Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Hi everyone, I used to be on here quite regularly but haven't posted in a while (still read though!)

So I mainly film weddings. I use a GL2. EVERYONE and their dog is asking about High Def. I have looked on Henry's website and they are selling second hand GL2's for $1,000. They are also selling entry point HD cameras for $800.

SONY HDR-CX430VB 32GB HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER HDRCX430VB
this particular camera films for 11.5 hours etc and seems like it could do what I need. I could trade in both Gl2s for 2 of these.

Trying to decide if I should make the jump?

Aside from the obvious "keeping up with what the client wants" I am considering the switch because mini DV tape is getting harder to find, my gear weighs so much more than what you can get now. And mainly because I find once it's compressed onto DVD I can see the loss in quality.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Kelsey

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

We went HD and tapeless 4 or 5 years ago. I'm not going back to tape or SD!

I'm not familiar with the specific camcorder you are looking at, though I would caution you in several areas.

Firstly, what are the manual controls like? Unless you are an auto-everything type of shooter (after all these years can that be true?) then pay close attention to the usability of the camera for manual focus, manual iris, manual shutter, manual white balance, manual gain. Hopefully you already thought of this!

Second, how will you capture sound? There are no XLR inputs on these types of cameras, no easy way to attach wireless mics etc. You've shot enough by now to know what you need.

Next, pay close attention to what this camera is like in low light. Not all the consumer cameras are great, but they are not all really bad either. Noise on HD footage can be pretty nasty if your camera isn't up to the job.

Then, what codec is it using (probably AVCHD) and is your editing system up to the task? What else will you need to buy (computers and software) in order to make this work? Editing HD puts much more strain on your hardware than SD ever did and AVCHD yet more strain than an editing codec such as ProRes or DNxHD. There is quite a lot of software out there claiming to edit AVCHD natively, and most of it does a reasonable job provided you have an up-spec PC/Mac. If you're a few years out of date then you're going to need to budget for a computer upgrade sooner rather than later.

In terms of should you go HD? I would think the market for 4x3 SD is fast diminishing now. we'd shot wide screen for as long as we've been shooting HD and most people's TVs are now 16x9, not 4x3. Some of the older SD cameras did widescreen but you lost resolution and it could look pretty nasty :(

Not everyone is looking for final delivery in full HD, but most people like the fact that you're filming in HD even though they are getting a DVD at the end. Don't really know why, other than most people don't realise (and have never thought about) DVDs are not HD.

If you intend to deliver on Blu-ray, do you have drives and software capable of that delivery? We're often delivering SD on DVD and then providing the HD as a download. YMMV.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Just a couple of comments before you change cameras. You say that everyone is talking about HD, but don't forget that if you are ouputting to dvd, your clients will not be viewing HD. You will have to output to BluRay if you want HD viewing for your clients, and most of my clients in the UK still want dvd.

I changed to small HD cams a couple of years back and love the battery life, lack of moving transport, length of footage without worrying about changing tapes and the ability to transfer footage very quickly rather than waiting for the tape to run through.

The camera that you have linked to though is a single CMOS camera rather than the 3 chip that you have on your current cameras. As far as I can see, the linked camera also has no viewfinder, just the LCD screen, so you may find problems viewing it in sunlight. I would seriously consider looking at 3xcmos cameras which should give you better low light and colour performance, and I would certainly reccommend a viewfinder if you are intending regular outdoors filming.

Just my opinion of course, and I am sure others will offer alternative views.

Roger

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

David got in first, but I totally agree with his points:-)

Roger

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Kelsey, check completed listings for GL2s on ebay and you'll see the GL2 is selling for closer to $500, on a good day. Packages with a hard case, etc., sell for a bit more, up to $650, but that looks like the very high end. Most seem to have sold for between $249 and $449.

I don't know Henry's website you refer to, but I seriously doubt that anyone selling a GL2 for $1000 is getting it, but you never know. SD camcorders are just not in demand, they are becoming like 8 track tapes, obsolete.

If they were 16x9 it would help, but they shoot in 4:3, and are just not worth much these days.

Best of luck to you in your upgrade. Make sure you buy something with a mic input cause with the cameras you're looking at you will need a shotgun microphone.

Also, if you go HD, you're footage will be much more difficult to edit if you use an older PC, so you "may" or "may not" need a new pc or an upgrade. If you shoot multiple cameras and edit multicam, it is a lot more taxing on your pc, so be aware.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Thanks everyone!

