Do brides want shallow depth of field?

Clive McLaughlin · February 26th, 2014, 03:00 AM

I think the above question could be a separate thread.

I know a few people who provide products that are only 40minutes in full - but I can't imagine any clients NOT wanting the full speeches. So I don't know how they find clients who want what they offer.

I've recently proposed to condense my ceremony footage down to 20minutes and nearly all my clients opted for it...

But as somebody once told me, selectively removing parts can be almost as time consuming as leaving it all in an checking through it - boring as it is!

Chris Harding · February 26th, 2014, 04:58 AM

Hey Clive

So how is 40 minutes called shortform when the only thing you are NOT filming would be stuff like congrats after the ceremony, going around the tables and dancing which might add maybe 30 minutes tops to your short form video? To watch 40 mins or 70 minutes to me is long form surely??

I think Danny does a 20 minute short form video only so maybe he can give a rough idea of what he fits into 20 minutes?

I think 20 minutes and under could genuinely be called highlights/ short form but to me anything over that is getting close to long form. I did a wedding 3 weeks ago with 10 speeches .. if one had to include speeches in the short form that alone would chew up 40 minutes!! (allowing a tiny 4 minute average speaker time)

I'm confused where the line is drawn ...is it 20 minutes or less??

Chris

George Kilroy · February 26th, 2014, 06:16 AM

Hi Chris. I'm dipping in again now that we're a bit more settled and connected on our own broadband.

Surely the terms of short form/long form/ documentary are self defined. There is no industry or consumer standard that clients refer to when choosing a video. This industry as you know is comprised of a myriad of individuals who have self-appointed ourselves as video professionals. There is no trade body or guild that we have to belong to and sign-up to a set of standards. We have all established our terms, definitions and ways of working based on our own preferences and experience.

Clive McLaughlin · February 26th, 2014, 06:27 AM

Here's my product - I don't call it either long form or documentary but its certainly longer than 40minutes.

Bridal prep and Church gathering - 10mins
Ceremony - 40/50mins
After church - 5mins
Afternoon - 10/15mins
Speeches - 30/40/50mins
Dancing - 15/20mins

Total Anywhere from 1hr 45 to 2hrs 30mins generally

I then do a highlights trailer of 4/5minutes.

Chris Harding · February 26th, 2014, 07:39 AM

Hi Clive

Thanks for that..that's basically what my DVD's come out to and I figured that was long form. I'm just curious to figure out what Danny uses in his videos which are normally on 20 minutes?

George!!! Great to hear from you again and nice that you are settled ..I can see a few French wedding videos in the making once you get a full grasp of the language!! I assume your trusty JVC 700 is there with you??

Chris

George Kilroy · February 26th, 2014, 09:42 AM

Hi Chris, les français est à venir sur, but I have no intention of getting back into weddings either here or back in UK. In fact I turned down one for last weekend and turned away two enquiries this week for future dates. I'm more interested in weeding now than weddings. I am getting as much if not more pleasure repairing our leaky 200 year old french barn as I did slaving over a warm computer. That said I am still keeping my hand and eye in, I've left most of my shooting kit back in UK as I am traveling back every few weeks to do the training & induction videos that are now the mainstay of my video work. Seems to be working out at the moment so long as cheap airlines keep flying from my local airport.
I've had to pass my theater and schools work to a former local competitor who I'm friendly with as quick turn-around and bulk duplication and distribution is just not feasible. C'est la vie as we say here in La Belle France.

Roger Gunkel · February 26th, 2014, 09:44 AM

Clive and Chris - your end product timings also sound the same as mine, which I describe as long form documentary.

Roger

Kyle Root · February 26th, 2014, 12:37 PM

I helped out some friends of mine at a Bridal fair in Tennessee over the weekend, and I as I was talking to the brides to be, several of them specifically mentioned that they really liked the short form videos and not full length ones.

I just thought that was interesting.

There really is no right or wrong in all this, it's just a matter of knowing what your client wants from you, and then working to deliver that, if you can.

