Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

This is interesting. Last week I had a potential client that needed a "cinematographer" and not a videographer. I asked her if she knew the difference. She said that a cinematographer makes the capturing look more like film rather than video and that cinematographers are more artistic as well as more refined in what they do. She went on to say that she relates a videographer to videotape which is a thing of the past. Now after a lenghty discussion with her to straighten things up, which I eventually did with a lot of explaining, she booked. I thought to myself for a moment, who coined up that phrase/word of cinematographer in our recent past ? I have been a videographer for many years and even though the capturing is still done with a camera and lens, it is the medium and the presentation apparatus which has changed. Tape and tube vs media card and lcd/led screen. Does recent advancements in the hardware department make me a "cinematographer" instead of the lowly " videographer " ?
If there is a real difference between the 2 trades, please enlighten my ignorance, as I really do not have a clue.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I could be off but there is actually quite a bit of difference between a cinematographer and a videographer. A cinematographer heads the camera department on a production. Their primary responsibility is to capture a specific image that is dictated by the director. They are responsible for a lot of the planning and coordination of camera and lighting crews. I like to think of the cinematographer as someone who bridges the gap between the artistic vision and the technical details of capturing an aesthetic. It does not matter what the media is, video tape, digital image, film, whatever.

A videographer is someone who is more in line with capturing a specific event. It could be a wedding, concert, behind the scenes, but their primary focus will be more on capturing the event. That isn't to say that a videographer wouldn't be able to do what a cinematographer does, but most people don't really understand what a cinematographer does. Most people thing they are the ones behind the camera. They may be on a smaller production, but their first focus is on the planning of how to capture the image.

I've had it explained to me by cinematographers and directors that a good cinematographer is someone who can help you create a look an be able to repeat it. They also are like great chefs, they have never mixed two ingredients before but they have the skill and knowledge to have a very good idea of what it would taste like if they did. Cinematographers are kind of like that. They have a really good idea what you'll get when you setup and shoot a scene with different equipment.

At least that's one way to think of it.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

We've always seen references to cinematography on movie credits, etc. but not so for videography. So yes, I think people, in their minds, associate the word 'videography' with 'video camera'; whereas 'cinematography' is what George Lucas and Steven Spielberg do! If we are indeed producing professional quality wedding films with technical and artistic proficiency, we certainly may refer to ourselves as wedding cinematographers. That's how I see it anyway...

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hi Arthur

In the wedding industry it appears that Cinematography is being applied to the more creative...DSLR/slider/shallowDOF kind of production and videographer to the more documentary type of production.

I think we just find names to suit us and as far as I'm concerned a Cinematographer is someone that shoots on film stock (or used to in the old days) essentially for the big screen compared with videographers who worked for the TV networks and shot on tape.

Seriously, either or both could have or have no creative talent. On wedding forums I think the early guys who discovered they could shoot video on their DSLR's decided to call themselves "cinematographers" but then again that hardly specifies talent or skill ..it's only a name. I could be working as a toilet cleaner or if I prefer I could ALSO call myself a Sanitary Engineer ..but I'm still doing a good job and the same job.


Take your choice and use one or the other or even both !!

Chris.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Thanks everyone. I guess I am a videographer then. Just as I thought.
Then when someone advertises himself as a cinematographer willing to capture the wedding as a one man show, then he is really using a fancy name to glorify himself as a Spielberg. Am I right ?
Likewise a plumber can advertise and be referred as a water management engineer.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I'd say call yourself whatever you want. Your videos should speak for themselves. It's not like on a movie set the DP sits around taking photos. It's just a name and while there may be some validity to a more "filmic/artistic" look with someone who calls themselves cinematographer, most reasonable clients will focus on your work and not on what you call yourself. And it looks like that couple did just that so nice job! :)

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

i believe this explains it....

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I laughed so hard at that example video ... fantastic explanation in simple terms!

Most client's have an idea of what cinematography is and just like with any job title, it will mean a bit more or less to clients.

To me it's just about being a creative editor and about using certain shots that you generally only see in the movies rather than conventional tripod mounted, handheld video.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

From Wikipedia.
Decide what you want to call yourself then go from there. Hell as far as I'm concerned you can call me what ever you want just spell my name right on the check.