Dave I didn't really look into that camera that well and you are right about some of the short comings! Thanks!

I ended up calling a well trusted salesperson at Henrys and he told me that the trade in on the GL2's are $400 a pop (and that price hadn't been updated for 2 years but he is willing to honor it for me).

He also informed me of a new Sony on the market that seems to be a great deal. It rings in at $1200 and is wifi capable so you can live steam a ceremony with the push of a button and as well it has a lens stability that is usually found on $4,000 cameras. Apparently the entire lens is housed in a stabilizer??

Anyway I am going to check out the camera and go from there.

I also think I am moving away form delivering on DVD's and considering giving clients a hard drive option. Seems like that's what everyone is asking for these days??

Thanks for all the input!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

You probably should at least consider jumping on that "offer" - old SD/tape cams don't have a lot of market value. Even HD cams are getting eaten by the smart phones with "HD", meaning the lower end consumer ones are trying to compete on price, and the higher end ones aren't selling like they used to.

You definitely need to consider the computer upgrade side of the equation, you don't edit HD on an old or low spec machine, unless you have a lot of patience...

The Sony 430 you're looking at is a lower spec, and it sounds like your saleperson was at least directing you towards the higher end Sonys with the BOSS stabilization - 3 models last year had the larger 1/3" Exmor sensor, this year they announced ONE. That 4xx series has a 1/4" sensor, which may or may not perform that well... I have a little GW77 and it does OK, but I wouldn't rely on it as a "main" camera under most conditions!

You're probably realistically looking at $1-2K per camera for "upgrades" that won't break the bank and won't be obsolete image wise - you don't want to jump from "really outdated" to "almost outdated"...

One of the challenges is the aforementioned market shift, manufacturers are not doing a lot of development on the higher end consumer camera - Panasonic, Canon and Sony are all doing minor incremental upgrades year over year.

I don't know why delivering on DVD has to be considered "low quality" (think about those "teasers" for BR that look so sharp ON DVD!!). By acquiring in HD to start with, you should be able to produce a reasonably high quality DVD... of course BR burners and players have dropped in price, and I don't think it's possible to buy an "SD" TV anymore! DVD's still sell/rent, and commercial ones don't look "bad" when played on a modern player...

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Well lucky for me my computer was something I won't need to upgrade. It's powerful enough to do the job.

I am considering the "offer" but on our Kijiji the cameras are selling at a bit Higher than they are giving me. If I package them both up and throw in all the extra batteries and lens filters etc I am thinking I *might* get a $1,000 for everything??

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Here is a link to the camera he mentioned to me and I am considering. Any thoughts on this model??

SONY HDR-PJ650VB 32GB HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER HDRPJ650VB

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Once again, I'm going to come back to manual controls. Yes, this camera claims to have manual controls, but if you need to dive in to menus to do it then it's less than optimal under the fast moving stressful situations of a wedding.

Sooooo..... find and download the user manual and do a first look at the controls. Then, if it looks reasonable find one and play with it!

Also, again, no XLR audio. Do you have audio solved in other ways?

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

My experience (both buying and selling) is that bundles generally fetch less than the sum of the parts sold separately. By putting everything together you are limiting the number of people looking to buy 'everything', and if you think about it, everyone is used to getting more for less when they buy bundles of things.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

It's says there is an external audio input. Did I read that wrong?

On Sat I am going to check it out and see if it is user friendly with full manual ability.
On the GL2 I have the option of being in Manual mode or Program mode I guess I sort of assumed that all cameras where the same?

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Most of these camcorders do have an external mic input via 1/8" (3.5mm) jack. That's going to restrict the types of mics you can use, but if your mic has that kind of connection you are probably good to go. Of course you'll need to check you also have manual audio control AND headphone socket for monitoring?

That's rather a dangerous assumption, especially when it comes to consumer cameras.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Valid point!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Only dangerous if I am buying sight unseen?? For the record I'm not an idiot...just looking for some feedback.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Hey Kelsey.

I'd ask myself first, "what kind of weddings" do i want to continue doing?
If your clientelle prefers a documented day, then this Sony might be fine. Low light performance is a huge deal, so be careful.
Personally, this camcorder isn't what i'd buy..You should check out one of the sites' sponsors. They're local to us..Hamilton Video and Sound.
Yes, the camcorders cost a bit more, but they'll pay off in no time.
The manual controls are totally essential, and it will look much more professional.

If you're looking to get into cinematic, this is another ball of wax..