Roger Gunkel · February 26th, 2014, 01:14 PM

There definitely seems to be more interest in cinematic short form in the US generally. Perhaps it is more of an instant gloss product that fits in with what appears to be a more showy wedding industry than certainly the UK has.

Roger

Clive McLaughlin · February 26th, 2014, 02:38 PM

But back to the question - the people who deliver short form (I mean 30/40minutes) are they editing and removing some of the speeches?

I can't get my head around any bride being OK with us taking editorial decisions over what parts of speeches to cut.

But some people surely must.

Does anyone on here cut some of the speeches for their end product???

Robert Benda · February 26th, 2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

But back to the question - the people who deliver short form (I mean 30/40minutes) are they editing and removing some of the speeches?

I can't get my head around any bride being OK with us taking editorial decisions over what parts of speeches to cut.

But some people surely must.

Does anyone on here cut some of the speeches for their end product???

Clive, usually our speeches aren't as long as yours seem to be. It varies by region, of course, but for example, in my area, speeches are 5-15 minutes total, depending on number of people. Usually Best Man, Maid of Honor; often a parent and/or bride/groom will speak, too. So 2-4 people usually speak, and 10 minutes or less TOTAL.

When I do highlight style videos, I just use quotes, the best parts, of speeches. Rarely all of it. If the speech is REALLY short (as some often are) then it's rarely got anything worth showing, so I show it for the sake of the person rather than them having said anything of value. If it's longer, then it's harder to trim, but choices often have to be made.

I can do this precisely because I provide BOTH a highlight style (15-20 minute) video AND long form (60-90 minutes) so they can go see the full speeches if they want.

Brendan McElwaine · February 27th, 2014, 10:32 AM

I currently deliver long-form but my aim is to eventually deliver short-form. If/when that happens, I would also include a separate disc/usb stick with uncut speeches and uncut(ish) ceremony. From watching Stillmotion stuff over the years I believe that's what they do also.

Nigel Barker · March 2nd, 2014, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

But back to the question - the people who deliver short form (I mean 30/40minutes) are they editing and removing some of the speeches?

I can't get my head around any bride being OK with us taking editorial decisions over what parts of speeches to cut.

But some people surely must.

Does anyone on here cut some of the speeches for their end product???

Those who claim they deliver short form only generally will also deliver the speeches & service in full on a separate disk. I'm betting that even those who come up with pretentious twaddle like they won't include the ceremony if it doesn't fit with their artistic vision still deliver the traditional documentary style speeches & ceremony

Steve Bleasdale · March 2nd, 2014, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan McElwaine

I currently deliver long-form but my aim is to eventually deliver short-form. If/when that happens, I would also include a separate disc/usb stick with uncut speeches and uncut(ish) ceremony. From watching Stillmotion stuff over the years I believe that's what they do also.

When i deliver short form which is now rare in Liverpool as they seem to want everything possible for their money, we deliver about 25/30 minutes, then straight after the short form film i include their bespoke trailer, then include the full speeches and full ceremony all on the same disc, that way they can see the artistic short form which i love editing and then they can view their trailer and then at their leisure they can view their speeches and ceremony. Simples. steve

Wedding Videography & Photography Cheshire Liverpool | Capture Your Moments Weddings | Home

Peter Riding · March 2nd, 2014, 07:54 AM

There seems to be a subconscious dread afflicting both videographers and clients that the yet to be shot wedding video may be hours and hours of unwatchable junk. Rather like they fear that when it comes to stills that the posed photo session will be 2 hours of forced cheesy smiling at the camera.

The reality is anything but. In the UK at any rate.

The great majority of weddings are civil ceremonies and these will seldom be more than 20 minutes. 30 minutes tops even if you leave the cams running throughout the register signing. And within those 20 minutes are lots of golden moments which cannot be done justice by just including a few seconds - or even worse time-shifting the audio.

Some speeches may be marathons but typically they also will seldom be over 20 minutes in total. And again lots of golden moments including guest reactions.