Cinematographer
A cinematographer (usually credited with the title director of photography, or DP) is the chief over the camera and lighting crews working on a film, and responsible for achieving artistic and technical decisions related to the image. The study and practice of this field is referred to as cinematography.
There are differences between the British and the American traditions as regards the role of the director of photography.
In the British system, the director of photography ("DOP"), sometimes credited as the lighting cameraman, is responsible for lighting the set and the visual look of the film, but has no final say over more purely camera operating-based visual elements such as framing. This system means that the director consults the lighting cameraperson for lighting and filtration, and the operator for framing and lens choices. "DOP" is the British and Canadian acronym for "director of photography".
In the American system, the camera operator and everybody else in camera department is subordinate to the DP, who, along with and next to the director, has the final word on all decisions related to both lighting and framing.
The cinematographer selects the film stock, lens, filters, etc., to realize the scene in accordance with the intentions of the director. Relations between the cinematographer and director vary; in some instances the director will allow the cinematographer complete independence; in others, the director allows little to none, even going so far as to specify exact camera placement and lens selection. Such a level of involvement is not common once the director and cinematographer have become comfortable with each other, the director will typically convey to the cinematographer what is wanted from a scene visually, and allow the cinematographer latitude in achieving that effect.

Videographer
Strictly speaking, a videographer is a person who works in the field of videography, video production — recording moving images and sound on video tape, disk, other electro-mechanical device. News broadcasting relies heavily on live television where videographers engage in electronic news gathering (ENG) of local news stories. On a set, in a television studio, the videographer is usually a camera operator of a professional video camera, sound, and lighting. As part of a typical electronic field production (EFP) television crew, videographers usually work with a television producer. However, for smaller productions (e.g. corporate and event videography), a videographer often works alone with a single-camera setup or in the case of a multiple-camera setup, as part of a larger television crew with lighting technician, grips and sound operators.
Typically, videographers are distinguished from cinematographers in that they manage smaller, event scale productions (commercials, documentaries, live events, short films, training videos, weddings), differing from individualized large production team members. Due to reduced budget compared to full-length feature productions, videographers typically use electro-mechanical cameras while cinematographers record images on film. The advent of digital cinematography, however, has blurred this distinction.
Further, it is becoming more and more common for people to talk about "filming" with a camcorder even though no "film" is involved. Similarly, the term "taping" is often used (for lack of a better term) though no tape (or film) is involved, where live video is recorded directly to video tape, a direct to disk recording using a hard disk recorder, or a tapeless camcorder using flash media.
Videographers maintain and operate a variety of video equipment, edit footage, and stay up to date with technological advances.
The videographer is responsible for the maintenance and operation of the satellite, maintaining and repairing video walls, video editing in various formats, creating graphics for the speciality channels of cruise events information, shooting and editing video tapes, and broadcast programming the broadcast room (such as tuning a TV & radio).

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

As always the perfectionist Don!!

So technically if you have the camera in your hands you are not a cinematographer at all unless you have 3 underlings working under you and you are calling the shots. Unlikely at a wedding!

Yeah as long as they throw lots of money in my lap they can call me what they like.

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Difference?

Marketing

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

You could say that videography is recording what happens whereas cinematography is telling stories with film.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Cinematographer to a client = do some slowmo, use a glidecam, use a slider, get some shallow dof shots, assure you get clear enough sound and slap on some black bars on your video, euhm cinematic video. I do it all the time but I"m not calling myself a cinematographer, I just let the client decide themselves when they see my demo's. Words are cheap, I don't try to convince my clients that way, they either like or don't like my way of shooting, if one would want a specific shootingstyle I would tell them that what they see is what they get, if that is not "cinematic" enough to them they can go shop somewhere else.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Like it or not - my company tag line is this -

"Not simply a recording - Your special day deserves cinema".

I think its pretty clear what I'm trying to convey.

Thats the only time I use the term, mostly for SEO reasons. Clients online are still by and large searching for 'videos' and 'videographers'. So for that reason I call myself a videographer!

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I hear the term more often these days and I've had a bride ask if I was.. but I assured her that I was not and neither was the prepubescent teenager with the trendy camera who had mentioned it first.

Its being used as a market term but it dilutes real meaning and it really bugs me.I'm a member of the Australian Cinematographers Society but would never use the term to describe what I do. I'm happy to call myself a DOP or lighting cameraman if I'm working on a short film but I'm so far removed from a 'real cinematographer' that I would never dream of using the term.

Don's Wikipedia excerpt is on the money but I hate the term videographer

I personally use Video Producer, it fits for me.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

People getting all hot and bothered about the 'real' definition are missing the point.

A word becomes redefined or co-defined when it becomes commonly used in a new way

Gay means happy, now its widely accepted to mean homosexual also.

The only thing that matters is - are you or are you not, what a bride defines a cinematographer as.

And I think we all know plenty well what the new meaning of the word is, in this context.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I still like Paul's term "Video Producer" as it's technically correct but lifts you out of the Uncle Bob category without making you sound overly important.