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Manual control on these typically means you can control shutter OR aperature, not both. Auto functions are usually VERY good, and can adapt to changing image conditions faster than most operators. Also there are some pretty cool capabilities via touch screen.

Any of the long term Sony owners here could give you the basic rundown on how to set the camera for best results. These are SMALL cameras, controls are what they are, small, limited, and not for everyone (sausage fingered operators will get frustrated fast!). You generally won't have to access controls a lot (thanks to well tuned "intelligent auto"), but you have SOME control in a pinch.

1/8" mic input and a headphone jack are present right side rear, a bit awkward as they are "under" the handstrap, not a problem if you're on tripod or a rig. You get the BOSS "magic eyeball" which is pretty much as good as a steadycam if you're handheld, it's like the gimballed tracking modules on air to air missles, it stays on target! G glass rather than Zeiss, one place they cut a bit of cost.

Here's the one worry I'd have, this new "6xx" series has the general "upscale features" of the older 5xx and 7xx series, but the specs say it's a 4.7mm sensor vs. a 6.3mm on the PJ790 (likely the same as 2012 7xx series cams)... I'm not familiar with your old GL2, but you may or may not take a performance hit in comparison... IOW, you might find the 650 to be adequate to your expectations, or not - the GL2 was a midrange cam if memory serves, and so your "low light" expectations may not be too high to start with? Since this is a new model, I hesitate to comment on whether the performance will do the trick for you... low lux mode on the 7xx series cams usually gives the camera better low light than most people's eyes. A small LED light with a dimmer also works wonders, a little light goes a long way with these cameras.

Download the manual, if this years models aren't posted yet, last years will probably be similar enough - there are ways to optimize these little cameras and squeeze a lot out of them, better to know at least where to poke before you go hands on so you can get an accurate impression - half the time I swear the "review" sites criticize a cam because they are clueless on how to operate it, you'll have better luck asking here!

I've used Sonys for a while, so that's the way I'd lean, but you could also look at Panasonics or Canon - both offer similar cameras in this price range, and there are DVi threads that will give you the low down on them.

You might take a gander at the "shooting with small handycams" thread here, and you'll have to decide whether you "need" a big cam for your shooting style, or to "impress" clients. I have no doubt that you will find the image capture capability of ANY current HD cam to be a big leap over your GL's...



As far as "bundling", let's just say some bundles will make you more, others will lose you money big time! I would NOT package two cameras together, the odds of finding another event videographer that "needs" a pair of cameras, especially "vintage" ones is not so good, IMO... but you probably should put together packages with the accessories you no longer need, that may help your value, as the accessories may not have much value on their own due to age, but will help make the cameras more attractive...


You might be surprised by how quickly 28MBps 60p video can get choppy on an even slightly "older" computer, so don't underestimate that component - my "aging" i7 desktop that handled 17MBps smoothly sometimes has trouble with it... I'm hoping to hang in a little longer since 4K is probably coming sooner rather than later!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, was more a speech term than an indication of your competence.

Do be careful though, I've played with smaller sony cameras in the past as was not impressed by the usability in full manual mode in a hurry. Yes it could be done, but not quickly. My guess is you'd end up relying on the automatics more than you think just because it is easier and quicker.

We have a Canon HF G10 that we no longer use very much. It has full manual controls via a dial and a button, and for the average enthusiast it's perfect. In a run & gun situation we and up sticking it on auto simply because it's too fiddly to change the manual settings quickly.

Also, touch screen can be both a blessing and a curse. It's nice to be able to point to something, but when you have tiny icons or 'tabs' in menus and then you need to scroll it's a lot slower than the same interface on the XF100 that has a joystick control.

If you're serious, you need to try it. There is also a danger (not offence intended!) that you could want the change enough that you will emotionally minimise / ignore the negatives in user interface only to regret it later. I've done it myself, and yes I've come to regret it!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Well, I have a pair of sony cx730's, a pair of 550d's, a xh-a1 and a sony nex ea50, if you would tell me I was only allowed to carry just one type of camera with me to shoot a wedding which one I would choose? It would be the cx730's. I"d only would use one beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shoulder mount for one camera and have 2 tripods with me and a bunch of small and cheap audio recorders and I"m good to go. Minimal budget, maximal return and good image quality and sound.

