Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

You are 100% correct. Everything in your marketing, material, and language should be short and on a 6th grade level and your story illustrates why, perfectly. You want what you say to have an emotional impact so they buy, rather than them having to stop and think about what a word means. For anyone interested in learning more, get the book "Words That Work."

Also, I always thought of cinematographers as the guys who are certified/licensed/whatever and part of a guild.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Funny Craigslist ads here in the northeastern part of US. As an example:
Cinematographers needed for upcoming social events, baptisms, sweet 16, private parties, weddings etc.
Must have SOME previous experience shooting with DSLR cameras.
Must be creative, fun, polite, and punctual.

Hmmm.. cinematographer for baptisms..??
I guess videographers are no longer in demand.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

The word cinemtographer basically means some one who operates a large sensor camcorder / camera. Can handle manual lenses. Knows how to take large depth of field shots with bokeh etc.

I guess that's what the guy was implying.

Re: Cinematographer? what's that ?
 

It is fun to read all this. Different perspectives from different countries, different markets. Like I said earlier, your videos should speak for themselves. But it's a business and if you want to ignore google analytics for the sake of a name you want people to call you then you may end up sitting at home while some Videographer is out shooting all the Weddings.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Wow! I don’t think anybody here is hanging fake wall paper. This thread started because a VIDEOGRAPHER had to defend himself because the bride was looking for a CINEMATOGRAPHER.

Let’s ask why that happened? Words and terms change constantly. A lexicon evolves and is trendy. Where did the brides perception come from? Our own industry! My opinion….young guns, especially the DSLR crowd. Many of them I have met don’t even consider themselves videographers, it is to low for them. They call themselves film makers. Even if they have never been on a set with more than three paid hands.

Just last week I was on a gig and talking with the other camera operator. Like me, he has been in the industry for many years. Unlike me he is well known, highly respected, and a true master of our craft. The third operator came up and began talking. And did he ever talk, he was a kid straight out of a video certificate school and he knows it all! He handed us his business cards (I think the ink was still wet) and they said Director of Photography on them! He said next week he was making a film. When my friend asked what film he was working on he said, “it is a feature me and a friend are producing”. When he walked away I looked at my friend and we both started laughing. The dumb kid had walked up to two guys with more than 45 years of combined experience in the industry and spent the whole time telling us how great he is! Over the years, I have never worked on a feature film. I have been the camera operator for prime time television shows. I don’t have the gonads or arrogance to call myself a Director of Photography.

Just look at the kids in the video on this thread. That is exactly what I am talking about. They are in their 20s (if that) and they are posting videos DEFINING cinematography. REALLY??? I believe it is that type of thing that gave the bride the impression she needed a cinematographer, even though she does not know what one is.

So…if that is the way the language is trending, I see no reason why you wedding guys can’t use terms like “wedding films” and such.

And..I am not anti youth, just the opposite. I also love to teach, learn, and share knowledge. But some kids are much smarter than me. They already know it all and I am still learning!

End of rant....I know there is at least one other guy here that will understand that post. He is my brotha from a different motha!

Steve

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Steve, and there we have it !

Give it another 10-15 years ... when 8k ultra definition videography is the norm at weddings, brides won't be looking for videographers or cinematographers anymore ... it will be some new made up name like I don't know ... Ultraographer and Ultraography ... ha !

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Brotha Steven,
I wonder if he's the same guy I've met a few times around here?

Honestly who care what they call me? I'm a cameraman first and foremost and while I don't shoot film anymore, I did, back in the late 60s and early 70's. Super 8 and 8mm. So do my "home movies" qualify me as a cinematographer? I doubt it.
Ask Charles Papert what he is? He's done major motion pictures, TV series, and now is still doing one and unless I'm wrong, I don't think he's shooting film.

Like I said before, call me whatever....hell, call me Santa Claus...just spell my name right on the check!