Even if like Noa I was putting a lot of slomo, slides and shallow DOF into a wedding production I still would rather not call it a "cinema production" as to me cinema productions are not shown on a TV but shown on the big screen and not many brides watch their DVD on a 50' x 30' screen with 100 handpicked guests so it's a video production.

Of course if calling your effort a cinematography masterpiece helps rake in the sales then I guess there is no law against calling your product whatever you wish to, as long as it works for you and you make money..isn't that the bottom line in the end?

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

If I use slowmotion I only put it in my trailers, my trailers are also more "cinematic" looking then the final longer version, those are more documentary with some cinematic elements inbetween like glidecam, shallow dof, slidershots etc. so there is definitely a difference between my trailers and the longer versions which is something I tell and show my clients when they visit.

My clients almost always want a trailer but they want to have the longer "I want to see it all" version, not with a story, just a document of the day, the trailer however is by far the most popular tool for advertisment and reaching new clients when they place it on their facebook account and it seems that those cinematic elements I was referring to (I have had clients commenting when they see my glidecam shots; "That's like cinema") have a big influence on getting their interest. That's why I spend enough time to building trailers and incorporating elements that clients would refer to as cinematic as it does seem to sell.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I guess I was a "cinematographer" after all. according to that video sample.
It also sounds much more better than the common, uncreative "videographer"
Wow ! now I can change my business card to reflect my new found status.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I agree with this!

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

+1 for Marketing.

Wow, interesting. I understand almost every point made here. And went through all this myself at one time. I literally “produce” corporate audio visual events and I “produce” videos. But for many years I was reluctant call myself a Producer. For two reasons, I do not like the Hollywood connotation it conjures up and I did not want to sound arrogant. Finally, it was one of my clients (whom I have produced many shows for) that scolded me and said never be afraid to say what you are. He is also a marketing genius, I am not. So, for several years now, my business cards and e-mail signature do say Producer under my name. It was the right thing to do. I have only benefited from it. My clients hire me to produce their videos, it was stupid of me to be afraid of calling myself a Producer.

Also, look at this thread. Here we are, the guys working in the industry, and there is a great deal of confusion here among you guys about the terms. I suggest you not sweat the small stuff. There is a lot of grey that could be debated. Choose what works best for you from a marketing perspective (as mentioned). I may be out of line with this suggestion since I am not a wedding guy but recently I think the term “wedding films” is perfectly appropriate for what you guys do. Even though there is no film, who cares. Don’t sell yourself short. If Arthur would have had that term anywhere in his materials he probably never would have had the conversation with the client in the first place that started this thread. You give them what they want, be what they want. We should not have to defend ourselves as videographers, I am proud of that. But this whole conversation is about PERSEPTION and definition. The guy that masters perception in a marketing sense will be the guy with the most clients.

I have learned my clients like having a “Producer”. It was my hang up not theirs. I earn my money, and I know what to call myself, they are hiring me to produce for them.

Steve

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Fun discussion, and I'll jump in. My 2 cents go to Kren as I feel he pretty much summed it up, with the caveat that I also agree with others who point out that the definitions are soft -- and changing over time -- so there is a lot of latitude to use the term you wish and not be "wrong."

A quick look-up indicates that cinema is the older term for "motion picture" and doesn't necessarily define the medium on which the motion picture is recorded; derived from Greek or Latin kinema, "to move." Most of us still commonly think of cinema as "film" but perhaps that's just common parlance since that's all there was for a long time. M-W defines video as motion picture recorded electronically:

Cinema - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Online Etymology Dictionary
Video - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Still, to me even the current M-W definition of video falls behind the times. As was alluded to earlier in this thread, many of us think of video as analog (video)tape recordings. So where do movies "filmed" with, say, a Canon C300 fit into this labeling scheme, as is the case for parts of the current Ron Howard "film" Rush? I don't think many of us would call it video. It is certainly artistic motion picture. The original definition of cinema still works great.

Some would object to the word film, but we're getting to the point where many people are starting to ignore the medium/format and accept it as simply meaning cinema. With celluloid nearly dead (I know, I know...Monty Python comes to mind, "I'm not dead yet..."), the labels of cinematographer and filmmaker are gradually becoming synonymous, at least to my way of thinking.

But doesn't it sound odd to say, "I just finished the short cinema I've been working on"? Language is a peculiar thing, eh?

What do I call myself? Any of the above. It depends on the circumstance and with whom I'm communicating.
:-)

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Someone using who is able to use basic techniques to make a cinematic style wedding video does not qualify for the label of 'Cinematographer as far as I am concerned. If a big Hollywood studio were looking for a cinematographer for their forthcoming blockbuster movie, would you fit the Bill?