The top of the line Sony' handicams are very good, they are as good in low light as my 550d's and nex-ea50 with fast lenzes. They have a wide angle lens that goes wider then most much more expensive fixed lens camera's, they have a stabiliser function that will give tripod like footage handheld, their auto focus is excellent, even in low light and the footage is sharp enough, sharper then my large sensor camera's and they even have a build in videolight.

They are not perfect, no, and especially manually controll is limited but the small wheel in front you could manually run exposure with and with touch screen change other parameters, like just pressing where you want the camera to focus, or using face detect or just use the screen to lock and change focus manually. It does take a lot longer to make adjustments through your screen, especially compared to a professional camera but for what I paid for it, the ease of use, the quality they output and the mobility you have with such small devices they where the best investement I made for doing weddings. Also, no need to worry about not looking professional, that just between the ears and once you get over that you will notice your clients will only remember you for what you eventually deliver or put online, not what you used to shoot their wedding.

If you want to see what you can do with these camera's, just pm me and I"ll send a link.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Noa hits it on the head - would you rather have a camera with lots of controls that you have to fiddle with, or a camera with limited manual controls that runs reliably in "auto"? Controls are great when you have the time to set things, but in "live fire", I'd rather not HAVE to worry about overriding the camera to get acceptable image quality - yes, I want to have the option, but how much time do you really have when there's one shot at capturing the moment... I'm willing to admit that a camera with good design and firmware can probably beat me to the punch on making needed adjustments.


The wild card on that 650 is that smaller sensor, IMO, and I don't think there's much info on it since the model is new. If you can compare to a CX760 or PJ760 (or the PJ710 with no viewfinder), I think that would be a valid crosscheck before you make a decision. "Newer" may or may not mean better, and sometimes "last years model" may provide a good option.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

I have been using small cameras for years at weddings, and currently have three Panasonic SD700s. The picture quality is excellent and low light performance sees better than my eyes, with solid blacks and good colour.

I don't get noticed with a small camera and that is exactly what I want at a wedding. Automatoc adjustment is way better than older cameras although manuasl are there for when I want. The small cameras also give the ability to move very quickly between shots which I find invaluable and sound quality very good when using an external mic.

I can't think of any advantages at all with using a big camera at a wedding, certainly not with my way of working. If picture quality is good enough for you and your clients, then size does matter - keep it small.

Roger

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Hey Peter! Good to see you are still here! Hope all is well. Thanks for your input as usual. I will absolutely check out that site so thanks for posting.

In terms of what I "need"...it's a tough one. I am "just" a documentary style videographer and I throw is some cool shots and creative editing in the Highlight reel just to stay current and stay on my toes creatively. But I have no ambitions of being the next Still Motion.

Currently I am just EMBARRASSED to be showing up with such antiquated equipment yet I have no real interest in sinking $6,000 -$8,000 into a "side job".

I need two cameras and all the "extra's" (extra batteries, lens filters, extra mem cards) and it all adds up. And truthfully who knows how many more years I am going to be doing this??

Lots to think about! Thanks again!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

LOTS of great info here for me to consider! Thanks. Will def check out some of those forums. And your right about my computer...and the thought of having to upgrade ALL that is daunting again!

Seriously considering taking the trade in value that he offered just for the simplicity of it! Will look into this further for sure! Thanks again!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

No problem. Misunderstood. As a woman in this industry I often come across a "Look here little lady" mentality. Sorry I jumped the gun! Thanks again for your insight!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

This post was very helpful! Thanks! Really giving me a LOT to consider. I will be sending you a PM and would love to see some footage. Might have some other questions for you also!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

I guess this ^^ is really my big decision isn't it?? The truth for me is this: I am at a crossroads. I either need to keep the GL2's and slowly be fazed out or I need to upgrade to camera's that aren't going to bankrupt me or require I remortgage my house and squeeze out a few more years.

My filming/editing is strong. People hire me because I do good work and 75% of my business is word of mouth. I only film 12- 18 weddings per year. And frankly I'm just not ready to throw in the towel yet. I still love the work and while I know I have a few years left in me I don't want to purchase $3,000 camneras to stay current.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Again...great points! Thanks!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Hi Kelsey,

Everyone will have their own opinion on what camera to get, for various reasons. Personally, while I am very impressed with the images from some of the new tiny cams, I could never use one as a MAIN camera, especially for run-and-gun situations like weddings. I've always used hand-held cameras, such as Sony VX-2000 and FX-7, which are reasonably sized and also have a lot of manual controls, which I find a necessity with the constantly changing lighting and other issues we encounter.

