GH4 Wedding Video
 

So, the GH4 samples and hands on reviews are piling in now.

What do we think?

Heres a wedding specific example.

The guy isn’t the best camera operator in fairness.

Shot at 4k, delivered in 1080.


For me, the fact it has very little moire and aliasing and zebras and focus peaking is almost enough as it is nevermind 4k.

4k is reported as being a little under 1minute per GB. So I doubt I would shoot full service and speeches in 4k.

But everything else - possibly!

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

It seemed to be a clouded sky so no harsh highlights to deal with but it looked like nice clean and sharp image, the only thing I would worry about is how it would match with my other camera's, if it would be too sharp (even as downconverted 1080p) I couldn't use this camera in combination with my other not 4k ones and I don't plan to upgrade all my camera to 4k for at least another few years, so that's something to consider.

Like I said in another gh4 thread is that this camera still is a dslr, still no ND's, no inbuild stabilisation like the Olympus omd series have, no stepless exposure changes (unless you get some samyang cinelenses but then you"ll loose autofocus, lensstabilisation).

This camera is a good evolution of a already great camera, the zebra's, possibility to crop the footage (but from what I have seen so far the footage just seems softer when you do that) and better low light performance (which they claim is better but I'd like to see a comparison at 6400 iso between the gh3/4) are 3 of the main features that could justify me to get a gh4 body only.

But honestly, at this moment I"d prefer just my gh3 in combination with the sony rx10, that last one has a nd and stepless exposure changes, stabilisation, zebra's, good incamera sound etc, I have been complaining a lot about the slow zoom but it does have a wide to long constant f-stop reach so you don't need to switch lenses (well you can't :) but at least you got a focal length choice), it only can't do very shallow dof shots like you can with a f1.4 lens. if you deliver in 1080p I"m sure the rx10 can deliver a image close to what you see in that weddingvideo but it does have the advantage of having features and functionality a "real" videocamera has.

At this moment I would be happier even with a Olympus omd em10 and it's 3 axis camera stabilization, that would be more useful for me currently then 4k, even if it only could do 30p and has a not so great codec, but for any smooth stable closeups and beautyshots handheld with a 75mm prime or macro lens due to its in camera stabilization, that would be a function in camera I could use more then all those extra pixels.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I'd really like to see some graded footage (I hope footage isn't graded).

The camera's clarity and sharpness is great and all but the footage looks too clean. The footage still looks like dslr footage and the dynamic range is very poor.

Also would like to see the low light capabilities of the camera.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Maybe that's because the gh4 is a dslr? :)

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Yeah I know but they've been pushing the whole 4K thing like it's going to revolutionize the way DSLRs shoot video. 4K doesn't change much except in brand name if the footage can't be pushed beyond cropping, especially with a $3,000 price point. I guess it would sell to consumers though :)

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

the quality is stunning. no maybes and no buts. The colleague must be a still photographer, the clip is fresh , even if he was "trying too hard" with the wides and the slider, the stills "philosophy" of telling the story, but the quality is (simply put) stunning. Like another poster said it will probably match only another GH4 for multiple. But from that quality there is no coming back. it's a new era, people : way ahead of my EX1 (not even close) , better than my ea50 , in another planet compared to the small sensors (all of them). Now if we distribute on DVD then I believe that the quality will still be stunning, on blur-ray as well , on youtube of course , on private flash cards just MP4 and still stunning.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

You can always put a 4k sticker onto your camera :)

Agreed but I thought Dan's footage of the rx10 (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-nxc...ml#post1835979) looked just as good and that's "only" 1080p and has a smaller sensor, I still want to see some footage in other more demanding light, the wedding sample was shot in a perfect environment for any camera, a cloudy sky that blocks any direct sunlight.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I can't believe this video is being used as official Panasonic promotion.