What else? 2 minutes of pre-wedding tops - unless you bring your slider along in which case you'll really bore the socks off the audience :- ) 2 minutes photoshoot highlights. 2 minutes reception scene setting. 2 minutes cocktail hour highlights. 3 minutes 1st dance. What else? Oh yes 200 minutes torturing unwilling guests into making meaningless messages :- ) 200 minutes getting in everyones way with your steadycam on the dance floor whilst you dazzle them with a light late in the evening :- )

So what is so ..... well ..... long about longform? And which bits do the clients really not want to have for their family history? Newsflash to shortform clients: your friends do NOT want to watch your wedding video whether its 5 minutes or 5 hours. They may tolerate a bit if they think they might see themselves. But thats about it. So don't worry about them; just focus on what you'll want for the future.

Unfortunately for us the vendors all these things like shortform and shallow depth of field are highly seductive for clients at the research stage. Even though we know in our heart of hearts that longform is where its at in the longrun. Editing shortform etc can be fun but thats for our benefit not really for theirs.

Discuss :- )

Pete

p.s. I'll just put my tin helmet on!

February 26th, 2014, 03:00 AM	#61
Clive McLaughlin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Belfast Posts: 823	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? I think the above question could be a separate thread. I know a few people who provide products that are only 40minutes in full - but I can't imagine any clients NOT wanting the full speeches. So I don't know how they find clients who want what they offer. I've recently proposed to condense my ceremony footage down to 20minutes and nearly all my clients opted for it... But as somebody once told me, selectively removing parts can be almost as time consuming as leaving it all in an checking through it - boring as it is!

February 26th, 2014, 04:58 AM	#62
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Hey Clive So how is 40 minutes called shortform when the only thing you are NOT filming would be stuff like congrats after the ceremony, going around the tables and dancing which might add maybe 30 minutes tops to your short form video? To watch 40 mins or 70 minutes to me is long form surely?? I think Danny does a 20 minute short form video only so maybe he can give a rough idea of what he fits into 20 minutes? I think 20 minutes and under could genuinely be called highlights/ short form but to me anything over that is getting close to long form. I did a wedding 3 weeks ago with 10 speeches .. if one had to include speeches in the short form that alone would chew up 40 minutes!! (allowing a tiny 4 minute average speaker time) I'm confused where the line is drawn ...is it 20 minutes or less?? Chris

February 26th, 2014, 06:16 AM	#63
George Kilroy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 699	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Hi Chris. I'm dipping in again now that we're a bit more settled and connected on our own broadband. Surely the terms of short form/long form/ documentary are self defined. There is no industry or consumer standard that clients refer to when choosing a video. This industry as you know is comprised of a myriad of individuals who have self-appointed ourselves as video professionals. There is no trade body or guild that we have to belong to and sign-up to a set of standards. We have all established our terms, definitions and ways of working based on our own preferences and experience.

February 26th, 2014, 06:27 AM	#64
Clive McLaughlin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Belfast Posts: 823	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Here's my product - I don't call it either long form or documentary but its certainly longer than 40minutes. Bridal prep and Church gathering - 10mins Ceremony - 40/50mins After church - 5mins Afternoon - 10/15mins Speeches - 30/40/50mins Dancing - 15/20mins Total Anywhere from 1hr 45 to 2hrs 30mins generally I then do a highlights trailer of 4/5minutes.

February 26th, 2014, 07:39 AM	#65
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Hi Clive Thanks for that..that's basically what my DVD's come out to and I figured that was long form. I'm just curious to figure out what Danny uses in his videos which are normally on 20 minutes? George!!! Great to hear from you again and nice that you are settled ..I can see a few French wedding videos in the making once you get a full grasp of the language!! I assume your trusty JVC 700 is there with you?? Chris

February 26th, 2014, 09:42 AM	#66
George Kilroy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 699	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Hi Chris, les français est à venir sur, but I have no intention of getting back into weddings either here or back in UK. In fact I turned down one for last weekend and turned away two enquiries this week for future dates. I'm more interested in weeding now than weddings. I am getting as much if not more pleasure repairing our leaky 200 year old french barn as I did slaving over a warm computer. That said I am still keeping my hand and eye in, I've left most of my shooting kit back in UK as I am traveling back every few weeks to do the training & induction videos that are now the mainstay of my video work. Seems to be working out at the moment so long as cheap airlines keep flying from my local airport. I've had to pass my theater and schools work to a former local competitor who I'm friendly with as quick turn-around and bulk duplication and distribution is just not feasible. C'est la vie as we say here in La Belle France.

