annually-renewable Church Copyright Licence covers most songs reproduced for wedding ceremonies and also permits live music during the service (including worship) to be recorded. If the wedding is recorded a musician can charge extra, according to their association guidelines (but only if your local contract supports this practise). It is also open to organists to waive this as a gift to the couple. See the Church of England's press release for more on this, and recent press coverage. 9. If the wedding is filmed any videography fee charged by the Church should only reflect the real expense incurred by the church by having a video camera in the building – wear and tear, etc. Given the tiny size of video equipment today it is very likely that this will be nil. In any case it can be waived at your discretion. (unquote) I had a situation a few years ago where I filmed a wedding at a local church where the female vicar had been in charge for many years and totally refused to allow any videoing in the church at all. However as the bridegroom had been an altar boy there for many years, she allowed him to have me video it. She even complimented me on how unobtrusive I had been. 2 years ago, a couple who wanted to get married there, told me that she completely refused permission for a video. I rang her and reminded her of her previous exception and compliments, and she reluctantly allowed me to film. However she insisted that the young couple who had two young children and a minimal income, would have to pay various costs and fees to the church because it was being videoed. The couple were already paying the church £560 for the wedding ceremony, organist and bells, and she insisted that they paid a further £500 because of the video filming. She obviously wanted to put it out of their price range, but they were determined and went ahead. I had a long telephone conversation with the area Dean who I knew well and also put in a written complaint to the Bishop.detailing the legal requirements and moral ones. The net result following other complaints was that after 15 years of upsetting people, the vicar was suddenly moved two weeks ago to another post in a very difficult area many miles away. I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically. Roger

February 11th, 2013, 09:12 AM	#18
Peter Riding Major Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Reading Berkshire UK Posts: 872	Re: CRB check for weddings. I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically. Roger, may I ask your source for that. My understanding is that the top brass can issue guidelines but the final decision rests at local level. I also came across some guidelines (sorry can't remember source now) recommending that the fee structure be simplified so that any bill additions are kept to an absolute minimum and preferably not applied at all; this was in the context of trying to grab back some of the business that the CofE has lost to licensed civil venues, and the brass were aware that all the rules and fees were putting off prospective "clients". Pete

February 11th, 2013, 11:05 AM	#19
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: CRB check for weddings. Peter, I'll see of I can find the link again, I spent a couple of hours about two weeks ago trawling through a lot of CofE website pages and there are a number of different sites. I'll post it here if I can find it. I did save the current 2013 forms that the church use for wedding charges that I can post if members would find them useful. I'll get back when I find the relevant information. Roger

February 11th, 2013, 11:46 AM	#20
Oliver Nuther New Boot Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Northamptonshire, UK Posts: 13	Re: CRB check for weddings. I think this may be it The reasonable and clear guide to charging for a wedding - The Weddings Project Resource Centre

February 11th, 2013, 12:13 PM	#21
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: CRB check for weddings. You beat me to it Oliver:-)There's some useful information there and I have filmed at many weddings where those guidelines have been ignored either deliberately or through ignorance. There is also useful information through this C of E site http://www.churchofengland.org/media...%20answers.pdf Roger Last edited by Roger Gunkel; February 11th, 2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Spilling mistooks

February 11th, 2013, 03:10 PM	#23
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: CRB check for weddings. David, as I said in my earlier post I'll link to it if I can find it again, it wasn't on the usual church website and I wish I had bookmarked it at the time. Half the problem seems to be that people are afraid to question the Church and they just lay down and accept what they are told has to happen. The guidelines that Oliver linked to shows the legal charges that may be made, and the extent to which optional charges may be made. The word 'optional' is very important and the suggestion that optional charges may be exploited is something that the site I looked at was very concerned about. Any suggestion that optional charges are mandatory, or failure to disclose that they are optional could lead to accusations of illegal exploitation. It is also mad clear that any charges made by the church should me clearly invoiced or listed in case of any dispute. Here is a section from the document that I linked to earlier, regarding the PCC fees:- (Quote) 6 What does this mean in practice? • New levels of fees came into effect from 1 January 2013. • For the first time the Order specifies that parochial fees include any costs and expenses incurred in relation to a service for routine administration (including arranging dates and times and the making of entries in registers), making the church available and lighting it. It is unlawful to make any additional charge, besides the parochial fee, for these items. (Unquote) Roger

February 11th, 2013, 03:25 PM	#24
Dave Partington Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: York, England Posts: 1,323	Re: CRB check for weddings. Thanks Roger. It will be interesting to see how this pans out in the coming months. I did a job in September where the couple of secretly moaning to me about the church fees. They'd been charged £600 and the Vicar justified it by saying the church was 'old' and had 'extra upkeep costs'. __________________ Qualified UAV Pilot with CAA PFAW Aerial Photo / Aerial Video \| Corporate Video Production

February 11th, 2013, 03:31 PM	#25
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: CRB check for weddings. OK here is the link to an Anglican website that mentioned the illegality of certain charges .http://www.lincoln.anglican.org/pdf_view.php?id=1031 Edited to add this one that I also just found. http://www.dioceseofyork.org.uk/dioc...arochial-fees/ Roger Last edited by Roger Gunkel; February 11th, 2013 at 03:34 PM. Reason: New link

February 12th, 2013, 07:11 AM	#26
Peter Riding Major Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Reading Berkshire UK Posts: 872	Re: CRB check for weddings. Those documents appear to be contradicted by this one issued by the Church of England in December 2012 for effect from January 2013. Search on "video" and it explicitly states that extras can be charged at the discretion of the parochial church council and video is listed under these extras. http://www.churchofengland.org/media...s%20_2013_.pdf Pete

February 12th, 2013, 07:21 AM	#27
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: CRB check for weddings. I'm wondering if the 'law' being talked about is church law, and NOT a law covered by an act of parliament - if so, then it's Church of England only, isn't it? On the CRB front, it also shows the vicar is ignorant of what CRB is? Self employed people cannot get a check carried out on themselves - because they'd have to ask questions about themselves, which just doesn't work. The new version also prevents self-checking. If the vicar wants the check, he would be the only person who could get it (and pay for it).

February 16th, 2013, 06:24 AM	#30
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: CRB check for weddings. The vicar sounds like an imbecile ... It's reasons like this that wind me up doing Event videography. The only person that needs to double check your skills and who you are as a person is the bride/groom employing you. NO BODY ELSE.