0:17 slider shot - is he focussed on the reflected over exposed chandelier rather that the dress???
0:25 zipper shot - really dull and underexposed
0:59 bride/groom meetup - he skipped her turning around. A mistake was obviously made that had to be taken out
1:26 pull down to the car - some left/right jolts either by camera operator or a poor stabiliser plugin interpreting something wrongly.
1:32 highlights very blown out! The GH4 has zebras right? He could have at least tried to do SOMETHING with it in post.
1:40 table top shots again all seem a little dull


I don't think this has been graded at all. Perhaps because the guy doesn't have the expertise. Perhaps because Panasonic want to be honest about what they are selling.

In fairness, on Zacuto, the Panasonic rep said he didn't want to give the impression the GH4 would have fantastic range. I certainly wasn't expecting it anyway.

Like Noa, I wan't to see low light stuff and some comparisons.

Noa, if you want it to match, maybe it would match ok with the Sony AX100?

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I noticed these user errors as well, not exactly good demo material but some shots outside did look stunning, but like you said a bit weird that this is used as a panasonic promo. Maybe they wanted to bring something out in a hurry to get weddingvideographers ordering the camera.

About the camera matching with the sony, I have no idea as I have not shot with any 4k camera. It is just something that would worry me, I guess for people that use Canon 5d/7d alike camera's should have a reason to worry, even though they do have a nice look it's no secret the image is softer and lacks fine detail, unless you'd start shooting in raw with the ml hack but that's not an easy workflow for weddings. It's something to consider when moving to 4k to be sure your 1080p camera's will match up.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Its all starting to bother me a little. Even my 6D is looking soft these days and leaving me feeling under quality. My 550D is nearly unbearably soft.

But the file size is the thing that is most concerning for me.

But tbh, I'd only go 4k for consumer work and selective parts of the day. For the vast majority of my wedding dvd product I wouldn't be worried about 4k.

But I would like my highlights to be that level of quality.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I shot with a 550d as well and compared to my sony cx730 the resolution difference is apparent, my panasonic gh3 produces a sharper image then my sony cx and my sony rx10 is about the same as my gh3/g6. Currently I only use my 2 sony cx730 together but I happily mix my rx10/gh3/g6 footage together without any problems. Probably a 4k GH4 would do fine as well when used in a 1080p project but a raw 4k file I used recently did not play realtime in my nle so that wouldn't be fun editing, but you could always shoot 1080p with the gh4. I will let it pass for the time being and see what other weddingshooters do with it.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Im not convinced all this sharpness and 4k is the way to go for weddings.
Espcially the closeup shots on a brides face (imagine 4k closup of the last bride you worked withs face on a 50 inch screen)
I like the lack of sharpness and detail my 5Dmk3 gives me. Its just about right I feel.
Combined with the shallow DOF of full frame I feel it just might be making brides look as good as they can look , and any better detail could in effect be counter productive.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

You" be using blur filters to smooth out all those imperfections in her face for sure in 4K. :)

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

+1

The dreamy look is what sells in my opinion .... everyone wants to look good in video. Nobody wants their imperfections amplified.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I know this has been said before but i think its very important. How many clients are going to be searching out 4k video, realistically? I have been filming professionally for almost two years now and have yet to sell a wedding film on blu-ray! People hardly invest in a blu-ray player let alone a 4k set up.

I was far from impressed with the footage from the gh4, the operator definitely didn't do the camera any favours either! I believe it is in many videographer's nature to over analyze the video we produce. Is upgrading all equipment to 4k standards going to get you more clients at a higher price? Not likely. A good camera operator who can predict where he needs to be, at the time he needs to be there, with the right focal length, and sharp focus. That camera operator will be the one attracting clients.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

There will come a moment where it all will be 4K, but only because you have no other choice when you upgrade your camera's, it's just a next step in camera evolution, 1080p only camera's will slowly vanish, just like dv camera's did when the transition to hdv occured.