February 26th, 2014, 09:44 AM	#67
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? Clive and Chris - your end product timings also sound the same as mine, which I describe as long form documentary. Roger

February 26th, 2014, 12:37 PM	#68
Kyle Root Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Decatur, AL Posts: 881	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? I helped out some friends of mine at a Bridal fair in Tennessee over the weekend, and I as I was talking to the brides to be, several of them specifically mentioned that they really liked the short form videos and not full length ones. I just thought that was interesting. There really is no right or wrong in all this, it's just a matter of knowing what your client wants from you, and then working to deliver that, if you can. __________________ Kyle KR Productions; www.kyleroot.com

February 26th, 2014, 01:14 PM	#69
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? There definitely seems to be more interest in cinematic short form in the US generally. Perhaps it is more of an instant gloss product that fits in with what appears to be a more showy wedding industry than certainly the UK has. Roger

February 26th, 2014, 02:38 PM	#70
Clive McLaughlin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Belfast Posts: 823	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? But back to the question - the people who deliver short form (I mean 30/40minutes) are they editing and removing some of the speeches? I can't get my head around any bride being OK with us taking editorial decisions over what parts of speeches to cut. But some people surely must. Does anyone on here cut some of the speeches for their end product???

February 27th, 2014, 10:32 AM	#72
Brendan McElwaine New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 15	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? I currently deliver long-form but my aim is to eventually deliver short-form. If/when that happens, I would also include a separate disc/usb stick with uncut speeches and uncut(ish) ceremony. From watching Stillmotion stuff over the years I believe that's what they do also.

March 2nd, 2014, 07:54 AM	#75
Peter Riding Major Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Reading Berkshire UK Posts: 872	Re: Do brides want shallow depth of field? There seems to be a subconscious dread afflicting both videographers and clients that the yet to be shot wedding video may be hours and hours of unwatchable junk. Rather like they fear that when it comes to stills that the posed photo session will be 2 hours of forced cheesy smiling at the camera. The reality is anything but. In the UK at any rate. The great majority of weddings are civil ceremonies and these will seldom be more than 20 minutes. 30 minutes tops even if you leave the cams running throughout the register signing. And within those 20 minutes are lots of golden moments which cannot be done justice by just including a few seconds - or even worse time-shifting the audio. Some speeches may be marathons but typically they also will seldom be over 20 minutes in total. And again lots of golden moments including guest reactions. What else? 2 minutes of pre-wedding tops - unless you bring your slider along in which case you'll really bore the socks off the audience :- ) 2 minutes photoshoot highlights. 2 minutes reception scene setting. 2 minutes cocktail hour highlights. 3 minutes 1st dance. What else? Oh yes 200 minutes torturing unwilling guests into making meaningless messages :- ) 200 minutes getting in everyones way with your steadycam on the dance floor whilst you dazzle them with a light late in the evening :- ) So what is so ..... well ..... long about longform? And which bits do the clients really not want to have for their family history? Newsflash to shortform clients: your friends do NOT want to watch your wedding video whether its 5 minutes or 5 hours. They may tolerate a bit if they think they might see themselves. But thats about it. So don't worry about them; just focus on what you'll want for the future. Unfortunately for us the vendors all these things like shortform and shallow depth of field are highly seductive for clients at the research stage. Even though we know in our heart of hearts that longform is where its at in the longrun. Editing shortform etc can be fun but thats for our benefit not really for theirs. Discuss :- ) Pete p.s. I'll just put my tin helmet on!