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Well, I'll tell ya, guys. The old ways are the old ways, and I'm learning to put them behind me. I was legitimately getting paid work as a DP (aka cinematographer--in the US at least, they are entirely interchangeable terms) for three years shooting corporates, industrials and small commercials before I felt comfortable calling myself that--I used the term "lighting cameraman" up until that point. Somewhere around the RED and DSLR era (as social media was on the upswing, and everyone became their own hype man), the last bastion of humility disappeared and high school kids started calling themselves DP's. It is what it is.

As far as the term cinematographer appearing in the wedding world, that's just more of the same. Honestly, I've seen some very lovely work in that medium in the past few years and I wouldn't know where to draw the line against that.

As for shooting film--last time I did it was about 3 years ago. We shot with a 5DMKII in the morning and 35mm Panavision in the afternoon.

I don't know if I'll ever shoot film again.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

^^this

I've put some combined packages with a photographer who has a little studio in a busy area that is open to the public during business hours, and I was fronting the shop a couple of days a week for her a few months ago (but have since stopped), when...

A lady came into the shop wanting a package list for photos, I showed her ours and also our combined packages, mentioned that I'm our videographer and she asked, "oh - do you do cinematography as well or just videography?"

-_- fml srsly?

So I explained that I think it's splitting hairs - I explained my style, all but my cheapest package includes a single feature film-length video generally between 90 and 120 featuring montages etc., also with a very cinematic online teaser video, all filmed in sparkly HD and she was all like "OH OKAY, THANK YOU!!" and left never to be heard from again.

I have noticed that at least one other videographer in town has separate packages for videography and cinematography.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hi Bernie

I actually had a bride ask me "How many cinematographers do you have?" .. I patiently told her that a cinematographer is someone who directs the cameramen and is on movie sets not wedding shoots. I just couldn't help myself and to my surprise she emailed back and apologised for her "ignorance" and booked me!!

Probably she had been on a few other sites and found the word and it sounded good. I guess if she insisted on having me as a cinematographer then that's what I am.

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I think everyone should just start calling themselves cinematographers ... because I kid you not, i've seen a shed load of businesses where they combine ordinary videography with the odd 1 or 2 DSLR shot thrown in and these guys claim they are cinematographers.

To the regular bride/groom THEY ARE. And these companies that i've been watching are getting loads of business as they are regularly posting new videos online.

In my opinion the word 'cinematographer' is something that's just replaced the word videographer because these DSLR fan boys needed a easy way to describe their new large sensor video footage to average joe on the streets.

I still don't have the balls to call myself a cinematographer. I always say i'm a videographer but film in a contemporary cinematic and documentary style. So you get a mix of both. Because essentially that's what I do ... I try and get my large sensor beauty shots with depth of field etc but then have important stuff with focus everywhere using a proper video camera. So it's the best of both worlds.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Ha. ZING!

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Not to start a row... but...

DSLR does kind of give a bit of DOF like what you'd expect to see at...

the cinema.

Its a pretty good way to describe the effect.

Some people want 'cinematic'.

as opposed to a 90's low budget soap look...

...ZING


Like I said before on this thread. Words develop, and their meaning changes depending on people's perseption.

Not many people use the word gay to mean happy anymore.

lets not dictionary bash. Or job is to understand the consumer, and figure out what they want, even if it means decyphering their choice of words.

END OF

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I agree, add a bit of glidecam action to that and you are a cinematographer to your clients.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I still can't do it - I know and work with a number or 'real' cinematographers and I feel like I'd be denigrating their knowledge and expertise. I think you can turn the situation around and explain how using the term is a sign of inexperience not expertise

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

When it comes down to accurate meanings there are plenty of other "terms" that are not as they seem too!

"Professional" simply means that you are doing it for money ..it doesn't mean you are good! In fact as long as you charge a fee you are a professional ..good or bad.

There was an article a while back also about whether one is a professional, an expert or a specialist but all three don't have to mean a stunning end product or even an acceptable one.

In the same context I guess we could quite easily have good, mediocre and even terrible cinematographers? I notice that wedding photogs don't call themselves any fancy names ?? I wonder why they haven't latched on to names that might make marketing more productive?