You even might compare the magnitude of change from sd to hdv with 1080p to 4K, as long as you stayed on dvd a hdvcamera was just a ilittle sharper then dv camera when viewed on a crt screen, often you hardly noticed any difference. But once viewed on the right screen and in the right format the difference was obvious.

On a dvd and a 1080p screen full HD and 4k will be difficult to tell apart, some 4k camera might be a bit sharper as opposed to 1080p camera's, but once you start viewing it on these massive screens it becomes much more obvious, the only question remains is, how long will it take before all people have 55+ inch 4K monitors in their living room?

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

A lot on here are talking about how it will match up, and what the need is for 4k for weddings. But surely most of you, like me, do the occasional corporate work. It would certainly be a good idea to up your quality for instances like that. Use the GH4 to shoot 1080 at weddings, and still have 4k as an option for certain eventualities.

It is only £1300 body only....

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Also, I found it interesting to note how big a 4k tv you need to buy to even see the difference at a distance of 2/3 meters

http://www.rtings.com/images/resolut...a-hd-chart.png

The shops certainly aren't going to tell consumers this!

http://www.rtings.com/images/resolut...a-hd-chart.png

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I have done a occasional corporate job the past years but gave up on it eventually and doing weddings only right now. I see 4K only really useful for high end corporate clients and for those you don't show up with gh4 but you hire a red camera and a crew.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

And a lot of people sit too far away from their 1080p tellies. I have read elsewhere on DVInfo discussion about whether to use a DVD or BD as the delivery medium, with most people, in the UK at least still owning a DVD player rather than a BD player.

I wonder how many here own a 4K TV, 1000? 100? 10,000? I bet not a lot.


I do my own "strictly amateur" wildlife videos. 4K would be lovely, and £1250 a snip. But then a 4K monitor/TV and a 4K projector. Pricey!


Ron

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I want to watch a football match on a huge 80 inch screen in 4k from only one wide camera angle covering the whole pitch!

Now theres a use for 4k!

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I just did two interviews today where having one camera instead of two would have been very welcome in a tight area. Sure I could have shot with just one camera and then re-shot the entire interview to get the different framing, but then I wouldn't be able to cut smoothly between them because the head & eyes would be in a different place, the sentence could have been different where I wanted to cut etc.

Re-framing is the real big one for me.

Just doing a 105% or a little rotation is Ok for some things (and yes I use that too), but I do miss the ability to reframe in post like we did a few years back, or I still do today when I know I'm only filming for DVD. The web has really made people expect full HD nowadays, so getting away with delivering even a reframed 720p is no longer viable for many corporate gigs.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Fair enough Dave in your applied field it seems quite useful to have it.

(Sorry guys for any confusion, I accidentally replaced my last post with another point)

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Is this a discussion on the merits of the GH4 or 4K in general? If the latter, then I agree that 4K isn't an essential upgrade, far from it. Wait a little and Canon and Nikon will no doubt incorporate it now the doors been open so chances are a future upgrade will have it anyway. No one should buy the GH4 right now for 4K alone unless for petty bragging rights - commercial value is minimum to none in my opinion.

That said, as an owner of the GH3 and GH2, I'm interested in the GH4 for improvements beyond 4K, like focus peaking, low light and a flatter cine profile among other things. How much I shoot 4K will be down to the Wedding. If I'm being asked to provide stills from the video, then 4K has its place. For Marryokes, which are internet only I can see the benefits, either for future proofing or for resizing. There's also an idea floating about that you can convert 4:2:0 4K footage into 4:2:2 HD footage. How successful this is in reality, I don't know - I'm sceptical but intrigued by it. What I'm not in doubt is that I shall be giving the GH4 serious consideration when released.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Same difference to me. Any of the other features wouldnt cause me to want to change cameras. I would of course upgrade from a GH3 but not from a 5dmk3, I dont think.
Its such an ordeal to change over Ill avoid it if I can at all.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I agree; if I didn't have a GH3, I wouldn't go for the GH4 either. Besides Canon will join the 4K game soon enough. For me the GH4 isn't really about 4K, its just another feature I can use.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I am not sure whether to be pleased or not to see that I am just on the cusp of seeing benefit from upgrading our current 60" TV that we watch from about 2m. To justify the upgrade I only need to move the settee nearer to the set although apart from home movies I cannot see any 4K viewing materials being available for many years.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I'm always a bit skeptical of charts and graphs that attempt to quantify what you can and can't see with your own eyes....