Unfortunately the modern requirement for status and peer admiration seems to dumb everything down to a meaningless label. The local pub has a cook preparing mediocre pub meals, but he seems to like to be called a chef. Someone has a couple of appearances on a reality show and is billed as a star. I ran a small recording studio alongside my home for many years and was regularly described in the local paper as a Music Entrepreneur. I have a friend who plays in a good band who describe themselves a a professional touring rock band, whereas they are a mixture of office staff, farmers and builders who play in pubs around the county. They would never describe themselves as amateur because it doesn't sound so upmarket.

I'm a video producer of small scale corporate, music and celebratory videos. If you want to see me as a cinematographer or professional film maker then who am I to complain :-).

Roger

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

This is actually a very interesting thread and brings up some very good points. I do not shoot weddings. I do mostly theatrical events, concerts and corporate videos for "paying" jobs. But I am also working at becoming a cinematographer in the movie industry sense of the title and have worked on several shorts and feature films. For me, just because you use a DLSR, shoot with shallow depth of field, and use a slider or jib, does not make you a cinematographer. It goes way beyond making a pretty picture and doing a bunch of fancy editing and FX.

You can say what you call yourself is only a matter of marketing but I believe that you should respect the craft that others have worked so hard to develop. Change the situation for all you wedding videographers. Would you be happy if some kid with his new Canon Rebel DSLR took out an add saying they were a wedding videographer just because they have shot their cousins wedding? Yes they would produce sub par videos and some people will get ripped off and be very upset about it. Some people will never know however that they received below acceptable services. But, in the end the entire wedding video industry will be labeled as an industry that contains unprofessional people. For those of you who have worked so hard to truly turn your wedding videos into wonderful art, would you be ok with other people who have not taken the time to work and learn to simply say "it's only a matter of a title and it doesn't matter, it's only marketing."

I only use cinematographer or Director of Photography to describe what I'm doing when I am truly fulfilling the role. Other times I go by camera operator or video producer.

As always, that's just my POV.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

If you have never used lighting to stage a controlled scene (no matter to what end) to record on video, then you're simply abusing the terms "cinematographer" or a "director of photography" in my opinion. That I think needs to be the distinction, since everything is technically "video" now.

I see a lot of "Cinematography" reels that feature nothing but outdoor event coverage, and so if you actually need someone to stage an interview, or a scene, or something else that is not something that is automatically what it needs to look like on camera, you would do well to stay away from those individuals.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I actually don't mind what title other people use, it's easy to use expensive words but at the end your videos cant lie, they will show if you have got what it takes to be called a cinematographer, and even then, it would have a different meaning to many. I always say; show, don't tell.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

It is true Noa that in the end your work would have to stand on its own. But, in an industry such as wedding videos, the potential clients may only use your industry's services once. When they have a bad experience and their friends are contemplating whether hiring a videographer is worth it, and they ask their friends who have had a bad experience, they will likely say save your money, spend it elsewhere. Other industries have faced this. You may not care what you are called but it does have an affect on others and the industry in which they work.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

And if you want to abandon the artistic or professional labels, jump on the academic bandwagon as a visual historian.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

And then we have the issue about what potential brides want to call us. When a bride is looking for someone to film/video/produce their wedding what would they type into "Google" ???

If the most common term used by brides is videographer then that's what I want to be called ...I very much doubt that brides would search for "wedding cinematography" ...it's more likely to be "wedding video"

Does anyone know what the most common terms brides use to look for us when presented with a blank Google page??

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hmm... Looking at Google Keyword Planner, here's some average monthly searches relevant to New South Wales:

video editing software - 1900
video production Sydney - 720 hits
wedding video Sydney - 590 (does that mean 590 couples, or 10 couples, plus a lot of videographers checking out the competition over and over again?)
wedding videography Sydney - 480
wedding videography - 390
video production - 320
video editing - 320
videographer - 260
wedding videos - 260
wedding video - 260
videographer Sydney - 210
Sydney wedding video - 210
wedding movies - 170
videography - 170
wedding videographer Sydney - 170
wedding videos Sydney - 170
production companies Sydney - 170
Sydney video production - 140
corporate video - 140
corporate video production Sydney - 140
wedding photography and video Sydney - 140
videography Sydney - 110
corporate video production - 110
corporate video Sydney - 110
film production companies Sydney - 90
wedding videographer - 90
production company - 90
film production - 70
tv production companies Sydney - 70
production company Sydney - 70
production companies - 70
video marketing - 70
video production company - 50
music video production Sydney - 50
film production companies - 50
media production - 50
Sydney production companies - 50
movie production companies - 40

In comparison:

wedding cinematography - 90
wedding films - 30
cinematic wedding video - 20
wedding cinema - 10
wedding cinematographer - 10

which is the same as if you misspell a keyword:

weeding video - 10

To be honest, I've got "cinematography" in my business name; and probably I'm going to keep it there, though this thread has given me pause. I think what I do is different enough from traditional video that I want to highlight this to brides. And the plan, anyway, is eventually do more narrative and music video, and work as a proper DP. Of course, if I'm not actually lighting "scenes" at weddings -- and most of the time, I'm not -- then maybe "cinematography" is a bit of misnomer.