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Just me, personally, I have been too hung up on titles, but as a business owner, I realize words convey an image in marketing my business.

About 10 years ago clients told us that our wedding videos were more like a movie than a wedding video, so we started using the phrase Artistic Wedding Cinematography as a way to describe and market our "wedding videos".

I think it's interesting that in some industries, like the news, a "photographer" is the camera operator, but in weddings, a "photographer" is the person who takes pictures. We all know that a "news photographer" is different than a "wedding photographer", much like a "cinematographer" is different than a "wedding cinematographer".

Do filmmakers have to use film? Do "wedding cinematographers" have to direct a crew on a film/movie set? I certainly do not consider myself a film/movie cinematographer, but when it is within my control, I do make the decisions and direct my crew on camera placements, movement, lenses, lighting and audio.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Actually I have a photographer friend who has changed the second word in her business name from 'photography' to 'photographics'. I guess fancier words means people think you're more knowledgeable?

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Somehow the word "video guy" sounds a lot better than "cinema guy", when being called out by the bride. Perhaps we've been in this business too long and got accustomed to that callout. " Where's that video guy, he should of' been here already."
I just had to put that in.!

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Your right on Chris! Back in the 80's the American Association of Magazine Photographers (I think it was them) came up with a definition for Professional Photographer. They decided that to qualify as a pro, at least 50% of your annual income had to be from taking pictures.

Also, to become a member of Canon Professional Services, not so many years ago, you had to submit "tear sheets" along with your application. Tear sheets are pictures you had published in magazines or other printed media. If you were not a published photographer you were not considered a pro by many people. Now a days Canon inventory's your equipment purchases for qualification.

Does anyone know of any such standards for us video guys besides a union card? Just curious.

Steve

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

There are no standards in this video or should I say cinematography business, especially in the wedding/event category. The best is a business card with the name of a video association one is a member of. This I am convinced of. One just goes to a camera store, picks up a few accessories with a DSLR, reads the instruction booklet, prints a batch of business cards with the "cinematographer" classification under the name and off they go advertising their expertise while taking potential clients away from the real pros that have worked hard to keep their reputation over the years. One does not have to take qualifying courses to be behind the camera and get the certification of a pro.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hey Arthur,

I understand your point but I don't worry about those guys. I have been at this for many years. I charge more than low budget hacks so I don't have to compete with them. I have clients that I call refugees. They tried going with the lowest bids and then came back to me glad to pay my fees because they got burned.

To me, the sad part is not the guys just starting out. Everyone has to start someplace. The real problem is that our economy is driving fees down because real pros are cutting rates just to get work. Everyone needs to eat and even corporate budgets are tight!

Steve

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

"The real problem is that our economy is driving fees down because real pros are cutting rates just to get work"

I know of many studios, photo and video business that either closed down or went to a home operation because of the overhead costs to maintain a commercial location. I know of 3 photo studios that used to average 100+ events a year 100+ video and 100 photo+,, charging reasonable, not cheap rates, that due to low ball competition were forced to either cut staff or lower their prices. I hear it all the time that maintain service and quality and don't budge on the pricing. That may work in some areas of the country but here in the northeast, it don't work that way. Granted, there are a few that are are still sticking to their guns but in reality I don't think they have over 30 events a year like that, I have been talking to a lot of videographers lately and the story from them is all the same. Couples don't want to or have the budget for a photo/video package like before. They don't even want a printed album anymore, the video cut down to a re-cap or highlight DVD without a full day coverage. Pricing average here for a full day coverage with editing is around $1200 give or take 100. In photography, without any printed matter, just a DVD of hi res JPG's is around $800 to 1000. I have long forgotten the days that I used to ask for $2500 for video shot on SD and delivered on VHS tape. And I used to get my price without any haggling. Funny thing is when you ask a stranger videographer how's business, they always say great and when you ask how many events they do and their average pricing, they make you feel like an undercharging peddler. Truth is, one needs to eat, I could otherwise sit and wait for the high rollers to sign and stick to my prices, but those clients are more few and far between. I may starve before the next one passes by.