Whether the upgrade to 4K is evident to the "average Joe" or not is immaterial - if YOU can see the benefits in image quality, it might be worth it, depending on your pocketbook! I suspect that In 3-5 years, low rez screens of all sizes (from a 4" cell phone to a 1000" video wall) will be hard to find... Sure, there will probably be the equivalent of 720 "HD" screens, that meet a low end spec that "average Joe" can't tell the difference in, but generally people can see when a screen is "crisp" and easy on the eyes, and when it isn't...

I'm not thrilled that 4K is coming so quickly, and I think "HD" will be "fine" for most viewing purposes for a LONG, LONG time... but looking at the output from 4K cameras, even on 1080 screens, it's hard to ignore the image quality... and I don't think it's something you can "chart"!!

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Soooo.... a 60" 4K TV at the end of the bed would make a difference then :)

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Not sure if you've all seen this elsewhere, but I'm adding it here for those who haven't...

Zacuto's First Look: The Panasonic GH4 | Zacuto USA

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I did a survey on a bridal forum sometime ago and most brides had no idea what high def was and said that they really couldn't tell the difference even on fairly big screen TV's. We have to remember that brides look at content not resolution!!

Clive's chart is very interesting ...Come on, who in their right mind sits 3' away from a giant screen. In our living room I have a paltry 32" LCD TV and the nearest couch is maybe 3 metres away.

I wonder what the medical profession would say about sitting for ages in front of a 100" screen only 2 or 3' away from it??

However regardless of whether brides will actually notice the difference, the facility to be able to crop a badly composed shot would be a huge asset!!

Just for interest does anyone know the current limit one can crop 1080 footage so the viewer would not see any major difference when rendered down to SD ? Technically HD is "supposed" to be 4 times the resolution of SD so a 25% crop of a frame technically is possible without any perceived loss by the viewer? So with 4K down to SD DVD could one crop right down to just 1/8th of the picture??

Chris

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Err.... well.... how far away from the TV will you be sat? < grin >

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Hi Dave

Nice one ...seriously though, I have never found cropping really practical as you lose resolution so fast .. the simple expression " I need to go in just a tiny bit more and it will be perfect" ends up as a nightmare even doing a very mild crop on 1080 and rendering out to our PAL DVD format. I'm not sure how much better a crop in 4K is going to be as cropped image even twice as sharp as it was can still look crappy.

Compared to pretty standard DSLR's with anything from 12 - 36 million pixels we can safely cut a chunk out of a still image and blow it up without any adverse effects! I think I'll wait until we get to that level on video ...sorta Ultra, Ultra, Ultra, Super High Def ... I guess by then still cameras will be quoted in GigaPixels??

Chris

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I believe there is a difference, and it's this:

If you're editing 1080p on a 1080p timeline and then zoom in you DO lose resolution.

When you export this 1080p sequence to DVD it's merely resizing from the final image, i.e. an image with lost resolution, so it carries through to the DVD. The NLE isn't smart enough to un-zoom, figure out the crop you wanted and then export to DVD.

If you're editing 1080p on to an SD timeline and scaling the 1080p down to SD for the edit then you can of course zoom in a little without loss of resolution. There may still be an apparent loss of sharpness due to the export not downsizing quite as much but in reality it will be minimal. This is what I do if I know I'm definitely only going to be shipping DVDs (i.e. a dance recital) because it gives the most flexibility in post.