I do know that "cinematography" is not a great thing for wedding marketing. I was doing a bridal expo recently, and noticed at least one couple walking past, reading the sign, and trying to pronounce it, as if it was unfamiliar -- "Cine... cinema... cinematography." Then at least another person say to their friend, "Cinematography. What's that?" And then another person who seemed to be put off by the name, saying to their friend and walking on before I got a word in, "I don't need anything high quality. I just want a basic video. Alex from work can do it." Consider also that the most well-known cinematic video companies don't use the word, but go instead for something like "Films".

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hi Adrian

Yep brides are simple creatures when it comes to technical terms so keywords like wedding video will always score higher than cinematography. However that doesn't mean you can't have it in your name or website ..just let brides hit on simple words rather.

At lot of hits will be "checking out the competition" of course and you will always get more hits from words like "video production" as that covers a huge genre not only weddings.

What really frustrates me is brides (most of them actually!) that, when asked where they found you, say "On the Internet" ... "Uh where on the internet?" "No idea..I was just looking and saw your site"

Not very helpful when deciding what works and what doesn't but I think they do tend to stay with simple terms to find you and from there you can lay it on with the cinematic stuff to impress them!

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Chris, you may want to add Google Analytics to your site to see from where traffic is coming and where it goes within your site and how long it stays there. You may be using it already, but if not, I think you may get some answers to "where on the internet".

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

In "google trends" you can compare keywords, interesting to see what triggers the most searches.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Used that for some years, a very valuable tool to see what traffic comes my way, that way I learned that 75% of all new visits come from facebook.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Here are the results of my Google adwords keywords impressions:

wedding video 1,163
wedding videos 832
wedding videographer 55
videography 49
wedding videography 39
videography for wedding 30
wedding videographers 16
videography wedding 14
wedding cinematography 13

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I also found that "wedding video" outstrips all of them by far soooo....

We are best known then as Wedding Video Producers, regardless of whether we create run of the mill documentary DVD's or earth shattering cinematic masterpieces.

If the bride pulls the case from her stack of mostly unwatched DVD's she is also more than likely to say "Wanna watch my wedding video?"

Seriously guys, does it REALLY matter what you call yourself?? As long as the orders keep coming in I certainly don't mind what I am called.

Chris

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I think this falls under the same category as the topic started a while back if you should say "we" or "I" when you refer to your company if you work solo, you could also call your company a media production house to make it sound bigger as it is or refer to cinematic to make it sound you provide a much higher level of production. There is no law that would prevent you from calling yourself anything you like, but you will raise high expectations for your clients and won't be able to deliver and this eventually will lead to you going out of business.Brides will complain if they have received something which was not up to their expectations but it won't be the whole industry that will suffer from that but only the person that has worked for them, he will get bashed in wedding fora, I have seen it happen on local wedding fora in my country.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

I like that, nice

it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what the bride calls you - I just think it shows a lack of understanding and a lack of respect of the skills & experience that a cinematographer has.

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what the bride calls you - I just think it shows a lack of understanding and a lack of respect of the skills & experience that a cinematographer has.

To me is seems the same as buying a degree certificate from a phoney university and framing it on your wall :- (

Its a shame the term has been hijacked for marketing purposes. When you are competent with wedding video you are a craftsman, you are not a cinematographer.

Pete

Re: Cinematographer ? what's that ?
 

Hi Pete

+1 to that from me too!! If I call myself something fancy it doesn't mean that my product is better than the guy who "just makes wedding videos"

Sadly advertising and marketing tends to be full of exaggeration to lure the client to you. The problem there is that when you deliver the wedding video and the bride doesn't see it as a cinematic masterpiece then the backlash starts. I would rather be upfront with brides and also I never restrict my samples to my very, very best that was shot last year cos you are unlikely to be able to replicate the effort. If her end product looks as least (or better) than what she has seen of your work then there is never an issue!

I'm a firm believer in not making promises I cannot keep and calling myself a cinematographer is one of them.

Chris