I do have a Canon HV-20 which is much smaller than my Sony cams, and I use this as a B-roll or "baclony cam". The image is excellent, on par with the larger 3-chip Sony FX-7 main camera, but its lack of manual controls make it totally unsuitable for me as a main camera. There is not time to fiddle with menus or joysticks when I need to change settings on the fly to get a shot.

I have been looking for a new main camera and the one I would buy today is the Panasonic AC-90. It has the same general size I'm used to, and manual rings for zoom, focus, and iris that I feel more comfortable having. Also has XLR audio with volume controls, dual-recording slots for extended record time or backup mode (record to both cards at once). Yes, it has small chips but the gain is said to be incredibly clean at high levels. The image stabilization also gets good marks.

Just my two cents ;-)

Jeff Pulera

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Haha, well.... 'Kelsey" is not a name I've come across before so I had no idea if you were male or female, and I gave up judging people by their names a very long time ago.

There's lots of awesome female photographers and videographers around and being female also gives you lots of advantages too. Why anyone in this industry puts people down based on gender is beyond me!

You'll likely notice things men won't (and visa versa), and of course it's likely you don't have to leave the room while the bride gets ready!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

The only 'Kelsey' that I had heard of is the actor Kelsey Grammer the star of 'Frasier'. However looking in Wikipedia I must have been going round with my eyes shut all these years ignoring the many Kelseys that there are around

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

I named my daughter Kelsey back in 1995. Can't say why necessarily, was just going through the lists of names and liked that one. Didn't want to use something that was so common at the time like Ashley or Nicole or Sarah, or whatever (no offense if that is your name). Being a "Jeff" born in the 1960s, my name is terribly common in my age group. I had one class in school with 4 Jeffs in the same small room!

Jeff Pulera

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Apparently the female version of the name is Kellsey? My mon named me from a novel she was reading at the time. I grew up in a small town and my name was NOT common. I was an adult before I met another Kelsey.

But yes I doubt you would have guessed or known I was female based on my name :)

And yes, happy to report that my gender often gets me the golden ticket into the room the bride is getting dressed in ;-)

Lots to think about. Going to go look at all my options this weekend. Still so confused :(

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

The ac90 is also a good option, especially at it's price point where you get a lot of camera for the money.

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

So in terms of computer needs...
I am currently working on an HP with 8G's of Ram and a quad core proccesor. Will that be enough? I use Premier Pro for editing. This is fine for my DS footage but will it be enough for HD??

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

what type of quad core?

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Great question! It says (I am reading off it) "Intel Core2 Quad inside"

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Can you also see what the processor speed is, could it a be that it's a q6600 processor?

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Kelsey,

I have to give you props for stretching a lot of life out of those GL's... but I think you've earned an upgrade!

Equipment upgrades can be daunting, sometimes even disappointing, that's why I tend to buy good used gear... if I don't like it, I can just turn it over to soemone else who probably will!

HD is probably "expected" now, where a couple years ago it wasn't as much a part of the public consciouness, and you WILL enjoy the improvements in image quality. Even over the FX7 and HV20 Jeff mentioned... those cameras were great, but now are probably 5+ years old? Technology moved farily fast, but we are probably now on the cusp of 4K cameras, and "full HD" may not see a lot of further development, though the equipment as it is, is quite capable. You could probably buy any camera introduced in the last 2-3 years and have a solid investment for the next few years.


You haven't mentioned any "big chip" cameras like a DSLR, so I think the advice has run to traditional video cameras, but the DSLR's and such open up some creative possibilities - I know I shoot both stills and video, and am comfortable with the manual aspects of my SLT cameras - I note Noa also has this "mix" - each type of camera has its strengths, and it "may" be worth considering?

The budget thing is always a bugger, but you CAN do it on a shoestring and still have very high quality image capture devices nowadays! I "downsized" and never regretted it or felt it hindered anything, I've added SLT's to the mix, the biggest camera I've got is a VG20, and I'm seriously debating where it fits in... great machine, but probalby NOT needed for a docu weding!

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

you can check it by pressing the windows button, then click on configuration screen, then device manager and then select processor. (Hope I translated right as I have a Dutch OS.)

Re: Upgrade neccesary for weddings?
 

Ok I followed your directions and it says: Intel (R) Core (TM)2 Quad CPU Q9300 @2.50Ghz

Actually...It has this 4 times..so does that mean it's 10Ghz in total??

It's Latin to me! Does that give you any more info? Thanks for all your help!