So what about 4K?

I don't expect many people to be editing 4K footage on a 4K timeline any time soon if they are also mixing it with 1080p footage, so in reality you're going to be downsizing the 4K to fit a 1080p timeline, just like editing 1080p to an SD timeline.

Zooming in on 4K won't lose quality provided (and this is a BIG thing to watch) you're actually zooming on the native footage and not 4K that's already been downsized to 1080p by your NLE prior to zooming, otherwise it's zooming on the 1080p scaled version and not the 4K version. There is a difference!

When ever you want to zoom you'll need to make sure that this clip is not being resized automatically to fit the frame, but is added at 100% (meaning you will automatically be getting a crop) then zoom OUT manually to get the part you want.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Actually, that isn't the case. At least with premiere. Someone mentioned it in another forum and I had to test it to believe it.

I put a 1080 clip on a 720 timeline without downscaling it. Then I put a 1080 clip on a 1080 timeline and zoomed in 150%. So the framing was identical to the 720 timeline example.

Rendered them both to a 720 file, compared results and what do you know... they were the exact same. Even with pixel peeping. I would not have assumed that's how it worked without testing it. Results may vary depending on NLE.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Place a 1080p file on a 720p timeline and downscale (size to fit) and THEN zoom in...... you will find that Premiere Pro first downscales it to 720 and then zooms in on the 720p version, not the 1080p version, at least it did up to CS6 which is the latest version I have. This is why you need to make sure that any over sized clip (i.e. 4K on a 1080p timeline) is sized from it's native resolution and not first downscaled and then resized.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I agree. We (all) said the same things about the HDV (remember?) , all of us, myself included. By then was the "what do I need HDV for when there are no TVsets for it?"
Boy was I wrong!
4K is here to stay , no doubts about it.
if only we had a better distribution media: DVD are way obsolete, Blu-ray was killed by the greed and all the idiotic restrictions that scare people away. MP4 on flash is our only option, and all considered is way more reliable than any CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc that last a year tops.
So for me custom flash cards (with my logo and everything) are the next thing , and maybe it will last for a decade or so.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

Sorry if I misunderstood this, but are you saying that the discs you ship don't last more that a year? Time to buy better discs I think. Unless you're storing them in sunlight, extreme heat or cold and aren't printing to them with corrosive inks then DVD & Blu-ray last a LOT longer than a year and 10 years should be no problem. If yours are only lasting "a year tops" then you are doing something wrong.

Flash OTOH is proving to be fairly unreliable, We had another thread on this not too long back with several people having (name brand) flash drives failing very quickly.

My 256MB (yes MB!) from the 90s still works, but I have several 8GB, 16GB and 32GB sticks bought in the last couple of years that don't. A friend of mine runs a mail order company and is seeing around 25% failure with warranty periods. So just be aware of this and make sure you're in a position to replace them when needed, since flash drives also cost more than optical discs, so it also eats in to your bottom line.

Having said that, notwithstanding the reliably issues, flash is certainly one of the better options going forward, but so are download options for those with fast connections. As more people move to devices (tablets) with no USB ports and no optical drives, they are expecting to be able to download and view without the hassle of physical media.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

What exactly are consumers going to be able to watch on their 4K TV sets? Apart from wedding videos on flash drives from forward thinking videographers or home movies there will be zero 4K material available. Broadcast 4K is a non-starter due to bandwidth demands whether cable, terrestrial or even satellite. There is no 4K disc standard & it will take years to agree one.

Re: GH4 Wedding Video
 

I seem to remember the same questions of HD. 4K will come, though not likely in free to air channels any time soon.

H265 will reduce bandwidth requirements and other channels of distribution will be developed to fill the need.

Whenever the customer is willing to pay for something, someone will find a way of delivering it (and charging for it).

It's not going to happen over night, and i suspect the UK will be on the trailing edge of this, as usual, but it will happen.